Is the Traveller Market Fractured

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
perhaps the smart move is to develop "new stuff" for original Traveller, since that's where the lion's share of the market is right now. If the publishers and some gamers are concerned about "fracturing the market," why on earth would you go away from where most people are playing the game?

Because it's a dead end. To stick to the D&D analogy, it's akin to publishing, in 1999, new material for cranky ole 1E instead of developing a rock-solid 3E, and publishing material for that. (Clearly, I'm saying here what IMHO should happen: T5 should be rock-solid, and of course it should be set in the CT universe, not in yet another milieu.)

The reason 1248 doesn't sell that well is very simple. Again, in D&D terms, it's like Judges' Guild publishing material for a new setting in 1999. Anything that's not issued by Marc himself will sell a fraction of what it could if it were.

Exception, as always: T20, because it catches those stray D&D players. Even a morsel of a shard of a fraction of them is a viable market for a company like QLI.

For the record, I've been a member of ENWorld for years and only recently joined Dragonsfoot. I played and refereed 3.0 and played 3.5 (briefly), and I played a lot of d20 Modern, some d20 Call of Cthulhu, and some Grim Tales.

I may be a grognard, but I don't live in a cave watching shadow pictures.

All you need to do then is port that open-mindedness over from D&D to Trav, and you're golden.

Look, 3E got me back into D&D after like 10 years of disgust. I'm burned out on it now and am rediscovering my love for 1980/81 Basic, but 3E is stellar at what it tries to do. If only we could say that for any Trav edition.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Because T20's setting is so similar, supplements produced for it could be dropped into a normal CT game pretty easily.

Just out of curiosity, have you actually tried it yourself? No, of course not, you don't actually play the game, do you?

If you had you'd notice the inconsistencies between what is claimed to be backwards compatible, and what really is.

If I was only buy the setting for background fluff, like I did GURPS Interstellar Wars, then it's not a problem, but when I buy a starship supplement, or a gear guide, and the crunchy bits I bought it for don't match up, that's a problem for me.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Avenger have also been actively producing material that can be used in CT games as well as their own 1248 stuff.

And I've purchased some of it.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And they're doing 1248 because there is a demand (mostly from the old TNE fanbase) for something that actually continues the Traveller timeline instead of faffing around with bygone eras. . .

And the portion of the overall market that is interested in continuing the New Era timeline is what exactly?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Because sometimes it's worth supporting the niches too. With your logic, there'd be no such thing as speciality cars or top of the line stereo systems either. They're made because there is a smaller market of people who can justify their production.

Great argument, except that it has no basis in fact: I wasn't talking about specialty cars or stereo systems, not did I suggest that was was good for Traveller publishers was good for BMW or Blaupunkt. (Those pesky logical fallacies are creeping in again. . .)

This thread is about fracturing or fragmenting the Traveller fanbase. Are you suggesting that supporting the New Era crowd with 1248 is a good thing, even if it contibutes to further splintering? Isn't that fracturing exactly what many in this thread are concerned about?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
As a setting it's got a lot more going for it than CT ever had. . .

Tastes vary. Yours isn't universal. Neither is mine.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
. . .and certainly has more than the sociology-textbook/instruction-manual-that-is-T5.

Again, I hold no opinion on something that I haven't seen yet.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I think the real question (that I've asked a lot and has never been satisfactorily answered) is "what reason should 'noobs' have to even be interested in Traveller in the first place?". The competition arguably does everything that Traveller does much better - so why play Traveller?

As was offered upthread, Traveller continues to hold a reasonable position in the RPG market, so your argument fails on the facts.

 

[flykiller]

So, is 1248 how we get more noobs interested in Traveller?

one of the ways, yeah. least that's how I understand it.

from the beginning one of the complaints against the traveller setting was that the game universe was so big that the player characters were lost in it, and that they just weren't important or even significant in the overall universal scheme of the setting. the rebellion and tne were attempts to break down the traveller universe into something in which an individual character could be important. 1248 is a continuation of that effort - trying to make the player character a big fish in a little pond, to make him somebody important.

of course, whether a new player would be attracted to being a "bearer of the flame" in a traveller setting is another matter.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by Rhialto the Marvelous:
Exception, as always: T20, because it catches those stray D&D players. Even a morsel of a shard of a fraction of them is a viable market for a company like QLI.

Indeed. Smart business move to shake that d20 money tree while there were still some leaves on it.

Originally posted by Rhialto the Marvelous:
All you need to do then is port that open-mindedness over from D&D to Trav, and you're golden.

I'm the guy who uses BITS combat and trade systems in my ATU - I'm open to new material, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to toss out a game I enjoy to chase after The Latest Thing.

Originally posted by Rhialto the Marvelous:
. . .but 3E is stellar at what it tries to do. If only we could say that for any Trav edition.

And that lies at the crux of our disagreement - I think classic Traveller is stellar at what it does, which is why I play it and will continue to play it for the foreseeable future.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by flykiller:
[Some good points snipped here.]

Understood.

Is making Traveller as much like Star Wars as possible, in the sense of making the player characters "Big Damn Heroes" able to shake the very foundations of the universe, a goal to which the game should aspire? Or is Traveller's niche of, "Average Joes in Spaaaaace!" one worth exploiting?

I agree that the BDH model dominates the market right now, but should it be a goal for Traveller to chase after market dominance, or just be really good at its alternative approach to roleplaying heroes?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
Just out of curiosity, have you actually tried it yourself? No, of course not, you don't actually play the game, do you?

I have played it, and besides, it's a complete fallacy to claim that you need to play a game to understand how it works.

If you had you'd notice the inconsistencies between what is claimed to be backwards compatible, and what really is.

I know there are issues with it, I've never claimed there weren't. I'm talking about the setting here, not the systems. And the setting is by and large compatible with that of CT, because there's not much difference in the technologies of the eras. The events going on in the background are a bit different, but that's it.

If I was only buy the setting for background fluff, like I did GURPS Interstellar Wars, then it's not a problem, but when I buy a starship supplement, or a gear guide, and the crunchy bits I bought it for don't match up, that's a problem for me.

I thought T20 supplements had CT stats in them too?

Great argument, except that it has no basis in fact: I wasn't talking about specialty cars or stereo systems, not did I suggest that was was good for Traveller publishers was good for BMW or Blaupunkt. (Those pesky logical fallacies are creeping in again. . .)p

You know, I can always tell when you're losing the argument because that's when you start claiming that you're running rings around your opponent.

With 1248 Avenger is catering to the existing market that liked TNE and wanted to see it move on, and also hoping to get new players interested in a dynamic, exciting Traveller setting where their characters can make a difference. You can sit there and harangue them for catering to a niche in the market, but they're doing pretty well out of it and so long as that's the case then their existence is justified. Same applies to the fancy car and stereo makers - if their niche market wasn't there, then they wouldn't be in business.

The fact that you fail to see why a manufacturer would bother to cater to anyone else that isn't the core market indicates more a lack of understanding on your part than a lack of business acumen on the manufacturers' side.

This thread is about fracturing or fragmenting the Traveller fanbase. Are you suggesting that supporting the New Era crowd with 1248 is a good thing, even if it contibutes to further splintering? Isn't that fracturing exactly what many in this thread are concerned about?

No, because 1248 is just a setting, not a new system. It's a systemless product too, IIRC. It's there to cater to the existing market (and any generic sf gamers too, since they can just as easily take the setting and drop it into whatever system they're using).

T5 on the other hand is going to be a new system, and THAT is what fragments the market because then we'll have people playing CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20 AND T5.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
. . .and certainly has more than the sociology-textbook/instruction-manual-that-is-T5.

Again, I hold no opinion on something that I haven't seen yet.</font>[/QUOTE]So you keep saying. However, I have seen it, and that's my opinion of it.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
As was offered upthread, Traveller continues to hold a reasonable position in the RPG market, so your argument fails on the facts.

My arguments are well supported by facts (not anecdotal evidence), actually - I wouldn't be saying them otherwise.

Traveller doesn't remotely hold a 'reasonable position in the RPG market' - it may be widely recognised by name and reputation but I'd be very surprised if it rated in the top 5 or even top 10 SF games in monthly sales given that GURPS Space, Star HERO (both of which are vastly superior generic sf toolkits), Shadowrun, Battletech, and a myriad of other SF games are around and actually being produced and put on the shelves of the gaming stores. I've not seen any new Traveller books on the shelves for years now, and PDF sales still really don't count for all that much in market share.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
I agree that the BDH model dominates the market right now, but should it be a goal for Traveller to chase after market dominance, or just be really good at its alternative approach to roleplaying heroes? [/QB]

So now suddenly you've changed your mind? I thought you were all for aiming Traveller at the core market, not the little niches around it?

And the BDH model has always dominated the market, it's not some temporary fad - that's what D&D had right from the 1970s. That's what White Wolf has always done (PCs are special, not just ordinary guys) and they've been wildly popular since they first started in the early 90s.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Actually it told me that you're one of the usual grognard types who thinks that anything beyond CT is a heresy and who has little or zero interest in moving beyond what you're familiar with.

I didn't care for the GDW metaplot of breaking up then breaking down the Third Imperium. That doesn't make it "heresy": it means it didn't appeal to me.

I don't continue to play in an un-shattered, un-infected Third Imperium setting because it's "familiar": I play in it because I like it.

It's not holy writ, and it's not a warm snuggly blanket - it's just what I enjoy. Is that really so difficult to comprehend?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Avenger is also publishing supplements and adventures of course, but with considerably higher production values. If there's a great white hope for Traveller it's them, IMO.

Here's where being an actual Traveller player makes a difference: I use my BITS books every single time we play - my Avenger stuff is backed up on a CD-ROM somewhere.

Screw production values - I want books that actually make a difference on game night.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So now suddenly you've changed your mind? I thought you were all for aiming Traveller at the core market, not the little niches around it?

The core market of current Traveller players and those likely to be interested in the game, not the core market of roleplaying gamers in general.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And the BDH model has always dominated the market, it's not some temporary fad - that's what D&D had right from the 1970s. That's what White Wolf has always done (PCs are special, not just ordinary guys) and they've been wildly popular since they first started in the early 90s.

The BDH has evolved over time, which is a great subject for another thread (or even another board, really, since it ties into all that Forgey stuff).

And Traveller has always found its niche at the other end of the spectrum. That's been one source of its appeal. Traveller isn't Star Wars and never will be - for some of us, that's A Good Thing.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
It's not holy writ, and it's not a warm snuggly blanket - it's just what I enjoy. Is that really so difficult to comprehend?

No, I understand that fine. But for someone who is apparently so laissez-faire about what's published for Traveller you seem very quick to dismiss other editions as "vanity projects" that you seem to disapprove of.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
my Avenger stuff is backed up on a CD-ROM somewhere.

So print the damn stuff out and start using it then! You can't just sit there and dismiss the Avenger stuff when the problem is that you can't be bothered to use it in the first place.

Screw production values - I want books that actually make a difference on game night.

Now you have a point that the BITS stuff is good for providing lots of little nuggets to throw in during gametime. The problem is that it's only useful for GMs, not players (who usually outnumber the GMs). Splat books work so well for a reason - because they appeal to the players who can then buy and use them in the games they play - and they're the majority of any game's market.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
The core market of current Traveller players and those likely to be interested in the game, not the core market of roleplaying gamers in general.

And why should you ignore the core market of general RPG gamers, exactly? That's what's going to grow the Traveller market, after all. If you don't appeal to them then how do you expect to get more people playing Traveller?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And Traveller has always found its niche at the other end of the spectrum. That's been one source of its appeal. Traveller isn't Star Wars and never will be - for some of us, that's A Good Thing. [/QB]

And that's precisely why it's not appealed to most of the market - because they're not interested in playing "average joes" who are tiny specks in a huge universe, worrying about where their next mortgage payment is going to come from.

Of course, in a straight SF game it's a lot harder to make a difference - unless you have the players being part of a subset of people who have funky powers (psionics, supers, giant robots, whatever). Suddenly they're special then. Vanilla Traveller is just too mundane to appeal to the mass market.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I have played it, and besides, it's a complete fallacy to claim that you need to play a game to understand how it works.

Originally posted by Malenfant:I'm talking about the setting here, not the systems. And the setting is by and large compatible with that of CT, because there's not much difference in the technologies of the eras. The events going on in the background are a bit different, but that's it.

But since we have a setting that we use already, the setting stuff is of no value to me - the system stuff is, or would be, if in fact that were compatible.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I thought T20 supplements had CT stats in them too?

Go back and re-read what I wrote.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
You know, I can always tell when you're losing the argument because that's when you start claiming that you're running rings around your opponent.

Here, learn something.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
With 1248 Avenger is catering to the existing market that liked TNE and wanted to see it move on, and also hoping to get new players interested in a dynamic, exciting Traveller setting where their characters can make a difference. You can sit there and harangue them for catering to a niche in the market, but they're doing pretty well out of it and so long as that's the case then their existence is justified.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I disagree. Our disagreement is what makes possible discussions like this one. Hooray for disagreement.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
The fact that you fail to see why a manufacturer would bother to cater to anyone else that isn't the core market indicates more a lack of understanding on your part than a lack of business acumen on the manufacturers' side.

I understand it just fine - I'm suggesting that if fragmenting the market is an issue, then maybe it's not the best strategy to pursue.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
No, because 1248 is just a setting, not a new system. It's a systemless product too, IIRC. It's there to cater to the existing market (and any generic sf gamers too, since they can just as easily take the setting and drop it into whatever system they're using).

And again we disagree on a fundamental premise: I don't know that the new settings promote the game as well as support for the most widely-played setting according to what I've read here.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
T5 on the other hand is going to be a new system, and THAT is what fragments the market because then we'll have people playing CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20 AND T5.

Makes those generic supplements sound better and better all the time.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So you keep saying. However, I have seen it, and that's my opinion of it.

And you're certainly welcome to it.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
My arguments are well supported by facts (not anecdotal evidence), actually - I wouldn't be saying them otherwise.

What "facts" have you offered?!?

Hunter Gordon and Martin Dougherty have given us a window into their respective sales figures - what have you offered except hyperbole?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Traveller doesn't remotely hold a 'reasonable position in the RPG market' - it may be widely recognised by name and reputation but I'd be very surprised if it rated in the top 5 or even top 10 SF games in monthly sales. . .

Go back up-thread and look at Hunter's figures for the market: for a RPG that doesn't try to be the flavor of the month, they are respectable.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So print the damn stuff out and start using it then! You can't just sit there and dismiss the Avenger stuff when the problem is that you can't be bothered to use it in the first place.

Oh for the love of Pete. . .

I don't use the Avenger stuff because it SUCKS, not because I didn't print it out. THAT'S why it's backed up - I don't even want it on my harddrive.

And with that it's long past time for me to sign off.

 

[flykiller]

Is making Traveller as much like Star Wars as possible, in the sense of making the player characters "Big Damn Heroes" able to shake the very foundations of the universe, a goal to which the game should aspire? Or is Traveller's niche of, "Average Joes in Spaaaaace!" one worth exploiting?

(laugh) 'pends. are you a gamer or a publisher? I mean, if you're a publisher, you have to go where the market for what you produce is.

... should it be a goal for Traveller to chase after market dominance, or just be really good at its alternative approach to roleplaying heroes?

near as I can figure market dominance is out of the question. selling more books, however, is not.

 

[Malenfant]

I really can't be bothered with you anymore, Shaman. You just seem to be going out of your way to be obstructive, obtuse and argumentative, and you also seem to think that the fact that you don't know something means that you can dismiss anything said by people who do know something about it. And I've really not seen any evidence that you really know what you're talking about - I've seen a lot of flawed assumptions and prancing around the point instead, and I'm not going to waste any more of my time talking to you.

If you're so damn happy playing what you play then this discussion should be of no interest or consequence to you whatsoever, so I don't even know why you're wasting your time by posting on it. So why don't you do us all a favour and leave this discussion for people who actually care about the Traveller market.

And your attitude is exactly that of a hardcore grognard - trying to pretend otherwise just makes you look ridiculous. I suspect the reason you think the Avenger stuff "sucks" is because it doesn't conform to your very narrow view of what you think makes Traveller enjoyable.

Personally I think the Avenger material is lightyears ahead of most of the amateur garbage that was released for CT. I think it's well-presented, well-written, well-thought out and has a lot of depth and potential for expansion and it's damn good value for money, and I'd strongly encourage those who actually have an open mind and want some interesting adventures and campaigns to put in their CT games to check them out.

 

[MJD]

I do so like to see people screaming that my work SUCKS!!!! I'm sometimes moved to ask why they think that. Why DO you think that, Shaman?


About that CT core market, Shaman. Here's a funny thing. I deliberately created a product line to cater to it. CT compatible stats, set in the Marches in the Golden Age. Deliberately similar in flavour to the LBB adventures. Even following up some themes from those. This stuff was as CT as CT can be.

It sold okayish.

And that's it. Okayish. This core market that everyone should be supporting? Took no real notice (maybe the books sucked in some way I've not been informed of).

1248 materials sold better.

Based on actual experience in the marketplace, Avenger can't remain viable doing CT materials, but it CAN do okay selling 1248.

And about 1248. It is my opinion that 1248 offers all that each other variant setting did and more.

Stable Imperium (CT) - yes. Trade, scheme and whatnot within the Fourth Imperium. And other states too -The Terrans, the Second Rule of Man for example. Room for border friction that won't destroy the entire setting if it goes hot...

Endless War (MT) - yes. There are big factions and pocket empires, and conflict between some of them.

Among the Ruins (TNE) - help rebuild the Wilds, or explore them, or even try to create your own pocket empire.


As to the Average Joes/Big Damn Heroes thing, 1248 does not turn travellers into giants. But the scale is such that a shipful of guys can make a difference. Not a big one maybe, but you can make things a little better/worse in the local area.

And more than anything else - the future is not written in stone. No need to wonder if your CT campaign will reach the assassination date, or if the shipping traffic in MT is too high for the phase of the war...

1248 is open and fresh. It's a place where players can help shape the future and make a difference. And in so many ways.

I fail to see how that sucks, but what do I know?

 

[Malenfant]

As the kids of today would say: OWNED!

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by MJD:
I do so like to see people screaming that my work SUCKS!!!! I'm sometimes moved to ask why they think that. Why DO you think that, Shaman?

To be fair, I only used one exclaimation point. The capitalization was excessive, I admit.

That's a reasonable question, so I'll tell you what - I'll dig out my CD-ROM with the Avenger .pdfs on it, wipe off the dust, and post reviews at ENWorld detailing why I didn't like them. When that's done I'll PM you a link so you don't miss them.

 

[Roger Calver]

You have already told people that you think they suck so any reviews that you do are going to be biased anyway.
But then again each to their own I suppose, IMO the 1248 book's are a breath of fresh air for Traveller and Martin work handles the situation very well.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
I may be a grognard, but I don't live in a cave watching shadow pictures.

You've gotta' love those references to ancient Greek philosophy.