K'Kree Starship Design questions...

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Sheer numbers? Most Herbivores have a single puplet, but there are a lot of them bazillions on them each? If they developed intelligence having to outwit preadtors, it stand to reason that they wold evolve different practices and psychologies...

I can sort of see your point about the ships, but I thnk they use very different tactics... I wouldnt go into a TCS fight with a Target shaped ship, but, then again, I am not a k'kree...

Mental conditioning could also serve in training effective crews... if you can train humans to go to space, you could train anything with a program that fits, and the right technology...

And as to the dengrating comments, I really don't understand the Hate... Sure, K'kree are snooty, but they are also Aliens! I thought they did a great job in conceptualizing the race, and made them different enough to conflict with the many other types of aliens and breeds of humans, most of which just may as well be humans... Its a SF game... there bloody well should be tons of crazy ass aliens running around... Humans, humans, and more humans, is Boring, boring, and more boring...

Its kind of ironic that you guys would make great K'Kree, you certainly seem intolerant enough...

Moo!

Can we stay on topic now?

 

[flykiller]

And as to the dengrating comments

what denigrating comments?

Can we stay on topic now?

'thought I was. there's more to starship design than engineering.

 

[marginaleye]

It's not that I (the player) hate the K'kree... In fact, I think they're among the most interesting aliens in the canonical Traveller universe. However (and this is an exceedingly large "however"), I also think that they're broken, at least as they're currently portrayed. (1) Cripplingly severe claustrophobia, combined with (2) an equally crippling fear of isolation, combined with (3a) deep reverence for traditional ways, (3b) an unhealthy dose of racial overconfidence, and (3c) visceral xenophobia, means that the K'kree have no business being a "great starfaring power". They should, at best, be a "failed Major Race," one that (1) discovered the jump drive independently, (2) ventured out into the universe, and (3) was quickly overwhelmed by another species better suited to space travel. K'kree starships are probably no better at hauling cargo as they are at bringing the big guns to bear -- if the competitive arena (whatever it is) involves building decent starships, they're going to lose.

Now, I would be happy to accept the K'kree as a "great starfaring power" if some good explanation was offered. Suppose, for example, the K'kree had a trustworthy slave race, genetically engineered to be utterly loyal and obedient, that was not claustrophobic, and provided over ninety percent of their naval personnel (all but a handful of top-ranking officers on the average ship -- the captain, department heads, and the like). Or suppose the instinctive panic responses of K'kree naval personnel were controlled with tiny brain-implants that monitored and adjusted their neurochemical balances as necessary. These are just the first ideas that came to mind.

Hate the K'kree? No, not really. (It's only a game!) But something about their role in the canonical Traveller universe doesn't add up, and that bothers me.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

They must have some form of "Juice" they control a pretty fair share of the map...maybe the "Starfaring Race" concept comes from a drive to conquer... the base Herbivore desire for more room? One thing is sure, a holobroadcast of the K'kree/Hiver War would be an interesting work to behold for sure!

 

[aramis]

The K'Kree motivation to go forth is one of "Making the Universe free of predators." A version of manifest destiny. They are not really so terribly xenophobic as carnivorophobic. If it eats meat, it smells like a carnivore. If it thinks and eats meat, it is a major threat. Hecne all conqered species of sophnt in the 2000 worlds are either herbivores, or omnivores on a meat-replacement supplement. Those that can't or won't stop eating meat are destroyed. They also don't seem to mind small predators that provide no real threat to the K'Kree themselves... otherwise there would be no ecology on K'rrurr.

 

[marginaleye]

Fine, fine...
I freely accept that they're eager and well-motivated -- but that doesn't change the fact that they just don't have the hardware to do the job. It's hard to render the universe free of predators when the predators have warships that can out-fight, outrun, and out-maneuver you (and, furthermore, the predators can also pack a lot more ground troops into their troop transports than you can).

 

[TheDS]

K'Kree use robotics. A LOT. Small, robotic fighter-class craft, without a living pilot, could do all kinds of nasty things without all that stuff devoted to keeping even a human alive. You can imagine that all their fighters can pull 20Gs (if we lift the restrictions from Traveller's drives of 6 paltry Gs), that they can stand to have bigger weapons in place of all that LS equipment that's not there, or whatever.

To put a human into a fighter (say 10 Dtons), you waste about a quarter of the space, for his workstation, for his LS itself, and you also have to have G-Compensation. You're probably going to be limited to 6Gs just by that. Take out all that space, and you've got room for bigger guns or more missiles or better armor. Kind of like taking the jump drive out of a ship to make a Battle Rider.

IIRC, K'Kree robotic missiles are supposed to be pretty well developed. Most people like using energy weapons, but they don't get very good fire rates in comparison to missiles. A salvo of 100 missiles need not take up a lot of space; you don't have to make them reloadable in battle; the ship isn't going to last that long anyway. Deluge the target with missiles, and he can't shoot them down fast enough. It only takes 1 nuke to kill a ship. (Well, not in MT rules.) We could debate the cost-effectiveness of this all day, so let's set this one aside instead of arging about it.

K'Kree DO use slave races. Mostly they depend on robotics, but where a robot would be too expensive to use, put a cheap slave in there to run it. Much K'Kree stuff is pretty disposable, and some robots are simply too expensive to put in, so that's where you see the slaves.

A K'Kree ship is generally not a front line unit. It is a carrier for hoards (or is that HERDS?) of small, powerful fighter craft, which are tough to hit and carry a big punch. Standard anti-fighter tactics don't work as well against hoards of targets, all of which are pretty hard to hit and hit pretty hard.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Perhaps it is a case with K'Kree drones being capable of HIgh G turns and maneuvers, but at a 6g velocity to fit the rules... perhaps there is some special racial ship design agility bonus on the smaller vehicles that reflect this?

I know that the HiMAT drone fighter program produced a variable configuration drone (with different types of switchable control surfaces)that could pull manuevers that would squish any pilot into Shepherd's Pie... so there is definitely a validity to this idea...

I am also curious as to what the weapon loadout of a typical K'Kree soldier is... what is their smallarm and longarm of choice? do they use slug throwers? Energy weapons? Some of the TAS stuff i read in the past hinted at a hoof fighting style that seems pretty deadly... I know that getting kicked by a horse is no fun, so I can assume that being stomped by a K'Kree squad would be even less so...

 

[marginaleye]

I am also curious as to what the weapon loadout of a typical K'Kree soldier is... what is their smallarm and longarm of choice? do they use slug throwers? Energy weapons? Some of the TAS stuff i read in the past hinted at a hoof fighting style that seems pretty deadly... I know that getting kicked by a horse is no fun, so I can assume that being stomped by a K'Kree squad would be even less so...

Uh...
This seems like a non-issue, at best. The natural advantages of K'kree in close combat are probably counter-balanced, at least, by other physical disadvantages. Shoulder to shoulder, with long bronze-pointed spears and big round hoplite-style shields, I bet the K'kree would a force to be reckoned with (combining the best features of infantry and horse cavalry), but on a high-tech battlefield? I don't think so. They're big targets, and they probably have trouble keeping their heads down. Their natural advantages in speed (at least on even terrain) and load-bearing capabilities are almost totally neutralized by the superior vehicular mobility of those slow-moving, relatively feeble, bipeds. The idea that hooves would have much of an impact is pretty silly, rather like the "chainswords" of the Warhammer: 40,000 universe.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

hmmm... so why a "Warrior" Caste, then?

As to the silly hooves, I've seen a man get kicked square in the sternum by a stallion, he failed to see the comedy in the situation...

The K'kree in the Gateway pdf, also have a potential strength of 24... which could put the hurt out good...

I was more interested in Personal Weaponry that they would use, as I doubt they go for the Centaur Phalanx much anymore... as to a high tech battlefeild, they would seem to have some form of vehicles and stuff, as they have a vehicle crew feat (for the insane ones) i'm sure they must be effective machines in some way, otherwise, why build them?

 

[jatay3]

A. The K'kree have no internal political difficulties.
B. The K'kree have a one track mind. They regard war as a more dangerous form of roach killing and imperialism is secondary. In fact the main reason they invade planets at all is probably to secure bases for the next extermination. Therefore they have no need for many of the things Humaniti, Aslan, and Vargr warriors devote a large part of their military resources and traditions toward. While this mindset has disadvantages (it doesn't "win friends" easily for one thing-though it sometimes "influences people")it has advantages in the early stages before their enemies get their measure.

C. They had early advantages in geography that allowed them to steamroll ahead before they made contact with others as powerful as they.

D. Fortunes of war: sometimes thats the best explanation

 

[dnacowboy]

K'ree definately have one thing going for them that humans rarely do. They all agree that carnivores are bad and must be put down. Also, given they're herd based nature, that don't care about individual losses as long as the herd survives.

And while their foot soldiers might make big targets, they can also carry as much hardward as a battle dress equipped human.

 

[TheBrain]

Originally posted by jatay3:
[QB] A. The K'kree have no internal political difficulties.

Not exactly K'kree are based on a fuedal hiearchy as long as its just one herd okay but the larger the force the more the political bickering.

 

[TheBrain]

Originally posted by dnacowboy:

And while their foot soldiers might make big targets, they can also carry as much hardward as a battle dress equipped human.


On the other hand K'kree don't care for heavy armor so while that centaur trooper carries alot of hardware he is a big soft target.

 

[marginaleye]

On the other hand K'kree don't care for heavy armor so while that centaur trooper carries alot of hardware he is a big soft target.

Hold on...
Am I reading this correctly?

Does this mean that K'kree don't like fully enclosing garments, either?
So wearing battle dress (and ordinary pressure suits!) is psychologically difficult for them, too?

What about the four-legged equivalent of a sealed atomic-biological-chemical suit? If they've even got trouble with wearing ABC suits, psycho-chemical warfare against them would be absurdly easy. Just synthesize a few gallons of "essence of panicked K'kree" and spray it, in mist form, across the battlefield. The K'kree are known for their genocidal tendencies, and I bet their enemies don't pull any punches on the battlefield, and are willing to do all sorts of really nasty things.

If you wanted to be really nasty about it, spray the battlefield with "essence of immature and/or female K'kree."

 

[shield]

yes, you are reading it correctly, the GURPS alien races book has it exactly. They have a KKREE APC (about the size of a zeppilin). The troopers are reversed into stalls, pumped full of prozac, with the air flooded with nice scents. Not the ideal mindset for troopers. they will be mad as hell, slightly confused when they emerge. All those drugs will probably stop any adjustment to strategic thinking once they are aboard. Ho high inititive troops here.

As for the smells, Kkree have very sensitive noses and could probably tell the fake scent for what it was (unless you are very good - like the hivers). Hiver warbots are equipped with scent dispensors just to annoy the KKree.

Cheers
Richard

 

[marginaleye]

I'm willing to believe that convincing "faux essence of panicked K'kree" is probably exceedingly difficult to synthesize -- on the other hand, there are undoubtedly countless very lethal things that are (a) fairly easy to synthesize, and (b) easily dispersed in gaseous, micro-fine dust, or mist form.

How just how do the K'kree take planets that really don't want to be taken? In anything but a pristine battlefield environment, they're going to have serious difficulty. I'm willing to bet that most sensible defenders are willing to let their environment get a bit toxic, if the alternative is K'kree occupation. Do they just issue an ultimatum from orbit, and reduce anybody who refuses to instantly comply to radioactive glass? Not a very good way to build an empire.

Bleah.
As I see it, the K'kree are a desperate paranoid bunch in chronic decline. By sheer good luck, they must have enjoyed some early successes, but now are spared only by (a) the chronic disorganization of the (obligate carnivore) Vargr, and (b) the cautiousness, and basically non-violent nature, of the Hivers. Definitely not "serious Major Race material" for the long haul. The Hivers are undoubtedly using them as unwitting tools in some exceedingly subtle, long-range plan -- but what?

 

[flykiller]

Do they just issue an ultimatum from orbit, and reduce anybody who refuses to instantly comply to radioactive glass? Not a very good way to build an empire.

sure it is. a few examples, a lot of advertising, a couple of carrots, and there you are. our history has examples of cities which, when approached by brutal conquerers, simply threw open their gates. maybe the k'kree built their empire strictly on reputation.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Actually, it is the only way with K'kree psychology for them to build an Empire... since they hate carnivores, it would make little sense for them to bandy about with politics or diplomacy with them, and fits that they would be willing to destroy the target civilization and remold the world to the desired state... an Alien mentality? Perhaps... but the K'Kree have one strength that Humans do not... they do not fight with each other, or rarely so...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

a few examples, a lot of advertising, a couple of carrots

"The carrot is, we won't use the stick."