K'Kree Starship Design questions...

[aramis]

Canonically, the K'Kree show a semi-feudal, but NOT truly divisive, hierarchical structure.

They have many subject races... all herbivores or "Converted ominvores" and a couple of "Converted Carnivores". It is im0plied that K'Kree bioscience is high enough to synthesize needed protiens for carnivores, and have done so.

Apparently, this would probably have been by creating new "Meat-protien" plants, that lack certain telltale chemical markers.

And yes, the K'Kree don't like suits, either, unless they cn see, hear, and smell the rest of the herd.

So, rescue balls are probably not on the TO&E for the K'Kree starships.


Also: Important: they do not approve of breast-feeding, either, seeing it as a form of parasitism... so humans subject to the 2000 worlds are forced to raise their children on formula, and menstruating women probably are required to stay out of public areas...

Hmm.. makes me thinks of certain modern religions... nope better not go there...

 

[Straybow]

Important: they do not approve of breast-feeding, either, seeing it as a form of parasitism... so humans subject to the 2000 worlds are forced to raise their children on formula, and menstruating women probably are required to stay out of public areas...

So they are not mammals and dislike mammals almost as much as carnivores? Are they egg-layers?

Yes, K'kree would be defenseless against any chemical or biological warfare. In WWII the Germans had significant stockpiles of mustard gas and other nasty stuff. So why didn't they use them? Because they were never able to develop a gas mask that could fit a horse. They used horse carts extensively behind the front lines because of fuel shortages.

Another lesson from history: herds are dead meat. No initial numbers can insure survival against determined predation. Plains indians by the tens of thousands lived off the bison for centuries, but a few thousand white hunters wiped them out in a decade.

Here we have a race genetically and psychologically predisposed against doing all the things necessary for a scientific society to emerge. Could a K'kree stand the odors of working in a blacksmithy? Maybe, but why would K'kree even bother to develop a resource that isn't food? They need neither clothing nor shelter, nor fight wars.

I don't really believe that a society so described could advance far beyond the hunter-gatherer stage, much less have any interest in space or invent jump drive. If they were contacted by a dreaded carnivorous spacefarer they wouldn't have the industry to take advantage of what they might learn, including jump drive.

Unless on their home planet they managed to dominate an intelligent race that could do those things (and how then do they maintain their dominance as science progresses?) they will remain content on the steppes and plains of their home, using their intelligence to write poems or play chess or whatever equivalent of either they have.

OK, so maybe they are introduced to spacefaring by friendly herbivorous visitors, and learn the ways of science from the top down as it were. The other race is wiped out by a particularly virulent telephone handset pathogen, leaving the K'kree to themselves with all the requisite tech.

It just gets more ridiculous the closer you look at 'em. They have to have enough innate curiousity to seek more than an open field and an easy lay. They have to have enough drive to do things that compromise their sense of security in order to achieve something of greater value. Otherwise they aren't sophonts, just clever beasts.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Straybow:

Yes, K'kree would be defenseless against any chemical or biological warfare. In WWII the Germans had significant stockpiles of mustard gas and other nasty stuff. So why didn't they use them? Because they were never able to develop a gas mask that could fit a horse. They used horse carts extensively behind the front lines because of fuel shortages.

http://www.gasmasklexikon.com/Page/USA-Mil-Animals.htm
http://www.members.tripod.com/~gelean/geln_militaria.html
http://www.nbcd.org.uk/respirators/usa.htm
http://www.gasmasks.net/events/mots/mots.htm
http://www.gwpda.org/photos/bin03/imag0254.jpg

Perhaps the Germans in WWII didn't have then but there have been gas masks designed for horses. I would suggest there were other reasons why such weapons were not used in WWII, among them diplomatic and delivery problems.

As for the K'Kree I see no reason why they could not wear a gas mask and IIRC they have their own versions of combat armor, vacc suits, and BD all of which are sealable.

[EDIT]: Looks the Germans did have horse masks in WWII. /me shrugs

Casey

 

[aramis]

K'Kree are warm blooded (endothermic), herbivourous, furred, non-mammals. They give birth to live young, after internal gestation.

They do not have mammary glands. They use regurgitation to feed the young. (Many mammals also do this in addition to breast feeding or as part of the weaning process.)

A k'kree in a vacc suit is very carefully trained AND chemically aided (smell canisters).

 

[flykiller]

"... and chemically aided ... "

http://www.antnest.co.uk/index.html
http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/cec/h.htm
http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/bio/ento/cooper.htm

 

[Straybow]

I was oversimplifying to make the point. I used the term "fit" in its broadest possible sense.

The Germans did have them, but whether they could be effectively used is a separate matter. How much work can the horse do with constricted breathing? How quickly can the mask be put on? How often do the canisters need to be changed out, and how many of them are on hand? How do you feed or water the horse while under chem alert, and how long/often do you expect those conditions once chem warfare is introduced?

Animals can't do anything for themselves except run away. Whatever protection they need has to be done for them.

K'kree won't have that disadvantage, but they are innately skittish and claustrophobic. At the very least the number of males able to overcome those traits sufficiently will limit the size of their fighting forces and off-world logistics.

As a side-note, Andromeda has a race of "centaurs," the Vedrans. One was shown in an episode, and they had an interesting take. The species' lower body is compact and foreshortened, with the fore and hind quarters separated by less than a meter. The spine sloped downwards from shoulder to hip, giraffe-like, so that the angular change from the quadrupedal spine to the upright humanoid part was small.

 

[marginaleye]

The K'kree, as they're currently described, are clearly broken. Only an extraordinarily long run of good luck can explain their current position in the canonical Traveller universe, as a Major Race and one of the great starfaring powers. A better question to ask would be: Is there any way to "fix" the K'kree, to re-write them, so they'll actually be plausible as a great starfaring power, instead of being a freakish curiosity propped up by an implied Deus-ex-Machina or two (or three)?

 

[jatay3]

How's this. They aren't very good farmers(because they aren't good at ecology). But they might be made into very good chemists(from studying and preparing what was harvested)-after all they have those perfumes. They can be said to have really good jump fuel.
On the other hand what is wrong with making them a has-been? It is quite common for an empire to fall into that state. They are still difficult to overcome even if they can't expand further. And of course each empire is afraid that someone else will get the lions share if the K'kree, or part of them collapse; so they have an interest in the K'kree not collapseing.

 

[jatay3]

Another thought: maybe they reproduce faster than any other race. Numbers aren't the only thing in a technological world. But they are useful sometimes.

 

[marginaleye]

Here's my theory:

In some herbivores, young males are driven out of the herd, as soon as they reach puberty. They live apart, either alone or in unstable "bachelor bands," until they are old and strong enough to challenge, and defeat, the one adult male of an established breeding group, and take over his herd of females.

Suppose the K'kree followed this pattern.

Young K'kree males would be restless "bachelors," adventurous, very prone to wander, at least somewhat more tolerant of solitude, and full of the desire to "prove themselves." K'kree society might have a stable, conservative core of mature males, but there would be lots of aggressive, adventurous "bachelors" on the frontiers, trying out new things, squabbling and sparring with one another, and seizing new territory (to establish breeding groups of their own, without having to challenge an established male's position).

Furthermore, the patriarch of a breeding group would not be its absolute ruler. In such a system, daughters never leave the group into which they are born, so the stable "herds" would be *matrilineal,* with an ever-changing patriarch (who would probably have to take the opinion of his senior wives and their post-reproductive mothers pretty seriously).

Actually winning wives by *physically* defeating their husband *might* be a thing of the past -- but "to death do us part" would have no place in K'kree society. K'kree females would be drawn to the rising stars, best of the "bachelors." An older male, past his physical and intellectual prime, cautious and hidebound, would eventually be rejected, and would probably wander away, back into a placid (perhaps slightly melancholy) "second bachelorhood." Female desire for the vigor would counter-balance dull male conservatism.

So that's my proposal for a somewhat less-broken version of the K'kree. A bachelor might still be a bit claustrophobic, but he wouldn't feel the compelling need to be surrounded by hundreds of friends and relatives. Indeed, some at that stage of life might find it positively galling (an irritating reminded or post-puberty expulsion from their mothers' herds) and would positively *crave* the opportunity to spend long weeks alone aboard a one-man scout ship...

 

[jatay3]

The restless bachelors will do-but must be distinguished from the aslan without inheiratance. The competition for wives idea is a good one though.

 

[marginaleye]

The restless bachelors will do-but must be distinguished from the aslan without inheiratance. The competition for wives idea is a good one though.

Oops. I really hadn't thought of that. Actually, I never envisioned the "restless K'kree bachelor" being motivated *primarily* by an instinctive hunger for territory per se, the way Aslan males are. I had envisioned them being driven primarily by the desire to stand out, to intimidate other males and impress potential mates with their individual achievements. A "bachelor band" would be a very brittle institution, full of rivalry and fierce competition. There would also be fairly high level of turnover, too, simply because the more mature males would find associating with the "snot-nosed young punks" irritating, increasingly beneath their growing individual dignity. They would undoubtedly rally together in the face of actual danger (particularly when there would be no females or mature males to impress or intimidate), but the rivalry would never be far from the surface. Ironically, K'kree would be a bit Vargr-like "around the ragged edges," although the ancient, matrilineal breeding groups would provide a "solid center" of great stability.

An interesting possibility: suppose the post-reproductive "retired males" served as the stable nuclei of "bachelor bands" -- not as leaders, perhaps, but as teachers, as trusted advisors, as mentor-figures. A "retired male's" prestige would depend upon his career as a breeding patriarch. Such an institution could serve as a valuable inter-generational stabilizing influence.

 

[Ran Targas]

And the gears are spinning; how far can we take the herd animal paradigm? I'm not sure how much canon I'm treading on but ...

Do K'kree bucks/bulls go through rut during the breeding season? Maybe hormone stoked, ritualistic combat in the same vein as Pon'far?

Females only in heat during a specific annual time period poses problems socially too. Would a male K'kree accept artificial breeding as a method for ensuring his calves are born to his cows, even in his absence?

Maybe the females run the herds and males live as wanderers, like elephants?

Big families require feeding grounds ample enough to produce strong young, another reason why territorial acquisition would be a focus.

 

[marginaleye]

I'm not sure that an inflexible, biologically hardwired K'kree "mating season" is that likely. In human beings, the age of puberty is really sensitive to environmental conditions, and the menstrual cycle can be disturbed by stress and changes in nutrition. If the K'kree have a mating season, it would almost certainly be tied to the seasons, perhaps through some combination of sunlight and the availability of food. In a technological society, both of those environmental cues would be messed up. The widespread use of artificial lighting would mess up light-based cycles, and the year-round available of food (due to storage and cheap transportation) would mess up nutrition-based cycles. In short, I suspect that while the K'kree may have evolved with a hardwired mating season, it's no longer a serious factor shaping their society.

I really like the idea of a "shadow matriarchy" within the "stable central core" of K'kree society. Patriarchs come and go. They get old, feeble, and stuck in a mental rut, and bright new bachelors eventually replace them. If the females are dissatisfied with a patriarch's performance, neighboring males will find out -- presumably, female K'kree have subtle ways of "dropping hints" that they are ready for a change of spouse. When the females start sending quiet "go ahead" signals, their current patriarch will start facing a *lot* more challengers, which will undoubtedly put him under a lot more stress, and "wear him out" even faster. Thus, the patriarch is at the mercy of his wives. When he no longer satisfies them (socially and sexually) he's *gone.* But the older females can always rely upon the support of their daughters and grand-daughters. If the patriarch disagrees with the herd matriarchs (who are probably a generation or two older and wiser than he is) *too* often, he may find himself getting less nookie (a sort of "K'kree Lysistrata maneuver") and suddenly facing a lot of eager young bachelor challengers -- don't mess with grandma!

Just who would run K'kree society above the "breeding herd" level? If matrilineal herds are basically sedentary, and the males are more likely to be "newcomers" in any given area (after a period of restless bachelor wandering), then the females would have the advantage of "knowing the neighbors and the neighborhood" wouldn't they? A straight-forward patriarchal heirarchy just doesn't seem very plausible. A more likely arrangement, as I see it, would be a patriarchal hierarchy in which the males take the advice of the "herd matriarchs" seriously. Remember -- all the young males are *elsewhere.* They're all off doing "adventurous bachelor stuff." So who's growing the crops, maintaining the machinery, and shuffling the paperwork? The females. And who do the females ultimately take their orders from? Grandma. Physical coercion of the females wouldn't work very well. Sure, their natural inclination would be to be subservient, but there's undoubtedly a point beyond which they can't be pushed -- and if, in any given breeding herd, females greatly outnumber the males *and* the females are all related to one another -- sisters, cousins, and so forth -- they have a strong incentive to stand together. A frustrated patriarch couldn't call upon other males for support -- he would be opening himself up to ridicule, and inviting challenges (out of the fire, into the frying pan). On the other hand, I envision the female K'kree as a shy creature, uncomfortable around *strangers,* around non-kin. So the place of males in the "stable central core" of society would be secure, as "spokesmen," as it were.

 

[Straybow]

There was a serial novel in Analog a few years ago that involved a race along similar lines. Males outnumbered females four to one. During childhood they would cluster (by nature or by arrangement) into a constellation of 4 males cooperating and competing to form a family. Ultimately one would be chosen as the mate for the female, the others serving in social roles less easy to define in human social terms.

It seems that K'kree can have males in other roles—servants of some type. What if older males voluntarily accepted servitude in order to enjoy the presence of the herd? While they may not literally be eunuchs/geldings, there would have to be some assurance they provide no threat to the prime male.

Perhaps a female beyond childbearing years could keep her last husband instead of kicking him out. It would be better than getting beat up by every challenger, and he still gets a romp whenever she's in the mood. He's loyal to the herd, since a portion are his own offspring. In some cases he might be a fatherly advisor to the prime male, in other cases more aloof.

On the other hand, as males compete for leadership in the bachelor herds some might be gelded. Some might submit to it because they find themselves on the low end of the order, and being picked on by the other males is worse than being accepted in the mixed herd as a gelding. In an advanced civilization the process could be biochemical rather than physical, and could be reversible.

In an advanced civilization they would have a third alternative. Males could accept technical training and indenture to a herd, with some chance of being rewarded for excellence by the opportunity to breed. Those so rewarded get a handful of young females and a mother-in-law, starting a new herd. Those who don't at least enjoy a social standing.

However it works, herds would then have a larger number of adult males than just the prime. Herds can then be involved in heavy industry and industrialized farming without endangering the females.

There will always be those who are too high-strung for servitude, and they will be the soldiers and spacehands seeking glory. They'll put up with confined quarters, hard decking, space suits and latrines in hopes they will impress the ladies.

The ship described is a civilian transport. A military ship would be just as spartan as a human ship. Although necessarily roomier, no wide pseudofields provided. They have to make do with virtual reality treadmills.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Straybow:
There was a serial novel in Analog a few years ago that involved a race along similar lines. Males outnumbered females four to one. During childhood they would cluster (by nature or by arrangement) into a constellation of 4 males cooperating and competing to form a family. Ultimately one would be chosen as the mate for the female, the others serving in social roles less easy to define in human social terms.

It seems that K'kree can have males in other roles—servants of some type.

Nope. Not supported by extant canon. K'Kree have sufficient females, and even servants often have wives. Female K'Kree are apparently sapient, but socially restricted heavily. Worse than strict funamentalsit moslems.

Each male gets 1d6 wives.... so the ratio is apparently about 3:1, with combat losses taking the ratio up a tad.

Wives are there to raise children, be stewards, and birth children. A typical wife will have 1d6 children in attendence, too... so a single low rankign "free" PC male is Him and his wife, and his serf and his serf's wife. A high ranking male could be himmself, 6 wives, 6 aides, each with 6 wives, and thus 42 servants maximum, each with a handful of wives....

I've run an AM2 K'Kree game. A one shot adventure. The party consisted of 28 male K'Kree (3 PC's), and 100 females, with some 300 cabriti... whoops, whelps. Now o you see why they use 1000Td for a SCOUTSHIP? That's one ship creman, and his wives and servants and his servants wives.

The herds are not so much families (as would be typical for herd creatures) but a buisiness office or a Shop. One foreman, and if small, his handfull of workers. If big, the foreman has a few assistants, and THEY have workers. NPC herds could consist of a 4th layer, and/or have more than 6:1 expansion.

So, when you capture a company of marine combattants, say 50, you have just torqued off about 150 wives, and probably caught some 100-150 bodies...

How do they succeed? By having no code against killing predators. K'Kree will only keep you around if you are both useful AND vegetarian... if you are not both, they nuke any spacecraft which launch, plus any major population centers. If you are neither, then they just bomb from orbit until the WORLD is devastated, come baack in 20 or 30 years, and drop radioactive chelating microbes.

They are apparently EXCELLLENT chemists, based upon my read of AM2. Genetics aren't outside their efforts, either. They have a roughly TL13 baseline... with some TL 14 and even TL 15 technologies.

They do not fear combat, in fact, some enjoy it.

They just don't go anywhere without the wife and kids... and brook NO competition from other species. Theyve been hemmed in by the hivers, their own commm lag, and own ability to abstract to higher levels of authority.

H&I says that a hiver was able to make some K'Kree eat meat to survive... and ended the last Hiver-K'Kree war by sending immages of them doing so to the K'Kree high command.

 

[marginaleye]

How do they succeed? By having no code against killing predators. K'Kree will only keep you around if you are both useful AND vegetarian... if you are not both, they nuke any spacecraft which launch, plus any major population centers. If you are neither, then they just bomb from orbit until the WORLD is devastated, come baack in 20 or 30 years, and drop radioactive chelating microbes.

The problem is, this just isn't enough for success!

"Nuking from orbit" assumings that you have warships that are good enough to get within striking range of a potential target. K'kree warships are pathetic target-shaped wallowing tubs. The K'kree might be able to win naval battles by sheer numbers, but how many Pyrric victories can one endure?

K'kree starships are (largely for psychological reasons) grossly inferior to those of their potential victims. K'kree ground troops may be cheerfully genocidal, but their aversion to sealed suits makes them utterly incapable of surviving on a biologically and/or chemically hostile battlefield. They like to stick together in large groups, which is a bad idea on a high-tech battlefield were scattering and keeping your head down are both imperative. They have also have trouble with vehicles. K'kree infantry soldiers are just big, slow (relative to APC-born infantry and troops in powered armor), squishy-soft targets.

The K'kree undoubtedly have a widespread reputation for genocidal nastiness. Their ingrained xenophobia and racial superiority complex means that their idea of "diplomacy" is really little better than "delivering ultimatums." In short, everybody hates them, and nobody believes a word they say.

"Really wanting to win" and "trying really hard" just isn't good enough. Bloodthirsty fanaticism is a powerful advantage, but it doesn't make up for basic incompetence.

And, when faced with genocidal K'kree, wouldn't their enemies fight with equal ferocity, knowing that sheer survival was at stake?

As I said before...
The canonical K'kree are broken, unless one assumes that they got very lucky at some point in the distant past, but are now reduced to blustering, fighting rear-guard actions, and generally declining into obscurity in the face of competent and capable starfaring powers. That's why I suggested figuring out "non-broken alternative K'kree," since the idea of sentient herd-dwelling herbivores is an interesting one, and shouldn't be discarded entirely.

 

[Ran Targas]

There is always room for another empire in decline. K'kree could just be another example of a culture that has exceeded its own ability to control its passions resulting in the loss of their former glory. Makes them MAD too.

 

[aramis]

The K'Kree don't need to be masters of all terrains. They have subject races for that.

As for combat, K'Kree ships need not be "Powerful COmbattants" under any of the systems. Just good enough to get there. And that can mean HUGE, heavily armored ships, designed around a spinal and a bunch of bay weapons.

And while K'Kree suits are discomforting, thhey do exist. They ahve lots of systems not uused by other races, and great big bubble helmets.

K'Kree gas masks would porbably NOT be used; if it needs a mask, it needs a suit.

K'Kree use armor canonically (and not terriffically big, either), with crew of 3-5, no spouses. (Rules in striker.)

And unnder all extant combat systems, K'Kree ships are only inferior by about a factor of 3:1. (Part of the quarters allowance is for the spouses and children.)

 

[mike wightman]

Aramis makes a good point there. Nowhere in my Traveller library can I find anything to make K'kree ships vastly inferior to other races.
If designed using Book2 they are as good as any, it's cargo space that is sacrificed for crew quarters, not hardpoints and weapons.
Using High Guard and MT their warships may have to sacrifice one jump number or maneuver rating in order to have a high armour value and agility, but that's because they are TL13, not because of the 48t per stateroom crew requirement (and don't forget all warship crew are "crazies" and can double up at least). By the time you are building 50000dt ships and above, the crew requirement doesn't have much of an impact. This argument works for MT as well.
The lower computer number has a major effect on HG combat also, so I would agree with Aramis's ratio of 3:1 for TL13 vs TL15.