Savage wrote:
"Actually Larsen, I was referring to Thierry's comments about ancient globes with my 3:52 message."
Mr. Savage,
Oops, mea culpa.
"Sorry, for the ego blow but I didn't even read your 3:47 note."
Please don't waste any time worrying about my ego. I never do!
"First things first, I never called the A1 version is perfect. I'm certain a traveller design contest would come up with a better 1200/1250t multi-role design given similar criteria; ..." (snip of criteria)
The A:1 design is poor and, as you point out, cannot and should not be viewed in hindsight. Kinunir was 'built' before HG2. Trying to understand it in HG2 terms in futile. Sadly, HG2 is our only large look at the Imperial Navy; especially given the status of MT's 'Fighting Ships' publication. We've been trying to come up with a plausible, in-game reason for the Kinunirs' oddities. You've suggested one, I've suggested another, and, depending on various personal criteria, one or the other or neither may fit other peoples' TUs.
"Secondly, you may call it a floaty toy instead of a cruiser for all I care. Several vessels in CT are mis-categorized."
True. We know the meta-game reason for this; they were created prior to HG2. What is your in-game reason for it though?
"Third, Older vessels make fine test beds for the effectiveness of new functionality and research. If your only testing a particular line of vessels then the others will suffer greatly."
Sorry, I don't buy that. In the real world, you don't 'test' or 'research' particular lines, or classes, of vessels. You test or research particular equipment and then see if that equipment can improve various vessels. Improvements come more from without than from within.
Look at the 688s. The 'Los Angeles', despite being the lead vessel, may as well be a completely different submarine than the later hulls like 'Topeka' or 'San Juan'. However, they didn't build 'Los Angeles' simply to 'test' or 'research' the 688 class of SSNs and improve on the follow-up hulls. She was built to be a working vessel in her own right. The submarines that followed her were improved upon primarily through advances in various technologies that were then made to work within the 688 hull. 'Topeka' and 'San Juan' carry better and different weapons, better sensors, better computers, and so forth not because 'Los Angeles' exhibited flaws that needed correction but because advances in technology made certain equipment available. Yes, there were lessons learned from 'Los Angeles' that were incorporated into later hulls, but those changes are just a tiny portion of the sum total of upgrades.
Kinunir cannot be nothing but a lashed up guinea pig of a combatant smoke tested in order that her failures can make the follow-on vessels better. She needs to be a working vessel in her own right and her job, a described in A:1, is ludicrous. Her actual job must be something else.
"IMTU: Most colonial cruisers served an ISS, system patrol squadron or liason role of some sort. They're designated lead for a number of scouts, gazelle or missile corvettes assigned to them."
That's a very suitable role for them. Kinunir's marine contingent would give those vessels an option they normally lack.
"I operate MTU at two levels capital ship squadrons and small mission squadrons."
IMTU, I use task forces. Each is put together from the assets a fleet has at hand. Squadrons are primarily administrative groupings that focus on the specialized training and supply needs of each broad combatant classification. YMMV.
"I'd say the later is the norm they fit into. Capital ships are expensive to operate and in a shattered imperium too precious to risk without due cause."
True. Capital ships are capital intensive, both in terms of manufacture and supply. The various factions of the Shattered Imperium may find them constrained in their operation.
"Of my Kinunir class almost all have been modified, upgrades or changed in some fashion to better handle an assigned role. Very rarely do they need to operate alone."
Given the economic constraints the Shattered Imperium's factions face, wouldn't a vessel with relatively limited combat capabilities that very rarely operates alone be a bit of a burden? Your Kinunirs only deploy as part of a squadron. That rather limits their operational flexibility, doesn't it?
"But I've upgraded many other vessels too because that's how my navies solve their problems."
Surely that's how all navies solve their problems.
"Suggestions: If you don't like the 10% flicker replace it with armour...or eat up precious cargo for a few extra capacitors and a larger BG or better damper."
Therein lays the rub. When Kuninir was designed for A:1, there was no other type of BG - they arrived with HG2. If we want to avoid looking at Kinunir through HG2 hindsight, as you suggested, we've got to make her work 'as is'. I've suggested that she is a multi-role vessel specifically built to operationally test and take advantage of a piece of bleeding edge Imperial technology. You've suggested she was originally a mistake and has been continually upgraded into some form of utility. Who knows? Folks will choose the answer that best suits their campaign.
"Questions: 1. Does everyone in your campaign get all of the nukes they want? In my shattered Imperium they're looked at with more distaste than ever and considered a "last resort" weapon. Unless we're discussing suicide strain virus..."
Nucs are available to navies and not to the general public. 'Distaste' with their use is limited to their use in biospheres. They're just too useful in space. You list HG2 as a favorite supplement in your profile. Look at the damage tables, do you want to suffer that +6 DM on the damage rolls all the time?
With regards to suicide strain Virus, is Virus using the nucs or are Virus' opponents using the nucs? I'm assuming the former as it would pretty odd to have a section of your missile magazine labeled 'Only For Use In Case Of Virus'.
"2. Does your Imperium upgrade vessels or start from scratch after each first generation?"
Upgrade naturally, but they also cut their losses. If a class is a dog, or technology passes it by, or fails to meet requirements, or the tactical idea or role it was meant to fill was wrong, why keep producing it? New vessel classes (hopefully) build on the lessons learned from previous classes too.
"3. On a constructive note, if we're making the Kinunir class most effective, what is the best system upgrade?"
Armor for starters, then a better damper. Dump the big boat to get some dTons to work with. Max out the turret loads too and add sandcasters if the EPs start creeping up. Drop the gees in order to get some agility. The BG is a puzzle. As I previously posted, a 10% flicker rate really doesn't confer any advantage in combat (that is one reason why I went looking for a non or semi combat role for the vessel). Either dump the globe or add capacitors; 900 EPs can arrive in a hurry and the Kinunir can't shed them that quickly either.
"The bottom line: The Kinunir is a ship that was built in the imperium IMTU and I don't believe the navy would willingly waste resources without working to improve the product first."
Ever read any naval history? Especially that of the pre-dreadnaught era? Let's start with USS Vesuvius, a 'dynamite gun cruiser' that lobbed 15-inch shells filled with dynamite pneumatically. She actually deployed off Cuba during the Span-Am War. A complete lemon, nothing to improve there, after ripping out her 3-gun battery she was still too slow to work as a message sloop. How about USS Katahdin? A semi-submersible steam ram of the same vintage built with the 'lessons' of the 1866 Battle of Lissa firmly in mind. Torpedo-shaped with minimal and sacrificial upper works, she was designed to ram vessels attacking harbors. It was even claimed she'd pass right through their hulls! Ramming looked good on paper and on the sand table, but proved nearly impossible in practice though. A 'good' idea proven wrong during actual testing and a vessel built that had no other use.
Next, peruse the French fleet of the period. Every ship there was an experiment, they even had trouble finding vessels whose steaming speeds were close enough to allow them to work as a squadron. They also eschewed large guns for dozens of quick firers, the 'storm of shells' idea that the Japanese proved so very wrong at Tsushima. Google the circular Russian river ironclads next. Lovely vessels, plenty to 'improve' on there, couldn't even steam in a brisk current and they built a half dozen or so before giving up. Take a look at Britain's WW1 steam driven 'fleet' submarines next. Built on the assumption that Kaiser Bill had U-boats that could keep up with the High Seas Fleet, they sported actual boilers to make high surface speeds and killed most of their crews quite handily. Testing that line of vessels proved nothing but the fact that men can't breathe water.
"We're not talking about Sgt York here."
Oh yes we are! Check out the USN's pre-WW2 subchaser idea. FDR loved them, too bad they didn't work worth a damn. Too small to carry enough depth charges, too small to handle bad weather, not enough speed in heavy seas, no endurance, we built dozens of the worthless things instead of the militarized USCG cutters Adm. King's design board suggested. They were eventually 'upgraded' and 'improved' after 'testing', upgraded and improved into anti-submarine net minders in various harbors that is.
"The Imperium had 20 units, more on order, and a significant manufacturing investment."
Bull. Twenty Kinunirs equals only 25,000 dTons and the Third Imperium has single cruisers that displace more than that alone. Building twenty Kinunirs was a drop in the Imperial construction tonnage ocean.
I'll stick with my original take on the Kinunir; The Imperium produced its first black globe that didn't need Ancient relic parts. A class of vessels, the Kinunirs, was designed to fit around the specific capabilities of the new globe, test the utility of it, and hopefully use it for an edge in combat. Unfortunately, the combat utility of these wholly Imperial manufactured globes proved to be very limited and the class of vessels was unable to fulfill their designed role. Construction of additional hulls was stopped and other roles were scrounged up for the vessels already built. Some were upgraded to meet new requirements, some were scrapped, some were given away, and some found a new life as the odd patroller, but all were a failure in their originally intended role.
Naturally, YMMV and that's what makes Traveller so much fun.
Sincerely,
Larsen
