Is Solomani evil?

[jatay3]

The Solomani Confederation is not evil in itself because a state is a mere machine and it's good or evil comes from how it is used

However an ideology can be evil because it gives a system of ideas about what is right and what is wrong-if it teaches people to do evil than an ideology is evil

and a person can be evil

Thus the Solimani Cause is evil

The rulers of the Solimani Confederation are often evil

The Solimani Confederation is just a machine

 

[jatay3]

The Solomani Confederation is not evil in itself because a state is a mere machine and it's good or evil comes from how it is used

However an ideology can be evil because it gives a system of ideas about what is right and what is wrong-if it teaches people to do evil than an ideology is evil

and a person can be evil

Thus the Solimani Cause is evil

The rulers of the Solimani Confederation are often evil

The Solimani Confederation is just a machine
-----------------------
of course there are lots of "yeah buts" and "what abouts"

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Anthony:
The only evidence we actually have (statistical analysis of UWPs) appears to give the Solomani pretty much exactly the same mix of government types as the Imperium. Which, in turn, implies that the government is probably neither significantly more oppressive, nor significantly more intrusive, than the Imperium.

Well according to what I know of my CT Alien Module 6, The Solomani....

The Solomani Confederation itself is not a dictatorship, nor is it an oppressive government towards its own SOLOMANI CITIZENS. However, it *is* a racist policy government, and it treats non-Solomani (especially alien races) as second-rate citizens inside its territories.

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by saulweaver:
Second, in the Far Future they are going to know a lot more about genetics. They will be able to identify how Terrans are different that Viliani, let alone the differnce between Terran and Hiver, and they will not just be relegated to stereotypes as a basis for the racism. Nor will science have to rely on the shapes of people's heads to determine racial differences. In other words, racism will be much more scientifically based.

Ahhh you have an excellent point! In the far future, racism will likely be based on genetic comparisons because Genetic Sciences will be more advanced by then. Hence racism in the far future might mean something more like "Our DNA is better than yours! So we rule, and you guys suck!"

Many people forget... science/knowledge can be used for good, or it can also be used to push evil/hateful agendas as well.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by saulweaver:
Second, in the Far Future they are going to know a lot more about genetics. They will be able to identify how Terrans are different that Viliani, let alone the differnce between Terran and Hiver, and they will not just be relegated to stereotypes as a basis for the racism. Nor will science have to rely on the shapes of people's heads to determine racial differences. In other words, racism will be much more scientifically based.

Ahhh you have an excellent point! In the far future, racism will likely be based on genetic comparisons because Genetic Sciences will be more advanced by then. Hence racism in the far future might mean something more like "Our DNA is better than yours! So we rule, and you guys suck!" </font>[/QUOTE]I don't see how that point is at all different to the concept of physiognamy used when there was still a British Empire kicking around. They considered blacks to be stupid and subhuman because of the shape of their heads when compared to whites.

How is that any different to comparing one race's DNA to another's? Difference in degree, perhaps, but the end result is the same. So in other words, it isn't a new concept nor is it valid.

 

[J.C.D.]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
I just read 'case for the solomani' and some other Solomani related stuff in TD#19. They show a tinge of the neo-fascist, but they also reveal a lot about why the Solomani feel the way they do. The bits where they expose the transcripts of public announcements from party, solsec, and finance about the plans to attack the Imperium to get Terra back (among other things... some of them see themselves as saviours for the 11 trillion humans in the Empire...) were good.

The best part was where the finance minister raises the sorts of points about growing disruption, the problem where SolSec or military have had to engage Solomani populations, etc. He does give a very clear idea of a factionated Confederation as relative to the Empire and one with a large (though perhaps not heard so much in the PR end) liberal movement.

I can't rightly post the whole article, but if anyone is interested, I could probably snippet some of the key lines...

Tomb

What is TD#19? A magazine?

 

[mike wightman]

It's a magazine, called The Travellers' Digest, published by Digest Group Publications.

 

[J.C.D.]

Well, the solomani have bad and good points. I mean, the imperium is ran by a hereditary caste system and megacorporations, people don't really have much in the way of political freedom, there's no democracy, etc.

The solomani may be racist, but at least they have democratic governments, popular votes, elections, etc. Also they do not allow big business to dominate their polity.

Of course in modern america people have been brainwashed and conditioned to think that NOTHING is worse or as bad as a "RACIST!!!" and that "RACISM!!!" is the ULTIMATE evil.

Popular culture goes out of it's way to portray this view because it's so PC.

I don't see the solomani as all that bad, and maybe not all that incorrect on many issues. The one thing I do consider the solomani to be wrong on is it's attitudes towards aliens. I mean, if the solomani want to say they're the best of the human race, well the way the terrans rolled up the vilani imperium could be looked upon as evidence of that, but where do the solomani get off claiming to be superior to the hivers, the aslan or the ancients?

As to other humans, well I'd consider the solomani better than the zhodani because I find the zhodani to be the most horrible thing I can imagine, even worse than the k'kree.

I don't see the solomani as evil. Then again, I have never let myself be brainwashed into accepting the belief that "RACISM!!!" is the ultimate evil, worse than murder, child molesting, etc.


I'd rather be a solomani than a zhodani.

 

[stofsk]

I think the correct term would be 'specist'. As in, the Solomani are against other alien species, not races. (scifi tends to forget there's a big difference between the two)

I don't know what the basis for that is, but if you look at it: the K'Kree want to murder all meat-eaters, the Hivers are grandmaster manipulators, the Aslan are like Kilrathi (warrior race bent on landgrabs), and the Vargr have raided human planets mercilessly and ruthlessly.

Or in other words, xenoc scum.

And ask yourself this honestly. We tolerate many dangerous animals on this world, but what would happen if something like a Lion or Crocodile were intelligent, semi-aware, and capable of tool-making to the same degree as we were thousands of years ago? What if they were as intelligent as we are, completely self-aware, and could use the tools we make for ourselves, like today, RIGHT NOW?

Two species competing for resources, and it gets ugly. Scifi often uses the human vs alien theme as a way to explore race issues, forgetting for the billionth time that alien speces are not analogous to racial hatred, because they're not a separate race to us! You can't imagine the Narn as blacks and the Centauri as the British, because it DOESN'T work. You literally have to think "well what if this animal that's looking at me like I'm a happy meal on legs had a rifle pointed at me?"

Sometimes you can look at an animal and go "Yeah, we'd still be friends" and you get an alien race like the Vargr. Then you look at something like the K'Kree and think "...Hmm... PETA crossed with a horse, now they can chase me down no matter how fast I run. Boy, I hope they didn't see me go into KFC.. oh damn, they just kicked out my spleen. I guess they did... oh whoop, there go my lungs. I'll die soon."

 

[kafka47]

Actually, I think that canon will support me on this but I don't believe even the Solomani are specist. They believe in the natural superiority of Terran humans over the other alien races because not for biological reasons but historical reasons.

Terrans, after a turbulent past managed to get off their backsides and rule almost all of Charted Space in a very short span of time.

Humaniti is protrayed in Traveller as central going back to Marc's early mission statement.

In addition, there is great rivary within the Solomani Party over the meaning of the Cause, so that any one definition would not apply to every world. Rather it is guiding principle rather than an ideology.

The alien races of the Confederation are not considered like undermenschen but rather like Gastarbeiter in the human effort to shape the galaxy in their own image. The Imperium has a similar image but it makes the aliens found within an equal partner, save when they rise or aspire too high...as proven in MT with the Julian faction. Again, the parallels with the 3I with the United States Reconstruction period immediately after the Civil War ought to be heeded.

So, while it is fun to make the Solomani the Nazis of space, they are far from it. Rather, they are like B5 Clark's Terra or Bush's America - fear can do dangerious things to a polity even one that is democratic.

Therefore, the Solomani are not neccessarily stupid. They know each of the Alien races to be found across the galaxy have distinct advantages over humaniti in their domestic environment. But, thus far, it is only humaniti who has reached to the stars and grasp them as their own. Every Solomani would give the Aslan, K'kree, Hiver their space but it is humaniti's destiny that seeks to bring them all together. That is the Solomani vision.

 

[rancke]

I wonder if this is a big hunk of troll-bait, but I'll bite.

Originally posted by stofsk:
I think the correct term would be 'specist'. As in, the Solomani are against other alien species, not races. (scifi tends to forget there's a big difference between the two)

They consider Homo sapiens sapiens to be superior to all the other Major and Minor human races as well as to all other intelligent species. That both racist and speciist.

I don't know what the basis for that is, but if you look at it: the K'Kree want to murder all meat-eaters, the Hivers are grandmaster manipulators,

Something that practically no human knows, though.

the Aslan are like Kilrathi (warrior race bent on landgrabs), and the Vargr have raided human planets mercilessly and ruthlessly.

So have humans.

And ask yourself this honestly. We tolerate many dangerous animals on this world, but what would happen if something like a Lion or Crocodile were intelligent, semi-aware, and capable of tool-making to the same degree as we were thousands of years ago?

Obviously the lion would be lionized and the crocodile would be accesorized.

What if they were as intelligent as we are, completely self-aware, and could use the tools we make for ourselves, like today, RIGHT NOW?

We'd either have worked out a modus vivendi with them throusands of years ago or one species would have exterminated the others by now. My bet would be on the first possibility.

Two species competing for resources, and it gets ugly.

Not necessarily any more ugly than two groups of the same species competing for resources.

Scifi often uses the human vs alien theme as a way to explore race issues, forgetting for the billionth time that alien speces are not analogous to racial hatred, because they're not a separate race to us!

Ah, that's what makes it analogous to racial hatred. If they had been a sub-group of Homo sapiens then it would have been straight racial hatred.

You can't imagine the Narn as blacks and the Centauri as the British, because it DOESN'T work. You literally have to think "well what if this animal that's looking at me like I'm a happy meal on legs had a rifle pointed at me?"

Not an animal. A sapient being. It's not the animal part of your example that bothers me, it's the licking of lips and rifle-pointing bits. And my reaction would be exactly the same as my reaction to a human who looked at me like that and pointed a rifle at me. Just as my reaction to an alien who let me in peace would be exactly the same as my reaction to humans who let me in peace.


Hans

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Obviously the lion would be lionized and the crocodile would be accesorized."

 

[J.C.D.]

Doesn't everyone know the k'kree are xenocidal bigots and militant vegans?

 

[J.C.D.]

BTW, shouldn't the title of this thread be "Are solomani evil?"

Another point: In the bit about how aliens are like animals with guns, we have to remember a little principle called "M.A.D." which kept the peace on earth for 50 years+ among nuclear powers.

In traveller, it might not be a case of one species wiping out another, it might be a case of both species either living together somehow or wiping each other out.

The assurance that if they xxxx with the hivers, the hivers will xxxx them right back has kept the k'kree in line, and similar cases od assured payback might maintain an uneasy peace in the rest of the galaxy.

A balance of terror can keep things stable.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by J.C.D.:
Another point: In the bit about how aliens are like animals with guns, we have to remember a little principle called "M.A.D." which kept the peace on earth for 50 years+ among nuclear powers.

Ever read the story of Stanislav Petrov?

In traveller, it might not be a case of one species wiping out another, it might be a case of both species either living together somehow or wiping each other out.

The analogy more or less referred to what we, as a species, would do if we had to compete resources with another intelligent, took-making species on this world.

The possibility exists that we might live together peacefully, but the possibility also exists that there would be a war of survival. Whether that results in MAD though, who can say?

The assurance that if they xxxx with the hivers, the hivers will xxxx them right back has kept the k'kree in line, and similar cases od assured payback might maintain an uneasy peace in the rest of the galaxy.

Having just got the Gateway to Destiny book, I'd like to say the Hivers are cool for what they did to the K'Kree and their threat.

 

[Maladominus]

Just wanted to add that the Solomani did some very benevolent (i.e. non-evil) things.

How many of you are aware of the JTAS/TD articles and accounts of Solomani responsible for the Uplift of several Terran species?

Geneered Dolphins... Tursiops Galactis is one example. And another is the uplifted form of Orca Orcinus in Sufren (Diaspora). Let me quote some text so ya'll get the idea of Solomani "uplift" of animal species:


In the centuries since, the Dolphins have proved themselves to be fantastically adaptive and very loyal to the Solomani government. The reason for their loyalty has very little to do with political philosophies, as Dolphin psychology is radically different from their human patrons. Rather, each and every Dolphin is acutely aware that the Solomani gave them the gift of sentience, and they feel indebted to the Terrans for this. The Solomani have not discouraged this way of thinking; in fact, they have fostered it.

By the close of the Third Imperium's first millennium (the 56th century by the Terran calendar), GenAssist had virtually reached the status of a megacorporation within the Solomani Sphere. Over two dozen other species from various worlds have been elevated to intelligence under their guidance and each is now, more or less, a loyal member of the Solomani Confederation.


Of course I could also quote the snippet that a FEW Dolphins who were considered "not sane" were of the Rogue profession, and were documented to have acted as Solomani-backed terrorists (i.e. they staged terrorism against the Imperium, etc). But I personally have a HARD time imagining such a wonderful animal trained into a high-tech mass-murderer.

 

[J.C.D.]

Originally posted by stofsk:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by J.C.D.:
Another point: In the bit about how aliens are like animals with guns, we have to remember a little principle called "M.A.D." which kept the peace on earth for 50 years+ among nuclear powers.

Ever read the story of Stanislav Petrov?

In traveller, it might not be a case of one species wiping out another, it might be a case of both species either living together somehow or wiping each other out.

The analogy more or less referred to what we, as a species, would do if we had to compete resources with another intelligent, took-making species on this world.

The possibility exists that we might live together peacefully, but the possibility also exists that there would be a war of survival. Whether that results in MAD though, who can say?

The assurance that if they xxxx with the hivers, the hivers will xxxx them right back has kept the k'kree in line, and similar cases od assured payback might maintain an uneasy peace in the rest of the galaxy.

Having just got the Gateway to Destiny book, I'd like to say the Hivers are cool for what they did to the K'Kree and their threat. </font>[/QUOTE]Never heard of that stanislav guy, but on your last line, sfofsk, (BTW, WTF does your name mean anyway ) we agree completely.

K'kree are one of the few 4 legged things I don't like. It's close but I hate the zhoads a little more than them, but not by much.

 

[mike wightman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov

google, and wikipedia, is your friend

 

[stofsk]

I brought up Stanislav Petrov because of the whole notion of MAD 'keeping the peace'. Works in theory, I guess, but would it stop a random event? What if Petrov wasn't the guy in charge that day?

Stofsk is just a nickname of mine I've had since high school. It's a contraction of my surname, Szitovszky.

 

[J.C.D.]

Oh, ok, from your avatar I thought it migth have been some pharoah or other egyptian historical figure. I've heard of more of them than most people, but don't know them all.