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How exactly does one seize a ship intact?

Cute.

To use a statement written by a writer now sadly deceased...

"Young man," Harkaman reproved, "the conversation was between Lord Trask and myself. And when somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means.
What do you mean, Lord Trask?"

Had a certain someone said "Why would anyone want to do something that foolish." I would have smiled and taken that as an invitation to explain myself rather than be told I was being an idiot. That it came as it did without warning, was akin to taking a warm or hot shower only to have a certain mischievous kid turn the hot water valve off. Not that my kid did that to me... ;)

That having been said, I would not take it upon myself to tell another individual "You're running a fool traveller universe." While I may not agree with someone's interpretations of the game, or agree with one game system's rendition of the rules and claim that anyone who utilizes a system I don't like is an idiot/fool/jerk/(you all may easily get my drift here) - I don't think it helps to place people on the defensive about how they want to run their campaigns. I wouldn't like it done to me (obviously) and I certainly wouldn't feel good about doing it to someone else.

So, nuff said on the personal stuff.
That is very cute, but still doesn't address the flaws in your plan or why your TU has such to my eyes dangerous protocols. Also, not a young man, and it wasn't an A & B conversation, it was gabbing on the commons. Not the same thing.

Now, as to questioning either TUs or plans, I come from a very different culture I guess as in my culture questions are not only desired, but expected. If an idea is never questioned it is a weak idea waiting to fail in some embarrassing way. For me questioning and even a smidge of harsh words make for a better output. I need to be questioned and tested, it makes me and my creative works so much better.

So, with that in mind, My Lord Trask, why are there protocols requiring opening a "plague" ship in your TU?
 
snip...

And, it sets its own limits. Organized crime that profits from the occasional tramp freighter who's captain won't pay his insurance will tend to get overlooked; organized crime that starts affecting the profit margins of the powerful - that tends to attract unhealthy attention.

Like mercenaries paid by the megacorps as "regulators". The original reason for the Pinkertons.
 
In other words, organized crime. I'd quibble with a number of details - Magnus's observations are spot on - but the central idea is that people working together with adequate intelligence-gathering, a well-thought-out plan (this one needs a little tweaking, but the broad concept of running some sort of a grift or swindle is a good one), and the right people bought off or intimidated can accomplish quite a lot. Unstated but assumed is that these longshoreman have means to act with relative impunity - officials bribed to look the other way, maybe, or a larger criminal heirarchy with the resources and means to obstruct justice by other methods - and that they have means to extract value from their prize once it's in hand. Organized crime is really the only way for any sort of piracy to work for any length of time.

And, it sets its own limits. Organized crime that profits from the occasional tramp freighter who's captain won't pay his insurance will tend to get overlooked; organized crime that starts affecting the profit margins of the powerful - that tends to attract unhealthy attention.

regards to "Magnus's observations are spot on" - I'd have to disagree depending on what you're referring to.

What crew of 4 men, in charge of bringing in a multi-ton craft between ports, is going to think "hey, this is the worst plague in the universe, let's dive this cursed ship into the heart of a sun and destroy the pathogen forever!"? What human being, when given a choice between giving into despair or fighting for one more second's worth of breathing - will say "Gee, I'm sick, I will make it so no one can rescue me?"

Ok, ok there are people like that. *grin* But there are also people who are NOT like that.

That is why it is a crap shoot. It is easy to have do or die mentalities when playing a character, because you can always roll up a new one and hit the "reset" button (so to speak) thereby continuing game play. But what if you were in a single elimination tournament game where, once you lose your character, you can't play in the next scenario and you don't get a refund on your money if your character dies? Might you not be less inclined towards any behavior that will lose you your character?

As for the computer issue?

I've been working with computers in a production environment for close to 30 years now. I've worked in corporate environments right down to small business environments. With drive imaging technologies we have today, along with hardware solutions we have today that can take files off password protected computers with NO problem (encrypted files are a different beastie to be certain, but encryption has its own difficulties in an operational environment) - I do not doubt that a sufficiently trained individual (not team, INDIVIDUAL) could hack into a single network that is the ship, and penetrate it to where he could own it. This is NOT a technically hard thing for the man to do providing he has unfettered access to the network, and is working with a familiar environment - which standardized ships would come under the heading of (in my opinion). Couple this with foresight and the ability to preload a drive(memory core) with anything and everything necessary to assume control of a ship, and that is the beginning of a "plot".

I can't begin to point out some of the flaws here. First, what happens when you need version 1.05 of software for operational control of a device, only to find out that you have version 3.2 and it isn't backwards compatible? What if repairs were done with non-standard parts, but that these parts/systems would be registered with a shipyard so they knew how to handle the issue? Yes, there is that, but then there is the ability to strip files from memory cores without having to have Normal security access.

In the end? If the idea sparks another idea for someone, then my post served its purpose - to share concepts that others might adapt, mangle, transmute, or what have you, and have fun presenting it for use in someone else's campaign.

An old Grace Slick lyric comes to mind...

"Sometimes they say the only way is to really sing that song
Sometimes they say you're singing that way too loud too long
And if they can't make up their minds then I think I'll make up mine
Whatever way I feel is the only way I'm gonna sing that song
And if people don't seem to like it that's O.K. let 'em go
Some day they'll sing a song of their own"
 
Over complicating the planning is likely to get the operation hung up at some point. Pilfering containers and smuggling contraband is probably the preferred method by most crime organizations.

Understanding protocol and standard procedures would allow you to manipulate events and subvert ship systems whereas independents' security might range from sloppy to paranoid, and may be customized.
 
Hey Hal, I am right here...I not dead yet, I don't want to go on the cart. I feel hap

Well, aside from the pretending that I am not present and waiting for the sort of answer you gave to third party, it is nice that you tried to explain human nature, but you neglected my main issue. I have no quibble with most humans being selfish monsters with no concerns but their own skin rendering a plague ship readily accessible in a desperate hope of rescue. I agree, most humans forget (since you dig quotes :)): The Needs of the Many Outwiegh the Need of the Few...or the One. We are scum like that mostly, but that is exactly why we have laws to enforce that beautiful meme of Citizen Sacrifice.

And it is those laws I question our Navigator violating on the "suggestion" of some replacement noob cargomaster who isn't even in the chain of command and thus free and clear in the Admiralty Courts for selfish actions, when the same Navigator can be tried for endangering the Imperium (or what ever leading state). I mean in both cases his/her/its life is on the line. Die here or die in the Execution chamber/airlock of INS Bounder, seems the better choice to go down with a clean record. Look at the rep of that junior officer who capped himself on RMS Titanic, the family is still salty about the shame he brought upon them with that act. Human nature is not officer nature, they train that out.

Your answer on the computer cores has me confused. It seems on one hand you think it is easy, and then you make the point that it could be terribly difficult. Which is it? I said hard since as you pointed out 4 Sophonts splitting a multi-million CrImp vessel don't seem the type to A) give unfettered access to a noob cargomaster we don't even know (and again this assumes this scumbag even got hired on as crew, but more on that later) and B) being typical struggling Travellers not having jury-rigged the hell out of our ship, good luck with that Vishunu J/2 nexus packet handler, it can be hinky to configure on a cold reboot. :devil:. Now, I won't defend this one super hard since one of my oldest friends was an IT Consultant and I do know what a user can do to a system with a mere misplaced Fonts folder. But then again that was for a publishing company and not a multi-mega crimp starship that is also our house. (Which unlike a certain Capt. M. Reynolds, we damned well lock the ship when we leave.)

Now setting the Wayback Machine to Step 2-4. Now I already explained how we deal with Step 4, but thing is what does our casing gent do when we say, sure got your work papers and loader certs up to date? And then hire him as temp help with a promise to look him up next stop if he does good work? Now, we treat him well and respectfully, but he has a watcher and does not leave the cargo decks without an escort, you understand some dirtbags like to try and case a ship, so only crew are allowed to roam unescorted, would you like a Not-Crystal Pepsitm or a samich, got "hamcheese" and "fishsalad"?

Curious how your dirtbags deal with that kink? If you would.

The Steps wherein the "plague" starts appearing is also fraught with intelligent captains ordering an Immeadiate quarentine to prevent its further spread.

Look, I got no personal issue with you Hal, Hells I am not even all that salty about the Yellow Card, I do tend to whether meaning to or not talk my way into those, so I eat them like a right proper gentleman and Imperial noble should. It is after all the adult and honorable thing to do. Now that 13 Step Plan, that I have issues with. I mean aside from hating pirates being all Go Navy! that I am, I as both a Referee and Player think it is a Zanatos (sp?) Gambit and those only work when scripted or the dice-gods love you that day. It seems to rely on too much going perfect, which is serious flaw if you are going to commit crime and by the Lords of Space, my good man, I am going to excelle at it!

So, please, defend your plan, Herr Capitan if you wish my support. Right now, I am seeing a lot of downsides and possibly outsides, as in us outsides a Navy airlock. :nonono:
 
SECONDED!

Turn it into a free trader adventure and get some average players to playtest it. It's the only way to find out if the plan will work. ;)


Hans
Indeed, the Good and Knowledgable Hans, is correct.

If we are lucky I can get my meatspace crew to run it and give you some real after action feedback, but I must warn you appearently we were known on the Behind the Screen TORG Dev Forum as "The Group That Breaks Stuff". We are very proud of that title, and we even tossed in a bit for T5 or why Teleport can bypass Black Globes. :devil: [VR], Very Ruthless, we ain't met a rule set we can't exploit or plan we can't wrench. Our Motto: "Everybody into The Trap!"

And, we will do it for free..and a share of the loot, even if only a credit. :smirk:
 
snip...



...Now, we treat him well and respectfully, but he has a watcher and does not leave the cargo decks without an escort, you understand some dirtbags like to try and case a ship, so only crew are allowed to roam unescorted, would you like a Not-Crystal Pepsitm or a samich, got "hamcheese" and "fishsalad"?

On my crews, that minder is usually the professional killer in the party. The one who always gets the dirty jobs. Our own "Dirty Harry".

Your minders might vary, but we usually let the professional killer have the supercargo job, so he feels useful about ship. Don't want him bored and playing the engines, might break something we haven't got spares for.
 
Ah, the joys of the professional killer.

On my crews, that minder is usually the professional killer in the party. The one who always gets the dirty jobs. Our own "Dirty Harry".

Your minders might vary, but we usually let the professional killer have the supercargo job, so he feels useful about ship. Don't want him bored and playing the engines, might break something we haven't got spares for.
Thank you, Force Commander, I knew we hired you for a reason. Hadn't thought about self-sabatoge as a method of defeating a hijacking.

Oops. Looks like the sniggly-fritizztis went on the blink. Well, damn we gonna die. :devil:
 
regards to "Magnus's observations are spot on" - I'd have to disagree depending on what you're referring to. ..."

I don't want to offend: poking holes too vigorously in someone's interesting ideas can sometimes be felt as an attack. And, I don't want to take the thread off on a tangent by debating a single plan over several posts. However, to be fair to both you and Magnus, I'll note some of my concerns. If you don't agree, I respect that and we'll move on from there - no divine law says my viewpoints are always right.

Your specific plan in this case involves a simulated biological emergency. Basic idea of spooking the captain is sound - a good grift involves getting your target to think with his desires or his fears rather than with his rational mind. Some concerns about the details because whether the details work is universe-dependent: some gamemasters or even some players might not have circumstances that let you contaminate the engineer's food unless you find some way to suborn the steward as well as the cargomaster. On a Subsidized Merchant, for example, the layout makes it easy for most of the crew to eat apart from the passengers; the passengers'll see the steward and medic regularly, see the engineer as he passes through from front to back, may only see the captain/pilot if he deigns to leave the forward area and visit with them. What is a cargomaster, by the way? I thought it was a dockside position, but you're describing it as a crew position.

Anyway, some universes or player groups may likewise have a medic and/or medical equipment competent to recognize the biological you're using - for many of them, a good microscope and a good medical database in the computer is all you need. If the medic recognizes it, the game is up: he'll know exactly what the risks are and aren't, and you can't spook the captain with a faux plague when he's getting competent guidance from his medic. You either have to suborn or disable the medic, or gamble on a true plague with all the risks that entails. At the point where you're suborning two crew - or three, if you count the cargomaster - you already control a fair portion of the crew of the typical small freighter and a complex grift is pointless; just suborn the engineer and take the ship in flight the old-fashioned way.

But, for the purpose of this discussion, we'll stipulate that there is an organism that simulates a more virulent disease and that cannot be identified with the resources available to a ship in flight (and, by extension, that the more virulent disease likewise cannot be identified except by symptoms with the resources aboard the ship). And, we'll stipulate that by some stratagem you've managed to infect the engineer and captain (the latter being easiest since he might have a practice of taking meals with the passengers, not uncommon on passenger ships).

Step 11 runs into problems. Unless you have suborned the medic, you have no control over who goes into cold sleep for medical reasons: only the medic and the captain have that authority. You also have no control over the captain: if he takes ill, he can devolve command to the navigator, pop some passenger out of cold sleep for a free ride, and take the berth himself. Might be some liability issues involved in waking a person into an epidemic situation but, if the guy wants to live bad enough, he'll deal with the fallout later. Or, the ship could have enough unoccupied berths to serve the need - we don't always fill all our beds on these trips. In my TU, giving Fast drug to someone with an active infection could be potentially fatal - there's no assurance that the pathogen will respond to the fast drug the same way your body does, and the medic knows that. But, that's quibbling: point is, you've managed to infect captain and engineer, taking them out of the opposing lineup, and whether they're in cold sleep or under fast drug or delirious in their quarters is just a technicality.

Step 12 is seriously problematic: there are very few pathogens that are both food-borne and contact-borne1, fewer still that will present the same symptoms regardless of the means of transmission. By stipulating a faux pathogen that can be fed to others and can also transmit through the skin (your presumed method of making the vacc suits infectious), AND stipulating that it creates symptoms like a plague disease they'll recognize but not be able to diagnose with shipboard equipment, you will be seriously stretching the credulity of any player who has much knowledge of medicine - and Traveller players are remarkably well-informed on a wide variety of subjects. It begins to look like the faux organism is a man-made, very carefully tailored organism to be able to achieve all of those requirements, and tailoring an organism, while not impossible, suggests a much higher level of criminal sophistication than your standard grift would imply. Moreover, it's the kind of sophistication likely to attract serious official attention, so it's not something an organized crime group is likely to engage in unless the whole system is so seriously corrupted that they can do such things with relative impunity.

1(Airborne presents the same problems as contact-borne with the added caveat that it's hard to keep an airborne organism in the air in a very still enclosed environment like an unused vacc suit; it'd settle to surfaces. But, that again is quibbling; key point is a multivector organism that presents the same symptoms regardless of vector AND mimics a virulent organism is a stretch that will be difficult to sell to the players across from you.)

A second problem with Step 12 is it's very universe-dependent: it rests on assuming the navigators in that universe would respond as you describe them responding. In Magnus' universe, the navigator activates a biohazard routine that locks down the ship and warns everyone around that it's a plague ship. In my universe, the navigator locks himself in the bridge, locks down the maneuver drive and sets auto-routines in the computer against the possibility he might come down with and be incapacitated by the illness anyway - said autoroutines instructing the computer to broadcast a ship-in-distress/biohazard upon emergence from jumpspace along with enough details to help rescuers figure out what to do. Someone else might do something else entirely. Point is, there's no reasonable assurance the scenario ends with Anti-hijack off unless your particular universe operates that way; my scenario for example, has anti-hijack on with half of a code being broadcast with the distress signal - legitimate authorities would have the other half and be able to signal the ship to allow them on board.

(There's this neat trick my company uses: a numerical code that changes every minute, in a little digital key with a display that you carry, with the computer you want to access generating the same code on the same schedule using the same algorithm. If you don't have the key, you don't know the right code for that moment. Hacking involves getting your hands on the algorithm AND getting it timed to the algorithm in the target computer; easier is to bribe the programmer to program in a back door.)

Step 13 is one of those circular situations: to access the computer core, you need the passcodes; to get the passcodes, you need administrative access to the computer, or to some person willing to divulge them. Computer core is not accessible from passenger spaces - even a decentralized system will keep key components where only authorized personnel can get at them. Without that, there's no changing out memory cores short of cutting your way through a bulkhead - and if you can get those passcodes, then you likely can get the other codes you need to control the computer.

None of these are impossible problems. It's just that there might be more elegant solutions: for example, contriving to get a steward hired aboard who is actually a skilled hacker with knowledge of an exploit specific to that model of computer that, say, gives him access to environmental controls that allow him to adjust the atmosphere to quietly knock out the crew in the bridge and engineering space with hypoxia - or knock everyone out if he can't manage fine control. Then it's just a matter of him and his confederates in their O2 masks overpowering the medic, cutting their way into those spaces, tossing the corpses into one of the crew staterooms and pulling the computer switch you discussed - preferably before they hit jump, 'cause that's the ideal time to throw any possible pursuit by jumping someplace other than where the ship was intended to go. Or, have your little cuckoo-nestling steward feed a sedative to the crew in their meal and launch the takeover that way. Or arrange with your dockworker confederates to load a cargo with a hidden explosive beneath the bridge - assuming the layout of the ship permits such things and you can manage to suborn customs enough to engineer such an operation - and have it go off as the ship is outbound before jump, with a confederate ship bearing one of those jump-nets Aramis mentioned standing by to sweep up the damaged ship and be in jump space before the engineering crew can get their wits about them.

That last screws heck out of cargo value but the ship might be repaired and sold, or passengers ransomed, or crew and passengers dropped off someplace and ship stripped for the value of its drives and power plant. I wouldn't pull that on players who owned their own ship, nor is it feasible unless you're close to the border where you can take the ship someplace sophisticated enough to milk its value without The Man showing up to spoil your profit, but it might be a foil to set shipless players down someplace where they (and their fellow passengers) need to survive by their wits.
 
(There's this neat trick my company uses: a numerical code that changes every minute, in a little digital key with a display that you carry, with the computer you want to access generating the same code on the same schedule using the same algorithm. If you don't have the key, you don't know the right code for that moment. Hacking involves getting your hands on the algorithm AND getting it timed to the algorithm in the target computer; easier is to bribe the programmer to program in a back door.).

I think I have something similar to access one my bank accounts. However, one company I worked for insisted everybody's password was kept in the office safe in case of absence and in various places people have kept their passwords written in the backs of notebooks in their desk drawer, (usually against company rules).

Also, my understanding of Vilani 'engineering' is that everything is easy to pull out and replace, they don't do repairs, which would make replacing the core easy in some areas.

Kind Regards

David
 
... Also, my understanding of Vilani 'engineering' is that everything is easy to pull out and replace, they don't do repairs, which would make replacing the core easy in some areas. ...

I know zip about Vilani engineering. Out here in the Marches, we've gotten used to doing things our own way; a lot of our smaller ships use nonstandard drives, for example. I do know that having critical elements of the ship's computer easily accessible from passenger spaces is rather high on the list of really-really bad ideas at ship design school. We're having some trouble with terrorists out here, need to take some basic precautions. In fact, the bigger shipping companies have gone to parallel architecture, where the systems accessible from the passenger spaces and the systems running the navigation and drives are physically separate within the computer and can't communicate with each other. Some of the terrorist hackers are wickedly clever; one needs to take precautions. However, I don't know whether that's filtered down to the smaller operations.
 
I know zip about Vilani engineering. Out here in the Marches, we've gotten used to doing things our own way; a lot of our smaller ships use nonstandard drives, for example. I do know that having critical elements of the ship's computer easily accessible from passenger spaces is rather high on the list of really-really bad ideas at ship design school. We're having some trouble with terrorists out here, need to take some basic precautions. In fact, the bigger shipping companies have gone to parallel architecture, where the systems accessible from the passenger spaces and the systems running the navigation and drives are physically separate within the computer and can't communicate with each other. Some of the terrorist hackers are wickedly clever; one needs to take precautions. However, I don't know whether that's filtered down to the smaller operations.

That made me smile, but I guess I shouldn't.

Regards

David
 
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