Kinunir frontier cruisers
- Thread starter maitrejeanth
- Start date
I believe that this idea was introduced with MegaTraveller and not Classic Traveller, and therefore can't apply to A:1. </font>[/QUOTE]Since my approach to the Official Traveller Universe is to pretend that it is a true universe where history and causality works properly, I firmly believe that even T20 and GT material can apply to A:1. That is to say, if a statement in A:1 contradicts a statement in any other piece of canonical writing, then we have a canon conflict that should be resolved. Thus either the marines in the Luuru are atypical Imperial marines or they are not Imperial marines (or, I suppose, the Imperial Marine Corps changed its policy between 1105 and 1107).
Incidentally, the idea (that all Imperial marines have BD training) was introduced in an article by Loren Wiseman in one of the early issues of JTAS (#9 ?).
Hans
In CT Book 1, BD skill did not exist
IN CT Book 4 Mercenary, The only way to get BD skill was to roll a 6 for a skill on the marine or commando MOS table.
If all marines had BD skill, then it should have been awarded in Basic training along with the Gun Combat skill. As is with TL mods, only 1 in 3 marines could would have BD skill out of basic training as we find in A1 Kinunir.
IN CT Book 4 Mercenary, The only way to get BD skill was to roll a 6 for a skill on the marine or commando MOS table.
If all marines had BD skill, then it should have been awarded in Basic training along with the Gun Combat skill. As is with TL mods, only 1 in 3 marines could would have BD skill out of basic training as we find in A1 Kinunir.
What a strange thing to say
Book 4 is very generic. It supposedly applies to every human military in Charted Space -- Ah, make that every human military in every Traveller Universe, not just the OTU. Obviously this is a much simplified view of marines.
In general I find that a too rigid interpretation of character generation rules will lead to some very strange views of the composition of society and individual organizations.
And so it is in GT (and IIRC this is an option under T20, but I may be misremembering).
Hans
Other way around, actually. Examining a system that subdivides the part of society that constitute the lower and middle classes into no fewer than 10 different categories, yet lumps the entire upper class into two or perhaps three categories and then subdivides the 'hyper' class (the over and above planetary level class) into another four or five categories, and concluding that this system is extremely distorted.
It couldn't? That's news to me.
You didn't miss much. Basically I just said that it happened.
You seem to be referring to some canonical event that I don't know about. But let me ask you this: If someone told you that the odds that a 16th Century ship could circumnavigate the globe were very low while the odds that a 20th Century passenger ship would successfully avoid being sunk on its maiden voyage were very high, would you also ridicule the notion that Magellan did circumnavigate the globe on the basis that the Titanic did sink and if that happened, what chance did Magellan have? The whole story is ludicrous, no?
You know, that is exactly the reason why I dislike the large number of pre-3rd Imperium colonies from the Solomani Rim that Behind the Claw places in the Marches. Because the journey between the two places is very difficult, and it is a bit of a stretch that even two made it.
But of course, we can't very well avoid those two, can we? The basic improbability is that the Sword Worlders and the Itzin fleet before them made the trip at all.
At what time? Year 1104 of the 3rd Imperium in the OTU? Are you telling me that battledress was invented in 1104?
Because if you are just pointing out that battledress wasn't mentioned in the Book 1 that was published in the Real Universe in -- 1979, was it? -- then you are either missing or deliberately ignoring my point. BTW, battledress did exist in A:1. Obviously.
Incontestably true, but also completely and utterly irrelevant.
True, and if it wasn't possible to come up with an in-game reason why two thirds of the Luuru's marines didn't have battledress skill, then that would be the way to go. But since it is possible, there's no need to.
Yup, and since I far and away prefer to ignore meta-reasons if at all possible and go with in-game reasons, that's exactly what I did.
What do you mean it has no previous mention in published material? It shows up as early as 1979 in High Guard, if only by implication. HG introduces subsector navies. Is it really so far a stretch to provide Regina with one and from there to provide the Regina subsector navy with a marine corps? I certainly do not think so. Do you?
BTW, just why do you assume that I invented the Duchy of Regina Marine Corps for the sole purpose of explaining away one tiny discrepancy in The Kinunir? I find that a very peculiar assumption. FYI, I came up with the DORMC first and then noted that this provided a possible explanation for the Luuru's marines.
And if you ask me, the notion that some of those Kinunirs belong to subsector navies fits pretty well with the duties we see them performing, which is poking around in out of the way parts of the Duchy of Regina.
Hans
Singular incompetence on the part of the 3I? Plenty of canonical examples of successful long-range colonization efforts: the islands cluster and the Zhodani Core Route are particularly notable.
Also, if you look at the timeline, the swordies spent on the order of a decade preparing for their mission. They weren't quite the irregular refugees they seem.
Gentlemen,
I've deleted the offending post and am asking that that portion of this otherwise interesting thread be dropped.
I really don't care explain the several reasons behind the post or waste any time in responding to the comments it generated. It would be a waste of bandwidth, would accomplish nothing, and would detract from the actual thread at hand.
My apologies to all.
Sincerely,
Larsen
I've deleted the offending post and am asking that that portion of this otherwise interesting thread be dropped.
I really don't care explain the several reasons behind the post or waste any time in responding to the comments it generated. It would be a waste of bandwidth, would accomplish nothing, and would detract from the actual thread at hand.
My apologies to all.
Sincerely,
Larsen
Anthony,
Good point about the Kinunir in TNE. Yet there is re-design occuring.
---
About this Marine issue on the Luuru. Not really big.
1. For some its a different marine branch,
2. for others another wild experiment on the Kinunirs
3. Some might consider it rushing to build up after the 5th Frontier War. "get those guys on the boat. I don't care if their trained".
4. For me there all dead and gone (MTU is 1212) and it matters less. Yet the Luuru remains as a floating hulk to toy with...
Isn't the facination with A1 amazing.
Savage
Good point about the Kinunir in TNE. Yet there is re-design occuring.
---
About this Marine issue on the Luuru. Not really big.
1. For some its a different marine branch,
2. for others another wild experiment on the Kinunirs
3. Some might consider it rushing to build up after the 5th Frontier War. "get those guys on the boat. I don't care if their trained".
4. For me there all dead and gone (MTU is 1212) and it matters less. Yet the Luuru remains as a floating hulk to toy with...
Isn't the facination with A1 amazing.
Savage
A1 set the standard because it was the first printed adventure.
It was where they made mistakes and and it predated most canon information. You might think of it as analagous to Lief Ericsons trip to vinland before Columbus did his little trip. The information and adventure is valid and interesting because it is different. The deckplans are also great for character interaction.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually it only carries a Platoon of Marines. (Then again so did the Rodger Young.) A Platoon, or even a Company is traditionally too small for independent operation or deployment. They don't carry the support required for sustained operation. Usually the smallest unit for sustained operation is a reinforced Batalion. (That is drop dead minimum normally nothing smaller than a Brigade is deployed for independent operation.) The exception being SOF forces. (IE Marine Force Recon, Army Green Berets, Navy Seals, British SAS, Russian Spetnatz, etc.) US Army Rangers rarely deploy less than a Company. The Kinunir was produced in very limited numbers. Which leads to my conclusion that they aren't just for deploying normal Marines but SOF troops. The Black Globe makes sense for covert insertion.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
About Marines and Battledress. Battle Dress is mentioned in Book 1. (Read the description of hte Vacc Suit Skill.) In Book 4 the Battledress skill description states that the Vacc Suit skill can be used for the wear of Battledress. It states that the Battledress skill is specifically for the use of specialized weapon systems that go with battledress. (specifically the PGMP13 and FGMP14.) You don't need the Battledress skill to use Battledress, just use it with the weapon systems designed to be used in conjunction with Battledress. therefore virtually all citizens of the Imperium that don't stay home can wear and use Battledress. So Battledress can easily still be the standard Marine Armor. You just won't be equipping all your Marines with FGMP-14s. Of course why would you want everyone carrying that weapon. The Standard Marine Weapon, IMTU, is the Gauss Rifle. The FGMP/PGMP is a Support weapon like today's Light Machine Gun. (In the US Army the Squad Automatic Weapon.) With this in mind the skills and spread of skills in Book-4 make more sense. A fire team is equipped with Battledress, a Team Leader with a Gauss Rifle, 2 Riflemen and a Fusion Gunner. (IMTU they also tend to be equipped with Grav Belts.) 2-3 fire teams per squad, 3-4 squads per platoon, 3-4 platoons per company, All depending on Transport configuration.
In the US Army a Platoon will have 4 squads as above and a Machinegun squad. (Translating to a squad wholly equipped with FGMP-14s?)
Just a thought.
In the US Army a Platoon will have 4 squads as above and a Machinegun squad. (Translating to a squad wholly equipped with FGMP-14s?)
Just a thought.
What a strange thing to say
</font>[/QUOTE]Not in my copies of CT: Battledress used Vacc Suit under base rules. And was in my Deluxe Traveller set as well as my Traveller Book.
Battle Dress skill was added in Bk 4.
Ahem, Hans, RULES canon (as opposed to Text Canon) was NEVER updated in ANY official ruleset to reflect an "All imperial Marines are BD trained" mentality. It was a throwaway reference in a magazine article.
One that was IGNORED in the making of MT. Irrellevant in TNE. And Not reflected in T4, aka Marc Miller's Traveller.
at any point, MWM could have cured the whole issue by adding one line to the CG rules: "All Imperial Marines recieve Battle Dress 0." MARC DID NOT DO THIS!
That LOREN chose to make GT his personal view (and it is by license a "Non-authoritative source", and hence, non-canon except for GT) of the third imperium. Being non-authoritative gave Loren massive room to tweak the setting.
Book 4 is very generic. It supposedly applies to every human military in Charted Space -- Ah, make that every human military in every Traveller Universe, not just the OTU. Obviously this is a much simplified view of marines.
In general I find that a too rigid interpretation of character generation rules will lead to some very strange views of the composition of society and individual organizations.
And so it is in GT (and IIRC this is an option under T20, but I may be misremembering).
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]During playtest, the discussion was had. It was resolved by the playtesters that:
a) Rules canon had to be reflected to some degree.
b) "All IM's are BD troopies" would invalidate MANY extant campaigns and some published products, as well as CT and MT rules canon.
c) support in rules material for the "All are BDTs" was needed for GT compatability, and to support another large chunk of extant campaigns.
d) that providing the option to support it was better than the option of not supporting it.
e) that, for the sake of maximum saleability, supporting one or the other only was not good.
Hunter gave in, or was convinced, or something.
That the rules for IM's in the last draft I saw made it pretty easy to go from Not All to All, fine. but it's not a mandate.
Hans, you've usually argued for text to the absolute exclusion of rules.
I've always argued for both, in ballance. The Rules pre-GT NEVER made it mandatory for BD skill to be posessed by marines.
Now, since T20 is non-authoritative rules-wise, neither it nor GT can be used to resolve the issue for rules canon; since all other editions are clearly NOT "All are BDT's" due to lack of even level 0, it appears that Marc specifically refuted Loren's article by NOT incluuding its effects into rules canon.
The one other reference I can find supportingh loren's is in the setting text of Striker II (TNE), and it puts the Huscarles from Regina in TL 14 Battledress, too. Regina, at the reference time, is NOT TL 14, but TL 13! In fact, Striker II boilerplates all imperial forces to have been TL14 LBD, and TL15 HBD troops.
Marc's name isn't mentioned in the credits of Striker II.
TD15 provides duty and combat uniforms other than the BD suit for the marines occupying terra. It adds Drop Ops, but NOT BD skill, to CGen for Imperial Marines.
And funny enough, most of the "All BDT" crowd decried Space: Above and Beyond for doing JUST THAT THING!
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You lost me there and my memory of that most excellent show is foggy. I can't seem to recall a cite in it that all the Marines were BD trained. So do you mean that the ALL BDT crowd was down on the show for not using the ALL BDT model? Or am I forgetting something from the show that did say they used the ALL BDT model and the ALL BDT crowd did an about face and thought that was stupid? Or perhaps I'm just totally clueless as to what you meant. Can you clear it up for me? Thanks.Hello Folks,
Responding to Aramis' last response...
One thing to consider when you discuss what Marc Miller might have done or not done regards to later issues of Traveller - it was my impression that Marc may have had the final say in what was put into the books, but that he didn't exactly author those later editions. That was my impression, I might be wrong
Secondly: the huscarles of Norris being equipt with TL 14 gizmos rather than their native world TL 13 equipment can be explained away one of two ways...
1) cutting edge technology exists such that military hardware *can* be one tech level higher when a world is at the divide between current tech levels and soon to be achieved tech levels or...
2) Purchase equipment from other worlds, hire military advisors to train your troops, and take it from there.
Responding to Aramis' last response...
One thing to consider when you discuss what Marc Miller might have done or not done regards to later issues of Traveller - it was my impression that Marc may have had the final say in what was put into the books, but that he didn't exactly author those later editions. That was my impression, I might be wrong
Secondly: the huscarles of Norris being equipt with TL 14 gizmos rather than their native world TL 13 equipment can be explained away one of two ways...
1) cutting edge technology exists such that military hardware *can* be one tech level higher when a world is at the divide between current tech levels and soon to be achieved tech levels or...
2) Purchase equipment from other worlds, hire military advisors to train your troops, and take it from there.
The point being that, in either case, they blanket painted ALL imperial forces as Infantry in HBD 15. All other troops not already in cans as being in LBD 14.
as to the S:AAB issue, it may not have been battle dress (it was at least combat armor-10), having aviators wearing battle armor and doing grunt work was decried by many of the "All IM are BDT" crowd, for having all the marines trained in and using Cbt Armor.
And, at 1/2 MCR or more per suit, Traveller's BD is a force to be reckoned with, but only when it can be afforded.
Yeah, I'll admit, IMTU: BDT's are like naval aviators today. Expensive to train, glory hounding, and expensive to equip, but very effective at what they do, and held in awe by small children and their military coworkers.
As fot MT< we KNOW MWM had little to do with it... and even less say. TNE was FC & LKW. T4 lists MWM as the Game Design, and Les Smith for additional development.
MWM had the opportunity with T4. The3 debate was ragng at the time MWM was writing the game engine for T4. He had the opportunity to affirm IM's are all BDT's, and didn't.
He could have overridden the T20 playtest and mandated that bit to Hunter. He didn't.
True. And it would have been much better if it had been, no argument there. However, I am of the opinion that there is a certain hierachy when it comes to canonical evidence. For one thing, I think that specific information beats generic information. What you call a throwaway reference in a magazine article others call an athorative statement. (BTW, I argued against giving all IMs BD training during the Ground Forces playtest (apparently Doug Berry still have nightmares about me
). But now that it has been affirmed in GF, I feel obliged to suport it.)Ignore? Or overlooked?
I don't regard GT as non-authoritative. GT portrays the very same universe[*] that CT, MT, TNE, T4, and T20 portrays; it just uses a different toolset to portray it.
[*] OK, the GTU is an alternate universe, but it is supposedely identical to the OTU up until some time prior to 132-1116, so for the purposes of this discussion (and many like it), it is the same universe.
Well, what I've tried to argue is that either the one or the other works fine, but they can't both be true in the same universe!
Given that, I want the discrepancy resolved. It doesn't matter nearly as much to me whether it be resolved by allowing some Imperial Marines to not have battledress or by adding BD skill to character generation for Imperial Marines, as it matters to get it resolved, period. Before GF reinforced the evidence for giving all Imperial Marines BD skill, I actually argued for the former solution. But now I've come to the conclusion that if you give all regular Imperial Marines BD skill and allow the colonial Imperial Marines to differ from duchy to duchy, you can arrive at a fairly neat compromise.
No. But as I pointed out, the rules are generic, the article and the description in GF are specific. IMO specific trumphs generic.
I'm pretty sure that If Marc had specifically refuted Loren's view, Loren would have instructed Doug Berry to drop the idea. Marc has either signed off on the idea or (more likely) has not taken the time to resolve it.
And if Marc should nix the idea, then that's fine by me too (as long as GF was errata'ed to reflect it). As I said, either version works for me, but they can't both be true in the same universe.
(And I do think it makes perfect sense for some of the Kinunrs to belong to subsector navies.
)Hans