Imperial Marines and "Small Wars"

[The Oz]

You're quite correct. Current military doctrine goes kinda like this:

</font>

• 3 to 5 men = a fireteam</font>
• 2 or 3 fireteams = squad of 6-10 men</font>
• 3 to 5 squads + HQ = platoon of 40-60 men</font>
• 3 to 5 platoons + HQ = company of 100-200 men</font>

Once you get to the company level and above (sometimes even at the squad and platoon level) you may find specialist elements like heavy weapons teams, mortar squads, or who knows what all.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by The Oz:
You're quite correct. Current military doctrine goes kinda like this:

</font>

• 3 to 5 men = a fireteam</font>
• 2 or 3 fireteams = squad of 6-10 men</font>
• 3 to 5 squads + HQ = platoon of 40-60 men</font>
• 3 to 5 platoons + HQ = company of 100-200 men</font>

Once you get to the company level and above (sometimes even at the squad and platoon level) you may find specialist elements like heavy weapons teams, mortar squads, or who knows what all.

Almost off the subject but not quite, I was in my second adventure have the characters walk by a Army squad protecting Imperial property.

The fire teams I had broken down like I mentioned above with three guys in Combat Armor and gauss rifles and two guys per fire team working support with BattleDress and PGMP/FGMP.

It was more a descriptive bit than anything though really.

I can see the Marines and especially drop troops being beefed up to BattleDress and FGMPs throughout. I buy that arguement completely.

I believe on Freelance Traveller there is a white paper on planetary assaults that is very interesting as well.

Planetary Assault White Paper from Rick Stump

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
Just a quick question - How many armoured divisions does the United states have facing Canada or Mexico for that matter.
Also how many regular marine units have outdated equipment and its not being replaced.
The Imperial marines are the ELITE forces of the Imperium, Yes the units on the quiet sectors may not have Tl15 armour but they should have Tl14 armour and Tl 15 guns and all units would be trained in Battledress.
With 8000 systems in the Imperium i doubt if the imperium has enough marines for all the jobs it requires them to do (does the U.S armed forces have enough troops for what it wants to do (NO) otherwise it wouldn't be calling up reservists).
Bye.

 

[aramis]

The "All Marines are BD Troopers" argument got started during TNE, when Striker II came out, and showed ALL imperial troops in TL14 LBD or TL15 HBD, if they weren't in tanks. This was based off a little read article by LKW, which said the marines were entirely infantry, and all BD.

Which was really a way of saying "They're tougher than SW Imperial Stormtroopers...."

I'd never even heard t=oif that (IMO LUdicrous) article until well into the TNE era.

Since Loren wrote GT, he made all GT IM's have battledress skill at 1/2 point. So in GT, yes, all marines are at least trained in BD.

In CT/MT, aside from loren's article, there is little conclusive evidence of extensive BD training, and great argguments against it from a rules poit of view: BD skill is hard to get under all forms of CT/MT CG.

Under TNE, those are specifically NOT Imperial Marines, but RCES Marines.

Hopefully, T5 will revise the setting as well... Traveller is groaning under its own weight of internal inconsistancies and bad decisions along the way... (Active readers will know many of my complaints...)

And the T5 draft doesn't mandate Battle Dress as a marine default skill... (Nya! at Doug....)

T20 presented a non-BD marine, but made so that marines could be an all BD marine force...

I assume 8 man squads in Traveller: 2 striker bases! (and the CA/BD carry load of an Astrin APC)

Since most modern forces are using 3 or 4 man fire teams (more often 4) as a subfivision of the squad, I think squads will typically be 8-13 men, although for BD elites, I've allowed as low as 7 man squads: SL, 2x 3-man FT's,
Certain line army unite IMTU are using 20man squads: SL, ASL, Comm, Medic, 4x 4man FT.

I assume 10 man GrMechInf squads: 2 FT, Driver, Gunner.

IMTU, the IM's are very flexible, and operate on the "mixed forces regiment" model. I'ts not uncommon to see a regiment with its own arty, either! Compined FGMP and Back Rack Mortar units can POUR ON THE HURT.

Then again, I released upon an unsuspectin TML a Meson Beam euipped BD suit for TNE...

 

[Cheng984]

I finally found the canon reference, it is an article in the Journal of the Travellers' Aide Society NR 12. An article by Loren Wiseman. I had read it years ago, but did not recall the specifics until my copy of the traveller reprint arrived last week. In her article, A marine platoon has 59 personnel, and a line marine company has four platoons plus an 8 man command post section. Over the years I have watered down her numbers, but have realized that the designed table of organization and equipment is sound, units in combat or on long deployements would have holes causing reorganization.

 

[kaladorn]

I suppose *all* marines might not wear BD... the guys in the cav, arty, marine air wing, or those doing special duties like embassy guard, attache/aide, schools, etc. probably would not.

However, it makes perfect sense for all marines shipboard to have BD. GURPS GF was a lot more coherent in terms of basic marine training than CT/MT generation ever was. Yes, you'd get BD (and if you read the description of the types of drills you learned on, you'd appreciate why all would have it) if you were a line marine. In CT/MT, you don't get ZeroGEnv, HighGEnv, ZeroGCbt, etc. very easily either, and these are also key Marine skills. Lord knows generating a marine who has spent 4 terms in and knows laser rifle-0, vacc-suit-0 and cutlass-1 isn't unheard of, even if it is unsensible.

Marines shipboard will use BD because it is a hardshell suit that can operate in vacuum under hostile combat conditions (varying accelerations, possible boarding actions, damage control actions which require extra strength and enhanced armour/radiation shielding and indepent comms, etc).

Marines landside - most of the time this would be as a result of power projection from a ship, dropping in with Astrins and other assets and wanting to deploy maximum force in minimum time.

Remember, Marines are not, except when things aren't being organized right, a garrison unit. They hit things. They are raiders. They strike and withdraw or they take, hold, and are relieved by inbound army units who ARE designed for long term control-of-land operations and OOTW.

Sure, you might find Marines that are waiting for the Army to relieve them actually wearing lighter CES-style body armour and carrying lighter weaponry like laser rifles in a 'pacified zone', but that's at best a temporary thing until the Army arrives.

Marines are too expensive, in terms of training, to have loitering around wasting their skillset away doing garrison duty on a planet. They'll get out of practice for spaceborne and shipboard actions and orbital assaults. That's a bad use of good strikers.

And it costs too much to send soldiers among the stars (economics of CT starships...) to make sending anything less than the best very sensible. You send very good troops, and give them the best hitting power and protection you can give them. Otherwise, you're throwing money away... and any government that does that deserves to fall apart....

 

[kaladorn]

I suppose *all* marines might not wear BD... the guys in the cav, arty, marine air wing, or those doing special duties like embassy guard, attache/aide, schools, etc. probably would not.

However, it makes perfect sense for all marines shipboard to have BD. GURPS GF was a lot more coherent in terms of basic marine training than CT/MT generation ever was. Yes, you'd get BD (and if you read the description of the types of drills you learned on, you'd appreciate why all would have it) if you were a line marine. In CT/MT, you don't get ZeroGEnv, HighGEnv, ZeroGCbt, etc. very easily either, and these are also key Marine skills. Lord knows generating a marine who has spent 4 terms in and knows laser rifle-0, vacc-suit-0 and cutlass-1 isn't unheard of, even if it is unsensible.

Marines shipboard will use BD because it is a hardshell suit that can operate in vacuum under hostile combat conditions (varying accelerations, possible boarding actions, damage control actions which require extra strength and enhanced armour/radiation shielding and indepent comms, etc).

Marines landside - most of the time this would be as a result of power projection from a ship, dropping in with Astrins and other assets and wanting to deploy maximum force in minimum time.

Remember, Marines are not, except when things aren't being organized right, a garrison unit. They hit things. They are raiders. They strike and withdraw or they take, hold, and are relieved by inbound army units who ARE designed for long term control-of-land operations and OOTW.

Sure, you might find Marines that are waiting for the Army to relieve them actually wearing lighter CES-style body armour and carrying lighter weaponry like laser rifles in a 'pacified zone', but that's at best a temporary thing until the Army arrives.

Marines are too expensive, in terms of training, to have loitering around wasting their skillset away doing garrison duty on a planet. They'll get out of practice for spaceborne and shipboard actions and orbital assaults. That's a bad use of good strikers.

And it costs too much to send soldiers among the stars (economics of CT starships...) to make sending anything less than the best very sensible. You send very good troops, and give them the best hitting power and protection you can give them. Otherwise, you're throwing money away... and any government that does that deserves to fall apart....

 

[The Oz]

Those are the kinds of arguments I use to justify my kind of Imperial Marines, kaladorn. And if I've had to change things around a bit in character generation, so what? It's MTU and I can do (within reason) quite a bit of what I want and still stay pretty close to canon.

Marines generated by my character generation could be generated by the regular system (they'd just have to fairly lucky).

 

[kaladorn]

I've toyed a bit with 'basic training' and some of the advanced training options too.

Anyway, the nice thing about Traveller is there is a fair degree of option available within a stone's throw of canon.... so one can diverge without really diverging, if you take my meaning.

 

[kafka47]

IMTU, I have always concurred with Canon that Marines represent the elite force of the 3i. As any poor sod could serve in the Army (Planetary or Imperial) but to serve in the Marines was a chance to hook up with the Navy and see the Stars.

Having said that, however, the Marine Corp has lesser social status than the Navy therefore it is likely that many of the middle class would opt for a Marine stint and hope that they are far enough away from all the major conflict until the Rebellion rolled into town. So that most of the home guard who would be called up, would do so with little training but lots of enthuasism (a la Starship Troopers). Therefore, it would largely depend what type of conflict that the Marines would be sent into.

Most Small Wars would be Peacekeeping or Peacemaking operations often needing only a small detachment to serve and bully around the local Army boys until Imperial institutions are up and running again.

The person whose opinions I would like hear on this topic would be MJD, as he was proposing to write a Third Imperium sourcebook.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by The Oz:
I don't see Marines operating in regiments or larger formations unless there's a first-class war going on.

... right where one might expect to see regimental combat formations....

I also disagree with the canon tables of organization for Imperial Marines. It has been a constant in modern warfare (since the 1800's) that the number of men in the smallest tactical units has gone down with time. Squads have gone from 14 men to 10 to 8 to 6. I think Imperial Marines would operate in squads of 3 or 4 at most (I use 3 in my TOEs), platoons of 12 to 15, and companies of 40 to 50. An individual TRAVELLER Marine is more like a cross between a modern-day main battle tank and an attack helicopter in terms of his firepower, mobility and sensor range.

That has some argument for it, but against that stands the fact that small units take casualties very poorly. It still takes 1-2 guys to evac a wounded guy. If you have 30 guys in a platoon (vis 16 or so), then 2 guys is 1/15th of your combat power. If you have 16, it is 1/8th. Also, even with advanced monitoring and surveillance technology (which, like the BD, can encounter situations where it will fail or not operate to full capacity), there are still scenarios where your platoon needs to be in 3 or 4 places at once, and with significant numbers of people. Having BD only goes so far to address or mitigate those situations.

This is one of the types of problems they are finding in many places where they are trying Rumsfeldian smaller lighter more agile forces.... that you still need boots on the ground and eyes in *sufficient numbers* to make certain types of ops work.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by The Oz:
To offset the increased cost per Marine, my Imperial Marine units are smaller, as I said. In canon, Imperial Marine line infantry companies have almost 250 men and 25 grav APCs; mine, as I said above, have only 40 to 50 men and only four vehicles.

So, in the classic TO&E, if engaged in an orbital assault, and someone gets a small meson battery or other PD system active, the classical company losses 4% of its armour and infantry when a grav vehicle is burnt out of the sky.... in yours, it loses 25%. Yes, it might be harder to do - is it 6x harder?

I'm not saying it isn't workable, just that there will be times (as with all strategic or logistical decisions) where the decision will come back and bite you in the butt.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by The Oz:
The really first-line, top-notch Marine units will be facing the really serious enemies like the Zhodani and the Solomani, who have the highest TL and present the greatest risk of war. In areas facing other enemies (Aslani, Vargr, K'kree)

One could equally argue that the Vargr front is probably the most likely to be active (the Aslan not usually being a straight up fight, more of a space vagrant/squatter issue) so perhaps demands some crack troops. One could also say, based on some of the rumblings about the future of Trav history, maybe the K'kree merit strong defenses...

Seriously, what you say makes sense, but I suspect it might break down more by sector and subsector fleets and the MarDivs assigned thereto than by entire empire sized fronts.

And you'd hafta figure the powers that be would keep some darn good elites around Core (and by good in this case I mean well equipped and politically reliable, if not as experienced as frontier soldiers) to prevent... unsanctioned changes of government, etc.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Hello.
Just a quick question - How many armoured divisions does the United states have facing Canada or Mexico for that matter.

10th Mountain in the NY region is poised for quick 'assistance' activities re Canada (also has Alpine type training). This assistance could take ... many forms.

They can't have enough defence out west though... we seem to be taking over Hollywood. They generally use trade practices as weapons instead...

Seriously, whatever they've got, its more than we've got looking the other way!

Also how many regular marine units have outdated equipment and its not being replaced.

I have friends in the US Army. The USMC has been fighting a long term battle against exctinction as the Army has constantly indicated their light forces can do the same job (and better, of course). I'm not going to open that debate, but the Marines do seem to have to fight a constant war at the Pentagon and other spots to keep getting money and kit.

The Imperial marines are the ELITE forces of the Imperium, Yes the units on the quiet sectors may not have Tl15 armour but they should have Tl14 armour and Tl 15 guns and all units would be trained in Battledress.

This depends a little on YTU. If the highest tech in the sector is 13, and that isn't an industrial planet, and the highest industrial planet is TL 11, you might find that hard to sustain logistically. Maintaining fleets and marine presences beyond the local TL will be logistically penurious, and hence not done without good reason - it can be done, and it will be where required, but not where it is not.

And just think if you'd wanna be hooked up to a catheter tube or whatever all day? I'm quite sure that Marines in less hot sectors probably appear in lesser kit (I saw pics of some in TD when they did Terra's Marines or somewhere in CES and helmet with laser rifle). Why put extra hours on the exoskeleton when it isn't needed all the time?

With 8000 systems in the Imperium i doubt if the imperium has enough marines for all the jobs it requires them to do

That's probably true, except...

(does the U.S armed forces have enough troops for what it wants to do (NO) otherwise it wouldn't be calling up reservists).

But the US has ambitious agenda relative to the Traveller Imperium - it tends to worry only about trade and defense and pretty much all else goes unremarked (not entirely... but in general). Thus they don't need quite as many forces. Plus, lots of Nobles would have small units (Duke or Regina's House Cavalry, etc) that could handle planetary situations and could be optioned in war-time. So the main issue for Marines is rapid reaction capability and raiding/raider suppression ops and merchantile protection.

They probably don't have enough Marines, but they probably aren't killing themselves to recruit new ones and the grunts still probably have an abysmal payscale. (2000 years roll by, and some things stay the same...)

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Kafka47:
IMTU, I have always concurred with Canon that Marines represent the elite force of the 3i. As any poor sod could serve in the Army (Planetary or Imperial) but to serve in the Marines was a chance to hook up with the Navy and see the Stars.

Some army units see off-planet action during wartime or probably to a lesser extent in peacetime, especially in long-term stabilization ops that Marines would be wasted on. Marines should be (IMO) strikers.

Now, the interesting thing about the Corps:
Join the Corps, see the Galaxy, meet lots of new and interesting life forms, and shoot a goodly percentage!

Having said that, however, the Marine Corp has lesser social status than the Navy

In the eyes of the Navy...

Something tells me your average jarhead doesn't see it that way (or would snort at the idea of social precedence mattering for much). They know who they bail out when ships get boarded or ships need boarded and how unhappy your average E3 in the Navy would be leading and assault shuttle full of hardcases down into a hot PLZ.

therefore it is likely that many of the middle class would opt for a Marine stint and hope that they are far enough away from all the major conflict

Even during peacetime, Marines would be busy in piracy suppression, rapid response to crises, etc. But it would be safer than general war and in the peace periods of the Empire, probably a lot of Marines could serve a lot of time as Ships Troops or the like without much risk. Not like joining the freakin' death-wish IISS.

Most Small Wars would be Peacekeeping or Peacemaking operations often needing only a small detachment to serve and bully around the local Army boys until Imperial institutions are up and running again.

And until an army stabilization unit arrives for long term, if that's required.

Possibly also to take out pirate bases or gov'ts suddenly turned anti-Imperial and a threat to commerce and good order (the striker role) or to deal with foreign insurgents/raiders with spacemobile capabilities (requires navy/marines possibly in coordination with COACC/Army).

The person whose opinions I would like hear on this topic would be MJD, as he was proposing to write a Third Imperium sourcebook.

That would be interesting yes.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
That has some argument for it, but against that stands the fact that small units take casualties very poorly. It still takes 1-2 guys to evac a wounded guy. If you have 30 guys in a platoon (vis 16 or so), then 2 guys is 1/15th of your combat power. If you have 16, it is 1/8th. Also, even with advanced monitoring and surveillance technology (which, like the BD, can encounter situations where it will fail or not operate to full capacity), there are still scenarios where your platoon needs to be in 3 or 4 places at once, and with significant numbers of people. Having BD only goes so far to address or mitigate those situations.

Yes, a loss of a single trooper out of my 50-man company hurts more than the same loss out of a standard 250 man company. That's unavoidable.

However....

Each of the 50 men in my company is far more mobile and lethal and has far better protection and sensors than the standard Imperial Marine, even in battledress. As a result, my Marines will kill the enemy more quickly (which is the best way to reduce my own losses) and will be killed far slower than standard Marines.

IMTU it's considered a good trade-off. YMMV.

So, in the classic TO&E, if engaged in an orbital assault, and someone gets a small meson battery or other PD system active, the classical company losses 4% of its armour and infantry when a grav vehicle is burnt out of the sky.... in yours, it loses 25%. Yes, it might be harder to do - is it 6x harder?

I'm not saying it isn't workable, just that there will be times (as with all strategic or logistical decisions) where the decision will come back and bite you in the butt.

Yes, again; smaller size loses more to one hit.

However....

My Marines make hot landings in high-survivability assault capsules, as individuals. The grav APCs are not for combat (they provide nuclear damper coverage, some point defense fire, and drone missile/ortillery Fire Direction Centers) and have only their crews aboard when they drop. So losing one APC hurts, but is not crippling. Even losing two would not cost the company its nuclear damper field.

One could equally argue that the Vargr front is probably the most likely to be active (the Aslan not usually being a straight up fight, more of a space vagrant/squatter issue) so perhaps demands some crack troops. One could also say, based on some of the rumblings about the future of Trav history, maybe the K'kree merit strong defenses...

Seriously, what you say makes sense, but I suspect it might break down more by sector and subsector fleets and the MarDivs assigned thereto than by entire empire sized fronts.

And you'd hafta figure the powers that be would keep some darn good elites around Core (and by good in this case I mean well equipped and politically reliable, if not as experienced as frontier soldiers) to prevent... unsanctioned changes of government, etc.

Actually, I'd think the Marines facing the Aslani would be held to a higher standard, both in equipment and training. The Aslani are warriors, and their tech level is not that low. When the Aslani come, they're coming to stay, and you either have to keep them out or kick them off once they're down. They may not come as often as the Vargr, but when they come you need your best.

The Vargr are lower-tech than the Aslani, and (in the OTU) are usually only coming to raid and then go home. While as brave as any other race, the Vargr lack cohesion and combined with their lower technology can be handled by lesser-equipped forces. The Vargr come in smaller forces with less in-space support; I just don't see them as a tougher combatant. The trouble with Vargr is that there are a lot of raiding bands (each operating seperately) and it's hard to catch them before they strike and it's hard to find them after they strike.

The K'Kree are supposed to be quite a handful in ground combat, I believe, but they are a long way away from actual Imperial territory in the OTU, so that's why I consider them a lower threat.

As far as Marines in the Core I think we agree: I said that the Marines in the inner Imperium would have access to the best goodies (if only because they're closer to the centers of manufacture) but might not have the best training and experience. I'd not thought about political reliability, but you are right that it could well be a factor.

 

[kaladorn]

I had understood that some part of the greater threat in the future of the OTU was something originating out of the remnants of the 2000 Worlds.

Oh, and I don't totally knock the effectiveness of a given man as a justification for small units. Note however that a Marine getting dysintery (sp?) or needing to sleep or breaking an arm in a drop means more when he is one of fifty, as opposed to one of two-fifty. Yes, you can get a higher force multiplier, but when the multiplicand goes to zero, N times zero is still zero. So, I'm not saying it isn't viable, just that in an interesting universe, this would come back to roost every so often, just to keep folks honest.

That'd be cool as a scenario - where a small high tech force expecting to benefit from vast force multipliers hits a situation where they don't work or part of the force is taken down (suicide bomber takes out a 10 man squad dining area, extra losses due to some sort of drop accidents etc) and they then have to manage a tough mission on account of it.

I guess my real choice, since it is all fictional, is to have 250 men equiped like your 50

 

[The Oz]

It's YTU, you can do what you like. That's one thing that makes TRAVELLER as much fun as it is.

You like having Marine companies that are more than twice the manpower of a modern infantry company because they will be more able to benefit from having numbers, while I like following the historical trend in tactical unit sizing and then trying to equip/train the Marines so they'll still be effective.

I hope I don't seem obsessive to keep coming back to that concept, but I think it's a true trend for warfare. It is, I believe, what allows the existence of the seeming paradox that weapon lethality has increased with technology, yet casualty rates (in men hit per unit time in combat) has actually gone down. Dupuy and Dupuy make the argument (which I agree with) that the increased dispersion of men on the battlefield is responsible for this.

I see the standard TRAVELLER 250-man company as a big target packing a whole lot of very valuable men and equipment into too small an area. If the enemy gets one heavy nuke or one big meson gun burst through its defenses, 250 men are lost, while my Marines would only lose 50, if that many.

And since my standard trooper armor (with weapons) costs about MCr1.5, and the leader/scout/missileer armor costs about MCr2.5, equipping 250 men that way and then packing them tightly so they can all be killed at once would be silly.

 

[Uncle Bob]

First of all, it appears that a canon platoon can cover nearly the area of one of The Oz' companies, so I see no reason to crowd 250 men in that space. The Oz will have to deploy a battalion to secure what would be a company objective for canon Marines, given equivalent tech.

That said, IMTU I use small TOEs because they largely opperate in complex terrain where large units cannot coordinate well (boarding starships and upports, securing downports).


As to social status, I don’t recall anything canon in CT. Traditionally Army comissions are attractive to nobles, especially those units they raise themselves. Navies (at least since the time of Samuel Pepys) have been a middle-class service as it gave preference to technocrats. Except for the British royal family. I don’t know about European marines, but in the 19th Century American marine officers were promoted from the ranks, and were snubbed by a "high society" that doted on the college educated Army and Navy officers.

 

[kaladorn]

Two points for Bob:

1. Do you have a canon reference I can look up for your comment on coverage?

2. Why do you suspect a TL-15 force cannot coordinate large forces even in complex terrain? That's a questionable assumption to my mind.

As to the Soc thing, recall that Soc is a modifier to get into nav acad, to army acad, and probably into the navy period, but not the run of the mill army.

The British Navy had a lot of powerfully connected men in it. And quite a few titled sorts, and if you have connections, it was easier to get on the Captain's List and get assigned to a boat, rather than sitting around beached. Marines, OTOH, were generally not of any kind of royal blood or aristocratic blood, even their officers.

So, I'd say the order, wrt snobbery/class influence is:
Navy
Army
Marines

As to the comments of Oz: I agreed your arguments had merit. However, if you're in OOTW, that dispersion can be your worst enemy. In those circumstances, you can rarely leverage your firepower advantage, can't always leverage your mobility advantage, and boots on the ground and extra sets of eyes and brains count for quite a bit. And there isn't the same risk of mass destruction (well, there may not be). So there are still scenarios where larger forces are an asset, and it seems to me the smaller force will, from time to time, find itself hung out to dry. We've seen this a few times in modern history, despite the trend to smaller squad sizes.