Is Solomani evil?
- Thread starter Cymew
- Start date
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Let me put some of these points to one of my characters, Commodore David Carter of the Solomani Confederation Navy (who also holds the rank of Colonel in SolSec)...
Me: Some people are saying that the Solomani are...well, not very nice.
DC: Not nice? Who said that? Give me their names and addresses and I'll have SolSec visit them at three in the morning and change their minds. With
thumbscrews, if necessary. [pause] That was a joke, by the way.
Me: Of course. Everybody knows SolSec raids happen at four-thirty.
DC: Exactly. Seriously, though, you can't make that kind of generalisation about an entire race.
Me: I think they were meaning the Confederation government and its policies. They say it's a despotism.
DC: These people are from the Imperium, I suppose?
Me: Some are, yes.
DC: The same Imperium that's run by an unelected, unaccountable aristocracy?
Me: Erm...
DC: The Imperium that thinks Right of Assassination is a good - in fact, the only - way to remove an unfit ruler?
Me: ...er...
DC: And they're accusing our democratically-elected leaders of being despots?
Me: ...ah, yes.
DC: Really. Hmm. Next question?
Me: Well, what about your hatred of aliens?
DC: I don't hate aliens. I've met more than you might expect, and got along fine with most of them.
Me: But your government...
DC: ...is biased in favour of humans, yes, I'll give you that. Some of these policies may be a little...harsh.
Me: So you don't agree with them?
DC: I didn't say that. There are some government policies I agree with, some I don't, and many I have no feelings for either way. I'm sure you're the same.
Me: That's not answering the question.
DC: I know. My politics are a private matter between me and my ballot paper. But getting back to your point, every government is biased in favour of their own people. How many non-Human rulers has the Imperium had? How many non-Zhodani have ruled the Consulate? Same for the Hivers, Aslan, and all the rest. Hey, if you want to see real rabid xenophobia, go talk to the K'kree - they'd quite happily exterminate every other creature in the galaxy, and yet we're the ones that get labelled as racists.
Me: Well, you do believe you're the master race.
DC: The Solomani Cause actually says, "It is mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars, with the men of Sol preeminent amongst them."
Me: Do you believe that?
DC: For most of the last 10,000 years mankind *has* ruled the stars. Today, the largest empire is human, and humans control nearly half of known space.
Me: Solomani are hardly preeminent, though.
DC: There are people of Solomani descent all over the Imperium, and beyond, many in positions of power. Our language and customs are used everywhere. And we've won every war we've fought.
Me: Not the Rim War.
DC: Oh, we did. Consider the objectives. The Imperium wanted to destroy the Confederation, which it didn't recognise, and recapture the whole of the old Solomani Sphere. We just wanted to survive, and keep as much territory as possible. Based on those goals, we won. The Imperium only got a quarter of the worlds they wanted, and they were forced to recognise the Confederation.
Me: They captured Terra, though.
DC: I didn't say it was an outstanding victory. 75:25 in our favour.
Me: I never thought of it like that.
DC: Most people don't. They just swallow Imperial propaganda and don't think for themselves.
Me: Some people are saying that the Solomani are...well, not very nice.
DC: Not nice? Who said that? Give me their names and addresses and I'll have SolSec visit them at three in the morning and change their minds. With
thumbscrews, if necessary. [pause] That was a joke, by the way.
Me: Of course. Everybody knows SolSec raids happen at four-thirty.
DC: Exactly. Seriously, though, you can't make that kind of generalisation about an entire race.
Me: I think they were meaning the Confederation government and its policies. They say it's a despotism.
DC: These people are from the Imperium, I suppose?
Me: Some are, yes.
DC: The same Imperium that's run by an unelected, unaccountable aristocracy?
Me: Erm...
DC: The Imperium that thinks Right of Assassination is a good - in fact, the only - way to remove an unfit ruler?
Me: ...er...
DC: And they're accusing our democratically-elected leaders of being despots?
Me: ...ah, yes.
DC: Really. Hmm. Next question?
Me: Well, what about your hatred of aliens?
DC: I don't hate aliens. I've met more than you might expect, and got along fine with most of them.
Me: But your government...
DC: ...is biased in favour of humans, yes, I'll give you that. Some of these policies may be a little...harsh.
Me: So you don't agree with them?
DC: I didn't say that. There are some government policies I agree with, some I don't, and many I have no feelings for either way. I'm sure you're the same.
Me: That's not answering the question.
DC: I know. My politics are a private matter between me and my ballot paper. But getting back to your point, every government is biased in favour of their own people. How many non-Human rulers has the Imperium had? How many non-Zhodani have ruled the Consulate? Same for the Hivers, Aslan, and all the rest. Hey, if you want to see real rabid xenophobia, go talk to the K'kree - they'd quite happily exterminate every other creature in the galaxy, and yet we're the ones that get labelled as racists.
Me: Well, you do believe you're the master race.
DC: The Solomani Cause actually says, "It is mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars, with the men of Sol preeminent amongst them."
Me: Do you believe that?
DC: For most of the last 10,000 years mankind *has* ruled the stars. Today, the largest empire is human, and humans control nearly half of known space.
Me: Solomani are hardly preeminent, though.
DC: There are people of Solomani descent all over the Imperium, and beyond, many in positions of power. Our language and customs are used everywhere. And we've won every war we've fought.
Me: Not the Rim War.
DC: Oh, we did. Consider the objectives. The Imperium wanted to destroy the Confederation, which it didn't recognise, and recapture the whole of the old Solomani Sphere. We just wanted to survive, and keep as much territory as possible. Based on those goals, we won. The Imperium only got a quarter of the worlds they wanted, and they were forced to recognise the Confederation.
Me: They captured Terra, though.
DC: I didn't say it was an outstanding victory. 75:25 in our favour.
Me: I never thought of it like that.
DC: Most people don't. They just swallow Imperial propaganda and don't think for themselves.
I think you can label the GT line as being "revisionist" with respect to the Solomani. This is mostly due to my prejudices - I don't find the monolithic Stalinist state all that likely.
Rim of Fire spent a little time presenting them in a more nuanced fashion. With any luck, there will be a new sector book next year which will focus entirely on the Solomani Confederation - that will have lots of room to play up the real diversity that (we think) exists there.
And yes, if the GT "metaplot" continues long enough, the Solomani are going to be in for some interesting times. Without the Rebellion to hand them a victorious Second Rim War, they've got nothing to distract them from internal tensions . . .
Rim of Fire spent a little time presenting them in a more nuanced fashion. With any luck, there will be a new sector book next year which will focus entirely on the Solomani Confederation - that will have lots of room to play up the real diversity that (we think) exists there.
And yes, if the GT "metaplot" continues long enough, the Solomani are going to be in for some interesting times. Without the Rebellion to hand them a victorious Second Rim War, they've got nothing to distract them from internal tensions . . .
Jon,
Is there to be another book on Solomani? I thought Rim of Fire was just that?
That thing you mention about the metaplot sounds interesting. I have no GURPS Traveller books, since I think GURPS suck as a Traveller rules set (cubic feet, need I say more?).
Maybe I should look at some of them anyway. Are there much "chrunchy stuff" in Rim of Fire?
Is there to be another book on Solomani? I thought Rim of Fire was just that?
That thing you mention about the metaplot sounds interesting. I have no GURPS Traveller books, since I think GURPS suck as a Traveller rules set (cubic feet, need I say more?).
Maybe I should look at some of them anyway. Are there much "chrunchy stuff" in Rim of Fire?
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Thanks.
I agree about the rules (well, they're okay, but they're not Traveller), but the books are actually very good. Definitely worth getting.
Rim of Fire covered the Solomani Rim sector, most of which is in Imperial hands. So although the Solomani are certainly presented, they're not the main focus. The book I'm talking about will be all Solomani, and will go into a lot more detail about them.
Not really. The worlds of the Solomani Rim sector are described using the GURPS Space system, which is a bit different from the Classic UWP but not hard to follow. There are a few starships written up in GURPS Vehicles terms, taking up about two pages. There are a couple of character templates, for Vegans and whatnot. The rest is all rules-free background.
This is actually the direction I hope to take the line in general, once Starships is published. If a book is relatively free of GURPS rules, then Traveller fans can use it even if they don't like GURPS as a system.
Antares Administration
SOC-12
You know, Andrew, I've been trying to relate Solomani political philosophy to players for years, and you've managed to encapsulate it in mere minutes. Stars for you!
Paul Nemeth
AA
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Careful, my ego's in danger of reaching critical mass...
If it makes you feel better, it took me over an hour! (And some of the ideas had been bouncing around my head for ages)
saulweaver
SOC-8
I feel so judged.
saulweaver
SOC-8
Part of the political structure for the Solomani, at least as presented in the AM, was derived from a book by Viktor Suvorov called "Inside the Soviet Army." The book described a state controlled by three competing factions: the military, the party and the KGB. Sounds a little familiar, eh? But the sphere is kind of a mishmash of concepts, as the "troika" concept does not really sync with the General Assembly and the concept of a decentralized confederation.
So you essentially have tyranny without power, which is impossible.
The Solomani concept has always seemed somewhat incoherent and unrealistic to me. There are a bunch of ideas that never really gelled that well together, and all of the effort to make them bad and different (but not too bad or too different) ends up making them uninteresting.
IMTU (long inactive) I emphasized the decentralized nature of the confederation, minimizing the whole SolSec/party thing. The driving force behind the Solomani movement was the external threat, Aslan (competition on the frontier), Hiver (its not paranoia if they are really out to get you) and Imperial, that is the real motivator. Lord knows that the fear of the external enemy can get good people to do some pretty crazy things. This xenophobia or racial pride and desperation is really what holds the rickety confederation together, rather than the bogeymen from SolSec.
With this approach a "real" frontier is more likely. A tyrannical govt is unlikely to favor the idea of a bunch of colonists beyone SolSec's control. But a decentralized society united only by the need to propogate the species will have be active colonizing and exploring, whether condoned by the government or not. With a real frontier the Solomani Confederation becomes an attractive place to adventure, espcially for those used to being trapped in the 3I.
I can see the Solomani terrified by the fact that their great and ancient civilization, which once reigned supreme in Known Space, is now entirely content to reside in the coffin that is the Third Imperium. There are billions of stars in this galaxy alone, and they will all be settled by those foreign to our civilization. Shakespeare, Beethoven, Locke, Reagan (
) and Tolstoy will be unknown to them. Only the Solomani have the open frontier and the will to fill it. These desperate heroes, etc., etc.
GDW also copied the order of battle out of the Suvorov book for their excellent Third World War series of games.
So you essentially have tyranny without power, which is impossible.
The Solomani concept has always seemed somewhat incoherent and unrealistic to me. There are a bunch of ideas that never really gelled that well together, and all of the effort to make them bad and different (but not too bad or too different) ends up making them uninteresting.
IMTU (long inactive) I emphasized the decentralized nature of the confederation, minimizing the whole SolSec/party thing. The driving force behind the Solomani movement was the external threat, Aslan (competition on the frontier), Hiver (its not paranoia if they are really out to get you) and Imperial, that is the real motivator. Lord knows that the fear of the external enemy can get good people to do some pretty crazy things. This xenophobia or racial pride and desperation is really what holds the rickety confederation together, rather than the bogeymen from SolSec.
With this approach a "real" frontier is more likely. A tyrannical govt is unlikely to favor the idea of a bunch of colonists beyone SolSec's control. But a decentralized society united only by the need to propogate the species will have be active colonizing and exploring, whether condoned by the government or not. With a real frontier the Solomani Confederation becomes an attractive place to adventure, espcially for those used to being trapped in the 3I.
I can see the Solomani terrified by the fact that their great and ancient civilization, which once reigned supreme in Known Space, is now entirely content to reside in the coffin that is the Third Imperium. There are billions of stars in this galaxy alone, and they will all be settled by those foreign to our civilization. Shakespeare, Beethoven, Locke, Reagan (
) and Tolstoy will be unknown to them. Only the Solomani have the open frontier and the will to fill it. These desperate heroes, etc., etc.GDW also copied the order of battle out of the Suvorov book for their excellent Third World War series of games.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
I agree that there are contradictions, but it's not too difficult to make it all fit together.
IMTU, SolSec and the Party have their roots in the Long Night. In the chaos of the collapse of civilisation it was easy for a totalitarian government to come to power, promising safety, stability, and protection from the aliens who (obviously) caused all these problems. If people had to give up a few freedoms for the sake of "homeland security", well, it's gotta be better than the alternative, right?
They lost a lot of power after joining the 3I, and didn't really start to regain it until the SAR was formed. Ironically, the Rim War was the best thing that could've happened to them - it gave them a genuine threat to unite the people against, and a justification for everything they'd done.
How can they oppress a huge, interstellar population of generally hi-tech, well-educated people? Answer: very subtly. They are masters of propaganda, PR, and spin-doctoring. They've convinced the people that whatever they do is for their own good. They are also careful about *who* they oppress. As long as people behave themselves and pay their taxes, they don't care. Anybody they consider an enemy of the state, however, is in deep, deep shit.
saulweaver
SOC-8
The contradiction I see is not really between a high-tech, educated society and tyranny. In fact, in some ways the more sophisticated a society is the susceptible it is to tyranny. Isn’t sophisticated just a byword for dependent? It is much easier to influence and corrupt a young urban professional, who has to worry about a mortgage, his 401(k) and private school tuition, than some pastoral nomad who’s only possession are some goats and a rifle. China and the Russia both had well educated elites, and it was those elites who were most susceptible to the enticements of the tyrants. And Germany is an excellent example of a technologically advanced and even democratic country that went bad. The German education system was reputed to be the best in the world. Germany was the most advanced country on the continent in just about every respect.
The contradiction I see is the simultaneous existence of a tyrannical state a decentralized authority. If you think about it, Mao, Stalin and Hitler were not big proponents of federalism. Neither were Augustus, Pol Pot or Louis XIV. Tyranny will not work without centralized power. If the locals can run off the Gestapo, the state will cease to function. How can a state be oppressive if it can’t enforce its will in the provinces? Rather than oppressive it will just be ineffective. That is why I chose IMTU to emphasize the decentralized nature of the confederation over the tyranny angle. There have been plenty of ineffective wannabe tyrants ruling over decentralized states, but there has never been a real tyranny without centralized power.
The contradiction I see is the simultaneous existence of a tyrannical state a decentralized authority. If you think about it, Mao, Stalin and Hitler were not big proponents of federalism. Neither were Augustus, Pol Pot or Louis XIV. Tyranny will not work without centralized power. If the locals can run off the Gestapo, the state will cease to function. How can a state be oppressive if it can’t enforce its will in the provinces? Rather than oppressive it will just be ineffective. That is why I chose IMTU to emphasize the decentralized nature of the confederation over the tyranny angle. There have been plenty of ineffective wannabe tyrants ruling over decentralized states, but there has never been a real tyranny without centralized power.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
They also had vast populations of poor, poorly-educated people.
So you have a Confederation *with* a strong central authority. The individual states have a small amount of autonomy, but SolSec keeps a close eye on them and the Navy stays in the hands of the central government and comes down like the wrath of god on any state that steps out of line.
Don't forget, the USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, not a single state. It was only the strong central authority holding it together, and once that went it fragmented into separate (sometimes hostile) states.
saulweaver
SOC-8
But this contradicts other information about Confederation. The pre-AM stuff indicates that the central authority is weak. For example, the trade war between Kukulcan and the coalition of Thetis and Laputa. "[T]he Thetis-Laputa coalition has thus far been able to muster enough power to prevent effective intervention by the Confederation government." This coalition of only two planets seems to have no fear of the federation navy.
Canon emphasiss the "greater degree of local autonomy" in the Confederation. "Coalitions of worlds exist outside the normal government channels which sometimes equal them in importance within a given region." This hardly sounds like a strong central authority.
I think the canon emphasizes the independence of the Solomani (versus Viliani).
Like I said, it does not all fit together well. My solution was to try and make sense out of it by demphasizing the Totolitarianish aspect, which I think was derived from the above book about the Soviet Army. It was grafted onto the existing canon in the AM, but they planted this branch on the wrong type of tree. A true confederation, which is what they described, can not also be centralized.
But the USSR was a sham, which does not appear to be the case with the confederation. The districts, unlike the soviet republics, do really have a great deal, in some cases almost total, autonomy.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Or perhaps the Confed doesn't consider the problem to be important enough.
But by doing that you totally change the character of the Confederation.
saulweaver
SOC-8
Andrew, we seem to be going in circles here, which of course is quite rare on the internet.
Note that I am not saying that I ignore all of the SolSec/Party BS. It can make for interesting play, but I view the Solomani Confederation more as a failed police state than an actual police state. With the stong local factions, power is too decentralized for the Party/SolSec to be effective.
So IMTU the Solomani Movement is not evil, but only because no one is giving it the opportunity.
I more see it that there are two canons on the Solomani Confederation. One, from the LD and SR LBB supplements, casts the confederation as a decentralized state. Then someone read the a book about the Soviet Union, thought that was cool, and concocted a centralized police state in the AM. The two concepts do not jive. It is not me that is totally changing the nature of the Confederation; the Alien Module did that, leaving us with contradictory descriptions of the Solomani government.
Note that I am not saying that I ignore all of the SolSec/Party BS. It can make for interesting play, but I view the Solomani Confederation more as a failed police state than an actual police state. With the stong local factions, power is too decentralized for the Party/SolSec to be effective.
So IMTU the Solomani Movement is not evil, but only because no one is giving it the opportunity.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Two threads are running in my mind here.
1) I wasn't aware of (what was that lovely word I saw on a another topic?) Deuteral-Canonical? nature of the Solomani.
Until I purchased The Solomani AM I was pretty much an exclusive Spinward Marches/Homebrew player. Nothing I read earlier really contridicted that material presented there so... To me the Solomani have always been tarred with AM brush. To me they've been (as one friend put it) 'Nazi's in space' -- though that IS a simplification.
If you recall my earlier post I still believe the Solomani suffer mostly from an OOC attempt to make them an 'other' to the Imperium's " '70's NATO nations (mostly US)."
And I still think AM revision or not, that the whole Solimani Hypothesis as Social theory taints all they do. As much as when racists or others with a political or social agenda try to invoke Darwin out of context.
2) this is more a political - historical thought and thus perhaps OT. If you think so I'd be happy to move any subsequent dialogue to random static but I have to disagree with the thesis that you 'cannot Oppress a Peasant' and that Intellectual Elites are the suckers of the Despot'.
It may be hard to make a person who only has a tiny bit of land some farm animals and a rifle to feel oppressed when he knows nothing else. It maybe be hard to take much away from him/her...but it's not impossible to oppress him or her.
Just ask the Kulaks. (if you can find any after Stalin was done with them)
I also don't agree with the 'Elites as suckers'thesis. For example, Germany. Yes Germany did have many well educated people but according to Albert Spear ('Inside The Third Reich') their education was technical, and decidely lacking in 'liberal arts' and thus in his opinion lacking in the tools to Dissamble persuasive charismatic rhetoric, Lacking in philophical knowledge to see alternatives to the 'simple' and 'final' solutions, and lacking in the historical insight to see where their 'great leader' was taking them.
It is problem I sometimes worry about in the present day. I could tell some wannabe engineer with a "friends don't let friends take Arts" T-shirt, that the Canadian Reform Alliance Party (or whatever they call themselves next time they try to 'unite the right') cribbed their policy planks from Hitler's Mein Kampf, and he wouldn't have a clue how to intelligently refute me.
and if you think people who just have land and animals are immune to oppressive ideals, Why is the Aryan Nations so strongly represented in the Praire provinces of Canada? Why do the Followers of Bin Ladin and his ilk charge so willing to their deaths if they can just take a few 'infidel' along?
No I have to disagree. an intellectual 'elite' does NOT make you more prone to despotism. An Intellectual Monopoly.. Might.
IMO and feel free to tell me to move it to random static.
1) I wasn't aware of (what was that lovely word I saw on a another topic?) Deuteral-Canonical? nature of the Solomani.
Until I purchased The Solomani AM I was pretty much an exclusive Spinward Marches/Homebrew player. Nothing I read earlier really contridicted that material presented there so... To me the Solomani have always been tarred with AM brush. To me they've been (as one friend put it) 'Nazi's in space' -- though that IS a simplification.
If you recall my earlier post I still believe the Solomani suffer mostly from an OOC attempt to make them an 'other' to the Imperium's " '70's NATO nations (mostly US)."
And I still think AM revision or not, that the whole Solimani Hypothesis as Social theory taints all they do. As much as when racists or others with a political or social agenda try to invoke Darwin out of context.
2) this is more a political - historical thought and thus perhaps OT. If you think so I'd be happy to move any subsequent dialogue to random static but I have to disagree with the thesis that you 'cannot Oppress a Peasant' and that Intellectual Elites are the suckers of the Despot'.
It may be hard to make a person who only has a tiny bit of land some farm animals and a rifle to feel oppressed when he knows nothing else. It maybe be hard to take much away from him/her...but it's not impossible to oppress him or her.
Just ask the Kulaks. (if you can find any after Stalin was done with them)
I also don't agree with the 'Elites as suckers'thesis. For example, Germany. Yes Germany did have many well educated people but according to Albert Spear ('Inside The Third Reich') their education was technical, and decidely lacking in 'liberal arts' and thus in his opinion lacking in the tools to Dissamble persuasive charismatic rhetoric, Lacking in philophical knowledge to see alternatives to the 'simple' and 'final' solutions, and lacking in the historical insight to see where their 'great leader' was taking them.
It is problem I sometimes worry about in the present day. I could tell some wannabe engineer with a "friends don't let friends take Arts" T-shirt, that the Canadian Reform Alliance Party (or whatever they call themselves next time they try to 'unite the right') cribbed their policy planks from Hitler's Mein Kampf, and he wouldn't have a clue how to intelligently refute me.
and if you think people who just have land and animals are immune to oppressive ideals, Why is the Aryan Nations so strongly represented in the Praire provinces of Canada? Why do the Followers of Bin Ladin and his ilk charge so willing to their deaths if they can just take a few 'infidel' along?
No I have to disagree. an intellectual 'elite' does NOT make you more prone to despotism. An Intellectual Monopoly.. Might.
IMO and feel free to tell me to move it to random static.
