Kinunir frontier cruisers

[aramis]

The kinunir is a good warship design, for a book 2 design with bk5 weaponry...

knowing the issues of canonicity, the kinunir in Supp 9 I regaurd as a canon ship design, even if misnamed.

Think of the intel value when some swordie reads "1 batron Tigress, 24 CruRons Kinunirs, 4 CruRons AHLs....", even if those 24 are smaller in displacement than a single cruron of AHLS...

Then again, in early prints of book 2, Type T 400 tonners were also "Cruisers", as were the 800 ton merc cruisers.

Wholly different scale. Which led to a starfire conversion guide by a friend, who used a rough guide of 10 Td per space... but that's a whole 'nother issue.

The role of the marines aboard, being that the whole of Adv 1 predates the formalization of the 3I setting, is a small ship setting, heavy on the merchants.

And, if we use the limits on hull size by computer model (bk5), for the TL it was designed for, it may have been a cruiser! (If we assume a cruiser to be more than 40% and less than 75% of maximum size by TL, with a good jump and a full weapons suite.

(Now, where did I misplace that box with Bk0-8, Adv 5, & AHL...)

Now, since most players I knew misinterpreted Bk5's computer table to be the rate of tonnage per computer, and used big-ship navies at lower Tl's, I've not played in a small ship universe that wasn't using Starfire as a combat system...

Perhaps, for the Kinunir, we merely need to rl the clock back to the third imperium having been a lower TL.

 

[Vargas]

Originally posted by Aramis:
The kinunir is a good warship design, for a book 2 design with bk5 weaponry...

Having just reread Kinuinir yesterday, I'm left wondering how to play the ship's Book 5 weapons when all you have is Book2. Any ideas?

 

[Tobias]

First of all: The Kinunir is a 100% Book 5 design.
Integrating a small Book 5 design like this one with Book 2 combat thus is the task. I will try to answer as good as I can, without having either Book 2 or Book 5 at hand....

1.) Particle Accelerators. I would say, use in the same manner as Lasers, and let them do one normal hit and one radiation hit using the tables for the Special Supplement: Missiles.
2.) Energy Weapons. Use as Lasers, limit the Range to say 5 bands or so, and half the effect sandcasters have on them. Fusion guns could do 2 hits in the same manner as pulse lasers.
3.) Armor. In the same manner as the CT personal combat combined roll, you could just deduct it from the to-hit roll. Note that I generally scale down the armor for size 1-A vessels to 1/2, for HG, and use this scale as the base for the above solution.
4.) System damage. Damage to powerplants and drives should probably be best handled the HG way, i.e. each hit reduces performance. This will shorten battles, but is IMHO preferable to retro-calculating the Drive letters for large ships.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[mike wightman]

Having just reread Kinuinir yesterday, I'm left wondering how to play the ship's Book 5 weapons when all you have is Book2. Any ideas?

In the original Gazelle, written up in JTAS 4, the PA barbettes are "treated as heavy lasers as in Book2, subject to an advantageous DM of +2 to hit. Damage ... should be skewed toward crew casualties, and electronic and computer damage if there is no fibre optic back-up"
Helpful or what

We always treated them as having +2 to hit and causing three hits. Once the missiles special supplement came out then we changed to +2 to hit, 2 normal hits and 1 radiation hit.
Armour was treated as follows:
for each weapon that scores a hit roll greater than the armour factor on 2 dice to penetrate with a + DM equal to the number of hits the weapon causes e.g. a beam laser would get +1 to penetrate, a pulse laser +2, a PA +3.
Another house rule was that a penetrating hit could be used to reduce the AF by 1 instead of rolling on the hits table, the choice is up to the defender.

 

[mike wightman]

First of all: The Kinunir is a 100% Book 5 design.

I don't think it is. High Guard 1 was published in 1979, the Kinunir was published in 1979. While it obviously borrows some ideas, the Book 5 version of the Kinunir, as presented in the back of High Guard 2(published 1980), is 50 t heavier and suddenly has a nuclear damper.

 

[Whipsnade]

Tobias wrote:

"First of all: The Kinunir is a 100% Book 5 design."


Sir,

I'm very sorry, but it is most definitely not. A:1 predates nearly every other Traveller product, excepting the first Three Little Black Books. The Kinunir is a pre-HG2 design.

You're confused because the Kinunir design from A:1 has been 'ported into several, later Traveller products. Kinunir makes an appearence as an USP towards the end of HG2 but that is merely the LBB:5 description of the LBB:2 design. IN S:9, you'll also find the Kinunir presented in this LBB:2 design/LBB:5 USP description mode.

Kinunir appears later in a few MT and TNE products. Once again, the design is LBB:2 but the description is created using whatever ship description system was current. In a few cases, most notably TNE, the LBB:2 Kinunir design was updated to make the vessel less of a dog but in most Kinunir was imported whole from A:1 bringing all its quirks and oddities with it.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[RandyT0001]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:


"I'm very sorry, but it is most definitely not. A:1 predates nearly every other Traveller product, excepting the first Three Little Black Books. The Kinunir is a pre-HG2 design."

IIRC, Supplement 1, 1001 Characters, and Book 4, Mercenary, also predate Adventure 1, Kinunir. HG, both V1 and V2, was published after it. At the time I considered it more of a light cruiser at 1000 dtons than a (IMTU) battlecruiser of 3-4000 dtons.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Randy Tyler:

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:


"I'm very sorry, but it is most definitely not. A:1 predates nearly every other Traveller product, excepting the first Three Little Black Books. The Kinunir is a pre-HG2 design."

IIRC, Supplement 1, 1001 Characters, and Book 4, Mercenary, also predate Adventure 1, Kinunir. HG, both V1 and V2, was published after it. At the time I considered it more of a light cruiser at 1000 dtons than a (IMTU) battlecruiser of 3-4000 dtons.

Kinunir was published separately by GW (UK) under license, then later repackaged as ADV 1 according to several sources . (Sources which usually are arguing against its canonicity.)

 

[Vargas]

Kinunir was published separately by GW (UK) under license, then later repackaged as ADV 1 according to several sources . (Sources which usually are arguing against its canonicity.)

That's the first ever I heard of that. I have some doubts however as the two GW developed products I'm aware of are A: 4 Leviathan and IISS Ship Recognition Files which both came out in 1981 (I believe) and so are seperated in time from A:1.

Can you name the sources?

 

[Vargas]

By the way, thanks all for the tips on how to referee the Kinunir's weapon loadout.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Vargas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Kinunir was published separately by GW (UK) under license, then later repackaged as ADV 1 according to several sources . (Sources which usually are arguing against its canonicity.)

That's the first ever I heard of that. I have some doubts however as the two GW developed products I'm aware of are A: 4 Leviathan and IISS Ship Recognition Files which both came out in 1981 (I believe) and so are seperated in time from A:1.

Can you name the sources? </font>[/QUOTE]Aside from R Sanger? >GD&R<

Not without checking on a disk I can't read... it was pre-GDB-Breakup (paranoia or A4 confusion, take your pick).

I never said RELIABLE sources!

In any case, HG is 79. A1 is 79. Since the design is HG-ish, it probably was done with playtest HG info.

The data included, aside from the PAWS tip turrets, is not terribly useful for reverse engineering the design. It does, however, match up to an interesting list in Mayday (1978):

scout 100ton ...
courier 100 ton...
Escort 100 ton...
Free Trader 200 ton...
Yacht 200 ton...
Transport 400 ton...
Armed Transport 400 ton...
Destroyer 400 ton starship, 2g, Model 2/bis2 lasers, 1 missile launceer, 1 ship's boat. Programs T, L, G, P1, P3, P4, S1, M1, AE, RF, J1, J2, N.
Colonial Cruiser 800 ton starship, 2g, model 3, 4 lasers, 1 missile launcher, 2 fighters, 1 lifeboat. Programs L, T, G, P1, P2, M1, AE, RF, AM, M, J1, J2, N
Corsair, 400 ton...

Small ship universe prior to Bk5. Note also that mayday was a variant off of bk 2, had missile building rules, and some wicked smooth movement mechanics. The Kinunir has the right size for a BC under this scheme.

Judging from some other issues, probably an EARLY playtest.

Problems compounded by GDW failing to list release dates for later printings which had changes on the copyright page.

 

[Vargas]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Aside from R Sanger? >GD&R<

Not without checking on a disk I can't read... it was pre-GDB-Breakup (paranoia or A4 confusion, take your pick).

I never said RELIABLE sources!

No problem! Since A1 lacks a credits page, I'd be interested to learn who
did write it.

 

[Theophilus]

After sitting down and reading through all seven pages of posts concerning the Kinunir, I see that nothing has changed in twenty two years. No one knows exactly what the Kinunir is for.

One discussion, during the TNE era, had the Kinunir as a tool of imperial oppression. The point was that the Particle accel barbette with a factor of one was too weak for space combat, but was excellent for use against planets, moons, asteroids, etc. without atmosphere. Adding drop capsules and BD equipped marines only make the Kinunir more fearful.

Kids, you'd better play nice or the Kinunir will get you.

 

[eiladayn]

At last! Theophilus has hit the nail on the helmet! The Kinunir class ships were merely a tool of Imperial aggression against the innocent
Solomani citizenry. Such a ship gave the Empire no recognizable military advantage, it existed merely to terrorize innocent women and children of Solomani heritage. It flew with no more purpose than to attack the homes of poor down-trodden second-class citizens!

signed.
A Patriot

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
At last! Theophilus has hit the nail on the helmet! The Kinunir class ships were merely a tool of Imperial aggression against the innocent
Solomani citizenry. Such a ship gave the Empire no recognizable military advantage, it existed merely to terrorize innocent women and children of Solomani heritage. It flew with no more purpose than to attack the homes of poor down-trodden second-class citizens!

signed.
A Patriot

Arguably, Assuming limited HG playtest materials, and prior (pre HG) canon about the sizes of cruisers, the Kinunir was an early-playtest-draft HG design using the "Small ship model" in force pre-HG, as evidenced by Mayday, Bk2, and the ship classes therein. If a cruiser is 800 Td (Mer Cruiser, assume it to be a Lt Cruiser), and the Patrol Craft is actually a destroyer (400 Td), then a 1200 Td fleet cruiser/battle cruiser makes a LOT of sense.

Since Bk 2 only provides for ships to 5000 Td, I assumed (until I got HG) that BatRons were in the 3000Td range per ship.... as I had library data before Bk 5... (Local supply issues, ya know?)

Traveller really has two, incompatable, sets of ship scale assumptions: Small ship (100-5000 Td univers, Max J6 Tonnage is 1000Td) and Large Ship (100-1000000 Td, Max Jn by TL, max size by TL/Computer.)

Many of the earlier adventures are able to be either. But the Kinunir isn't. It belongs to a transitional period between the two, when HG was being written, but before it had come out. When P-Beams were know to be on the "Add it " list, as well as black globes, but before the new fleet sizes had been determined.

 

[Theophilus]

And the fun(ny) thing is, After twenty years, we can still argue about it.

 

[mike wightman]

So here's another one to keep the fun going .

Consider Mr Whipsnade's arguement that the Kinunir was a test-bed for new technology.
Black Globe, experimental AI computer.

According to Survival Margin the new SDG transponder chip was in final Naval testing (ship based?) in 1086. Two years later they become a legal requirement. In this same year, 1088, the Kinunir goes missing

.

Perhaps it had been fitted with the prototype SDG test chip and combined with the experimental AI computer...

Must stop watching conspiracy theories on Discovery

 

[eiladayn]

Ummm-Hmmmm, a typical Imperial plot, we Solomani would NEVER have even conceived of such a plan!

Pappy

 

[savage]

And the fun(ny) thing is, After twenty years, we can still argue about it.

--Theophilus
I said something similar several pages ago. Finally someone agrees.

Must stop watching conspiracy theories on Discovery

-- Sigg Oddra

No. Consipracy theories are good. Keeps us on our toes looking for lost WWII Gold....and finding possible new traveller adventures.

Savage

 

[vegascat]

Wern't the Kinunir's all manufactured in the Spinward Marches? Why were they made so far from the Solomani homeground if they were meant for terror weapons against them? I believe they were terror weapons aimed at the Sword Worlders, Darrians, and Zhodani, not the Solomani.