Is the Traveller Market Fractured

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I really can't be bothered with you anymore, Shaman.

Please, by all means, feel free to never reply to my posts. I promise not to miss them.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
You just seem to be going out of your way to be obstructive, obtuse and argumentative. . .

(Sounds like a Monty Python law firm, doesn't it? "Obstructive, Obtuse, and Argumentative, Solicitors, 1 Miss Carriage Way, Berks.")

Originally posted by Malenfant:
. . .and you also seem to think that the fact that you don't know something means that you can dismiss anything said by people who do know something about it.

I'm reserving judgement on something I haven't seen yet.

I know, I'm supposed to respond to every rumor and opinion with strongly-worded invective and stake out a position on any proposed change and defend it to the death, whether I've actually seen those changes or not. I guess I'm just not good at playing Internet.

It really irks you that I won't simply take your opinion and make it my own, doesn't it?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And I've really not seen any evidence that you really know what you're talking about - I've seen a lot of flawed assumptions and prancing around the point instead, and I'm not going to waste any more of my time talking to you.

Again, please feel free to stop replying at any time. I can't miss you if you won't go away, y'know.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
If you're so damn happy playing what you play then this discussion should be of no interest or consequence to you whatsoever, so I don't even know why you're wasting your time by posting on it. So why don't you do us all a favour and leave this discussion for people who actually care about the Traveller market.

Really? You actually care about the Traveller market? Okay, I'll bite. . .

Why?

Why is Traveller's position in the RPG market so important to you? You've said in this thread that the "competition arguably does everything that Traveller does much better," so why make Traveller your cause? Why not support one of those other games instead (and go haunt their boards while you're at it)? Why spend hours upon hours of time raging on and on about how bad Traveller is?

Seriously, what's it to you?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And your attitude is exactly that of a hardcore grognard - trying to pretend otherwise just makes you look ridiculous.

Not nearly as ridiculous as spending so much time deriding a game you don't play and vehemently dislike (along with the people who do enjoy it) while simultaneously claiming to be working to improve it's position in the RPG market.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by RogerCalver:
You have already told people that you think they suck so any reviews that you do are going to be biased anyway.

Wait a sec, so anyone who writes a less-than-flattering review is biased against the product?

If I said that Martin drowned puppies for sport and I'm going to trash Avenger products because he's an animal abuser, that would be biased. As it stands, I bought some Avenger products, and I was underwhelmed - Martin asked for feedback, so I'll post a product review explaining why.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by atpollard:
You've gotta' love those references to ancient Greek philosophy.

 

[Malenfant]

Let me ask you something, Shaman: Have you ever published any RPG products? Or anything for Traveller? Have you had any experience working for an RPG company at all? I have on all three counts, so I'm in a position to know what I'm talking about here - are you? I suspect you haven't - yet you seem to think that just because you actively play the game gives you some god-given authoritative tone in any discussion when it's not relevant to anything at all. All I see is yet another newcomer to these boards swanning in and thinking he knows everything.

And also you've once again proved that you're all hot air and no content - Martin asked you to back up your opinions and all you've done is posted your usual sort of smug, condescending, pedantic reply and said that you'll go spread bad publicity about Avenger elsewhere instead - I think that says a lot about you right there. Congratulations, you just completely destroyed your credibility.

And like I said elsewhere, why I - or anyone - posts here is nobody else's business at all. I could equally ask you why you post here since you keep smugly telling us all how none of this is relevant to you since you'll carry on playing what you play regardless. Bully for you then, but for someone who apparently is making such a big point about not caring you sure seem to be sticking your oar in a hell of a lot.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
As it stands, I bought some Avenger products, and I was underwhelmed - Martin asked for feedback, so I'll post a product review explaining why. [/QB]

No, you said "it SUCKS!" (and I really don't give a damn how many exclamation marks you used), not that you were "underwhelmed" - there is a huge difference between the two.

If you'd civilly said you were "underwhelmed" then people could have just asked you what you didn't like about them. Obviously not everyone is going to like them, but at least then you're open for dialogue about it. But by screaming "it SUCKS!" that just sounds like you hate it outright and aren't interested in any kind of constructive dialogue about it (which does indeed seem to be the case since you've now said that you'll just go ahead and tell everyone how bad you think it is rather than actually entering any kind of dialogue with the author about it when asked to back up your opinion).

From what you've said elsewhere here, I really don't think you even looked at Avenger's products with an open mind to start with (particularly since you've already said you have no interest in moving beyond the CT-era games you're playing. Again you're being hypocritical though - if playing the game is so important to you then why would any review of something you had no intention of playing to start with have any validity?). Personally I think any review you did of it would be about as objective and balanced as the malicious, bile-filled, abusive crap I see in music magazines when someone review a CD by a band they don't like to start with and just turns it into a tirade against the artists.

I mean, you just know from the start that a "review" written by someone who screams "it SUCKS!" before he writes it is not going to be objective, constructive or useful to anyone.

 

[MJD]

Interesting.

 

[MJD]

I don't know if the review thing is a rhetorical device, a threat or a statement of intent... but if you feel the need, go ahead.

I asked why you (Shaman) thought my work sucked; there are several ways to tell me, like email or a post here in this thread. I suppose shouting it from a rooftop in the hope of damaging my company's sales is an option too.

If you feel the need that's your business. It's a risk I take, publishing material. But don't send me a triumphant message telling me you've done it. That goes way beyond civilised conduct.

I get the impression this had become personal for some reason, so I'm going to treat it like I treate Peter Gray when he called me an anti-american terrorist or something and demanded my execution for writing 1248 in a manner that didn't match his expectations. Or the people who sent me death threats...

I'll just say this:

If you want to correspond with me about how Avenger products could be improved, feel free. If you want to pursue a vendetta, that's not of any interest to me.

 

[The Shaman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Let me ask you something, Shaman: Have you ever published any RPG products? Or anything for Traveller? Have you had any experience working for an RPG company at all? I have on all three counts, so I'm in a position to know what I'm talking about here. . .

For RPGs, no,* but I have encountered plenty of frustrated game designers with a couple of credits and a whopping messiah complex who believe they know more about the business of gaming than they really do, and I don't really consider them to be credible sources like those who are actually publishing regularly, dealing with distributors, paying for marketing data, and so forth.

I don't pretend to know more than I do, which is why I ask a lot of questions and use a lot of hedge words like "perhaps" and "maybe." I don't put myself out there as an authority, and I make no claims to special insight - I'm just responding to some of what's been posted here, by those with actual data to share, wondering aloud if perhaps the market of Traveller gamers is really as fragmented and fractured as claimed, or if the decision to take the setting in new directions (Rim War, ISW, 1248) helps or hurts the long-term sales of the game or not.

If that's not the purpose of the thread, then what is?

Originally posted by Malenfant:
And like I said elsewhere, why I - or anyone - posts here is nobody else's business at all. I could equally ask you why you post here since you keep smugly telling us all how none of this is relevant to you since you'll carry on playing what you play regardless. Bully for you then, but for someone who apparently is making such a big point about not caring you sure seem to be sticking your oar in a hell of a lot. [/QB]

If publishers want to produce new material that we can incorporate into our game, I'm happy to pick it up - as I said, I own 4e GURPS Space and Interstellar Wars, some of the QLI and Avenger stuff, and many of the BITS books, all purchased within the last two years. Clearly I'm still willing to invest dollars in the game for quality products that add value to our time spent playing Traveller.

On the other hand, if all of the publishers currently active folded up their tents tomorrow, along with all of the out-of-print dealers, our game goes on completely unhindered by their absence.

Would I like to have more stuff for our game? Sure, if it's good, why not? Is it essential to our fun? Not at all.

As to why I posted in this thread specifically, what Hunter and Martin wrote about the Traveller market piqued my curiosity.

Since you choose to duck and weave any question about why you claim to care so much about a game you clearly can't stand, please get on with being done with me, okay?

And as for me, it's on to my list of honey-dos and a run in the park with my son - it's a beautiful day, and I'm going to get out there and enjoy it.

*I published On China Station, a fanzine of scenarios and optional rules for The Sword and the Flame, a miniatures wargame.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
For RPGs, no,* but [...]

So shut up and listen to people who do know something about it then. You're the one asking questions, so have the decency to accept answers from those who have that experience. Publishing something in an obscure fanzine does not give you any authority at all.

I have encountered plenty of frustrated game designers with a couple of credits and a whopping messiah complex who believe they know more about the business of gaming than they really do

For starters, someone who's successfully had their RPG material published is by definition not a "frustrated" game designer.

But since you've admitted that you haven't published anything and that you're not in the business of gaming, by what criteria are you judging their ability to provide knowledgeable answers to your questions? It seems to me you're just baselessly filtering out any arguments and facts that don't agree with your worldview by claiming that those who provide them aren't worth listening to.

Personally, I'd say that someone who has published material only in a small fanzine for a wargame (that isn't even in the RPG market) fits the bill of a "frustrated game designer" more than anyone else.

and I don't really consider them to be credible sources like those who are actually publishing regularly, dealing with distributors, paying for marketing data, and so forth

So by that it's clear that you only consider WotC and WW to be credible and ignore everyone else? Because those are probably the only two companies in the whole RPG business who can afford to do all of that. Everyone else does some of that at most, and maybe not any of it at all.

I'm just responding to some of what's been posted here, by those with actual data to share, wondering aloud if perhaps the market of Traveller gamers is really as fragmented and fractured as claimed, or if the decision to take the setting in new directions (Rim War, ISW, 1248) helps or hurts the long-term sales of the game or not.

If that's not the purpose of the thread, then what is?

This thread is about discussing the need for NEW SYSTEMS! NEW SYSTEMS. Let me repeat that again just to be absolutely clear - NEW SYSTEMS. Not SETTINGS. By SYSTEMS, we mean rulesets and game engines. By SETTINGS, we mean the fictional environment that those rules are applied in.

Now, can you see where you're completely missing the point? I suspect not, so let me spell it out for you.

1248 is a SETTING. A setting is NOT A SYSTEM.
IW is a SETTING. A setting is NOT A SYSTEM.
Rim War is a SETTING. A setting is NOT A SYSTEM.

Nobody has been arguing here about SETTINGS fracturing the Traveller Market - we've been talking about SYSTEMS, about whether or not the market needs or can support a new ruleset.

The SETTINGS that you claim are fracturing the market aren't doing that at all - they're all being made for either existing systems (IW = GURPS, Rim War = T20) or for any system (ie 1248). They are therefore not the issue.

Is that possibly clear enough for you?

As to why I posted in this thread specifically, what Hunter and Martin wrote about the Traveller market piqued my curiosity.

But you've already said that you dismiss their opinions since they're not huge publishers with reams of marketing data to satisfy your criteria for credibility.

Since you choose to duck and weave any question about why you claim to care so much about a game you clearly can't stand

Which is incorrect, but that's not going to stop you or Jeff thinking that you know or understand why I do anything (or even that you think you have a right to know) when you patently don't have a clue.

 

[sinbadsam]

*a large bearded, balding, bespectacled, massively built human male with a large gut, with a Blue Amazonian Parrot sitting on his left shoulder, holding a large yellow sign with with the words written upon it. "ONE WEEK" on the front. Parades the sign in front of certain members here."

Gentle sophonts I believe it is time to take a breath, it appears that this thread is becoming abit too heated in its discussions in this thread. I like the majority of what is being discussed here, with out the extra content.

But that is merely my opinion, please continue as you will.

 

[Malenfant]

Bringing this back on topic, I've noticed that The Shaman hasn't commented on some actual data that blows away his arguments completely - namely, what Martin said about the Avenger CT material not selling as well as their 1248 material.

Naturally his explanation for this is probably going to be to say "it's not selling well because it's crap" or somesuch, but that's just his own opinion and not based on anything objective. It's also not for lack of advertising either - I think most people here are well aware of the fact that Avenger publishes CT products.

Rather, it seems to be more down to the fact that people who play CT just plain aren't interested in buying more material for their games, because they're so picky about what they like or because they just can't fit into their games.

It's also possible that perhaps the older generation of gamers that play Traveller aren't into the idea of PDF products so much. Or maybe they don't have so much time or disposable income nowadays. I don't know how much of an effect those issues have, but they're probably reducing the Traveller market across the board.

But the point is, for whatever reason, people aren't buying CT products that are available in large enough numbers for Avenger at least to make it worth their while to continue supporting it. And that is definitely one in the eye for those who claim that CT is the core market.

 

[The Shaman]

What bizarro corner of the roleplaying gamer universe have I wandered into?

Originally posted by MJD:
I get the impression this had become personal for some reason, so I'm going to treat it like I treate Peter Gray when he called me an anti-american terrorist or something and demanded my execution for writing 1248 in a manner that didn't match his expectations. Or the people who sent me death threats...

I'll just say this:

If you want to correspond with me about how Avenger products could be improved, feel free. If you want to pursue a vendetta, that's not of any interest to me.

A vendetta?

Well, thank you for assuming that I can't write a fair review - once again I forgot that on the Internet, jumping to conclusions is a normal and expected part of dialog.

On a more serious note, thank you for sharing the information about the sales of Avenger's Golden Age and 1248 products. I'm disappointed to hear that the Golden Age books didn't sell better - I have some ideas why, but that's probably a stone best left unturned - but it does answer in part the questions about support I posed up-thread. Real information from people who are in a position to know is always appreciated.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
So shut up and listen to people who do know something about it then.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
For starters, someone who's successfully had their RPG material published is by definition not a "frustrated" game designer.

A couple of contributor credits, and suddenly you're Gary Gygax! Brilliant!

Originally posted by Malenfant:
]So by that it's clear that you only consider WotC and WW to be credible and ignore everyone else? Because those are probably the only two companies in the whole RPG business who can afford to do all of that. Everyone else does some of that at most, and maybe not any of it at all. . . .But you've already said that you dismiss [Hunter's and Martin's] opinions since they're not huge publishers with reams of marketing data to satisfy your criteria for credibility.

No, not even close - I was talking about Hunter and Martin, who both have established companies producing work for the Traveller market, who deal with distributors, and who have sales figures to inform their decisions - I thought I read that Hunter also paid for some marketing data when he established QLI, though I could be mistaken.

You? You got store credit from SJG for your fanzine articles!

This stopped being fun a page or two ago, and since you apparently lack the self-control to stop your hateful rantings like you said you would, I'll do us both a favor and bow out.

LD, I apologize if my bringing up SETTING!, NOT SYSTEM! - I GOT IT! - derailed your thread in any way.

 

[MJD]

Okay, vendetta was too strong a word. Though you do seem to have some kind of personal beef with Avenger Enterprises. Or at least, you're coming over that way.

Point is, you still haven't told me why you think my work 'sucks'. In fact I think I just read a statement that it's a stone best left unturned - which is at odds with the announcement of enworld reviews.

Truth is I'm a bit lost here. So far you've said my books suck but not why. I asked why and you began announcing an intention to post damning reviews on Enworld in a tone of (narrative) voice that suggests I damn well deserve a damn good negative reviewing and I should damn well know why, dammit! (and yes, that is meant to be read tongue-in-cheek).

Thing is, I don't know why. I also don't know what you think is wrong with my books, though I did ask.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by The Shaman:
Well, thank you for assuming that I can't write a fair review - once again I forgot that on the Internet, jumping to conclusions is a normal and expected part of dialog.

You've not shown any evidence whatsoever that you are capable of writing a "fair review" of 1248, and a lot of evidence to the contrary. "The internet" isn't the problem here, it's you.

A couple of contributor credits, and suddenly you're Gary Gygax! Brilliant!

Again, you're very quick to be dismissive of those who disagree with you. I've written JTAS articles, assisted on GT: Sword Worlds and more to the point co-authored an RPG supplement. Which is a damn sight more than you've ever done.

I don't give a rats arse whether you think that's enough to be worth listening to, the fact is I have had some experience in this field and evidently do know more about the subject than you do.

You? You got store credit from SJG for your fanzine articles!

Piss off. I got paid for that work, I just chose to take payment as store credit. I did get paid actual money for the work I did on the Transhuman Space book though.

You on the other hand have done NOTHING worthwhile at all, and from what you've said you evidently know little about the RPG market to start with. You're just another shrill, ignorant little know-it-all who thinks his own limited experiences must apply everywhere else.

So it's pathetic and risible that you'd sneer at my credentials when you've got sweet FA to show for your own.

This stopped being fun a page or two ago, and since you apparently lack the self-control to stop your hateful rantings like you said you would, I'll do us both a favor and bow out.

Takes two to tango, bub. You evidently lacked the self-control to walk away when you realised it wasn't fun to insult authors and denigrate anything that doesn't fit into your tiny worldview. So spare me the hypocritical lectures, and make sure you don't come back this time.

 

[MJD]

I have played Traveller for 24 years or so, and still play. I was personally recommended to QLI by Marc Miller. Dave Nilsen told me on the phone one time that my vision of the RC was closer to 'his' Reformation Coalition than anything else he'd seen.

But here's a thing.

I have written (ie published, words on paper) over 26 books, if you count the longer games ones but not mere 48-page odd jobs, the book-length £600-a-copy strategic defense reports, etc. If not then it's nearer 16. At this very moment I have 2 book contracts ongoing, two more that will probably happen, and a couple of odd jobs - and that's not counting my sideline in the games industry.

If I had any sense at all I'd just work at my real-world writing career. But I like games. I like Traveller.

I can name at least one person who seems to actively hate me simply because while he was developing his version of TNE, I worked for a decade to get mine approved and published. It differed from his; he was upset enough to commit a federal offence (threats to kill by email). Someone else threatened to kill me for working on GURPS Traveller.

I'd like to make some profound comment on this, but right now the meaning just escapes me.

 

[Jamus]

Originally posted by RogerCalver:
You have already told people that you think they suck so any reviews that you do are going to be biased anyway.
But then again each to their own I suppose, IMO the 1248 book's are a breath of fresh air for Traveller and Martin work handles the situation very well.

Point 1. all reviews are biased. a review is one persons opinion on a product and nothing more.

point 2. the usage of breath of fresh air is over used and damnably annoying. It is next to impossible to have a discussion on a newer game system and not read that phrase used.
ex. Eberon is a breath of fresh air! Bollocks to that. It is almost like the catch phrase is handed out to the masses for use.

Nothing is new or fresh so lets stop useing corp speak when we discuss our passion for games.

point 3. CT is the best Traveller system. introducing newer settings is well and good but at least in my opinion none have captured the imagination as greatly as had the bare bones CT 3rd Imperium.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by MJD:
I'd like to make some profound comment on this, but right now the meaning just escapes me. [/QB]

I think you'll find that the meaning is that there is overlap between "being a fan" and "being an obsessive nutbag that need to be locked up"... .

Hell, at least two people have stalked me on this very board, and I'm just another contributor.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Jamus:
*snip*[/QB]

Oh look, another bunch of completely subjective opinions touted as fact. Thanks for such a useful contribution!

 

[MJD]

Great. Now we have people stating opinion as fact.

Okay, so somebody thinks my work sucks and doesn't want to tell me why. Fine, we're all entitled to opinions. I object to people stating opinion as fact, and people who state opinion but don't want to tell me why they hold that opinion. But that's just my opinion....

I was a little hurt at the SUCKS comment, especially as it was unacompanied by reasons, and I genuinely wanted to find out WHY this was, and to maybe learn something into the bargain.

Well obviously that isn't going to happen.

People pay me good money for words; I'm not getting paid for these ones and it's not serving any useful purpose to type more of them.

So I think I'll go do something more useful instead.

 

[sinbadsam]

One Week

One Week