Mechs in traveller idea

[clementk]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
By articulation I mean to imply vehicles that are able to reconfigure their structure (hydralics, memory metals, etc.) based on the mode of operation (i.e. mobile howitzers deploy stabilizers when firing that must be retracted to maneuver).

<snip of rest of post>

Thanks for repeating your argument. Said tank would have treads, vents, thrusters, or other similar weak points. No tank is equally armored nor armored completely 360 all-around. As for joints I've seen several designs that have overlapping armor plates that protect the joints. Nor do all human/insectoid mecha use flat plates. Patlabor*, especially the first two movies, is a good example of this in taller mecha. Movie 1 designs Movie 2 designs

However I'm not talking about a Veritech or Gundam here anyway. Tachikomas, also referred to as mini-tanks in the show, have a smaller silhouette than a full size regular tank, have armored and covered joints, curved surfaces, and don't transform. Far as I can tell so far from my viewing of Ghost in the Shell : Stand Alone Complex the only change they have is going from walking on their four leg/wheels to riding on them, more akin to changing gears. They also have chameleon armor, are quite agile, and aware.

They're armed with a grenade launcher and a mini chain-gun, comparable to an urban AFV of the same size IMO, as well as the strand shooters and winch. There are full sized full tank versions with full chain-guns and cannon, again comparably armed.

Casey
edit- added last paragraph and Patlabor
* Patlabor and GitS have some of the same people on their creative teams

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Take a look at the current state-of-the-art main battle tank; there ain't a lot of chinks in its armor:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/M1A1+Abrams+tank

70tons
1500hp turbine power plant (1119kW)
30mph overland speed/42mph flat speed

State of the Art Weapon: 120mm main gun w/ an assortment of rounds (machine selected and fed)
3 machine guns (1 with with anti light armor capability)

State of the Art Armor: Reactive armor over homogeneous steel or Chobham composite with kevlar liner and depleted uranium rod reinforcement of the front hull and turret

State of the Art Sensors: Thermal imaging, laser range finding, firing computer that accounts for wind, range, weather, and type of ammunition; capable of engaging targets on the move and slow flying aircraft

All packaged in a target with a bow-on silhouette of less than 9 square meters. The tank has a profile height of only 2.43 meters.

And this can only get better with the introduction of gauss and fusion technology, in addition to exotic armors (crystalline iron/diamond/neutronium/etc.).

Think of what type of mech would be required to defeat an M1A1 Abrams on the battlefield. Would it weigh more? Would it have a larger cross-section or silhouette? Would it be more conspicuous on the battlefield (which is bad)? Would it have more parts that could wear or breakdown? Would it have a 250km range? Would it have 120mm cannon or the equivalent top-of-the-line armament? The real catch: would it COST more?

If so, would it really be the equivalent of an M1A1? Would you buy it instead of a M1A1? What about a future state-of-the-art tank of the same period?

 

[clementk]

Even current doctrine is that tanks by themselves are not the end-all be-all kings of the battlefield and are vulnerable in certain conditions, which is likely not to change. <shrugs>

Looking at the pics from your linked page and from this page http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm I see nice flat surfaces on either side of the chassis, top, bottom and possibly rear of an M1A1, exposed treads and wheels, and what looks like air vents on the flat area of the back of the chassis. The armor cannot be uniformly even/protective across all surfaces. Abrams require a lot of maintenance and specialized parts from my understanding, not as bad as say Apaches but grav tech can't be assumed to be any better, especially if it is cutting edge and high TL. In fact TA6 states a good third of the Imperium does not maintain grav tech as lacking the infrastructure to maintain or use it.

As for silhouette with high TL sensors I'm not certain it will be as much of a factor in protection as it currently is if for example you can detect *any* sized military vehicle with the same ease. I suspect anti-sensor/stealth technology would become more important. FWIW as I already mentioned, the Tachikomas have what is in Traveller technology chamelon armor and at a far lower TL than in Traveller. Advances in gauss, fusion, and exotic armor technology would also benefit humanoid/insectoid mecha allowing for deadlier weapons, more power in smaller packages, and better usage/shapes of armor. There would also be IMO the possibility of advanced gyros and other parts useful in humanoid or insectoid mecha after all if a jump drive is possible.

Seriously I'm not in for continuing a pi**ing contest between military designs pitted directly against each other. Since there are no humanoid/insectoid military designs in existence we can't directly compare RL stats anyway. I’m not even certain how useful a 1:1 comparison of such stats is anyway, in RL or an RPG.

As for examples from manga and anime I have provided several comparable to a classic tank configuration from Patlabor, Ghost in the Shell, and various other Shirow designs. Nor have I been mentioning only tank/TD designs nor even purely military designs, since vehicles are used for far more than military/combat even in a Traveller roleplaying environment. The title of this thread is "Mechs in Traveller idea", not "in RL". All we can really do here is assume things and obviously we disagree on what can be assumed.

I am merely trying to point out that there is more variety to humanoid/insectoid mecha designs than huge Gundams and the like, that tanks are not invulnerable, and that there is IMO room for some other designs in Traveller. MT and T20 support the concept of humanoid and insectoid vehicles and the like and I believe FF&S does as well. At the very least powered man-sized armor, which is humanoid mecha, and robot/robot vehicles are supported in every version of Traveller.

Casey

 

[selunatic2397]

This is OT but whenever i think of mechs i remember when i was pushed into refereeing a battlemech war and as a novice CT ref did my best until george's atlas kept overheating and everyone kept heckling him mercilessly. He passed me a note asking what the effect of a jump ship's fusion exhaust would be on the battle field. I couldn't find anything in the rules so I quietly said I hadn't a clue and the rest of the players said "Just wing it!"...since the jump ship in question was a real big one I, the newbie that I was at that time, passed a note saying that it would be like a blowtorch a few tens of klicks long easily melting the battle field into molten rock and did he REALLY want to do this??? George said he ejected from his mech and headed back to the jump ship saying loudly amid the jeers and catcalls "I do it!"
I loudly announced " The sky kind a glows blue....your all dead!" Gearge gloated...I explained what he did...I was sent out for burgers and pizza {They paid}...and george stayed behind. When I returned george was battered and rumpled, he promised to never do it again, I was asked what a traveller ships laser would do to a mech, I said pretty much no contest you couldnt hurt it and it could kill you from wayyy far away. They thought and quietly said they had lost interest in mechs in traveller. Sorry for the long post...I'm just a chatterbox today I guess

 

[clementk]

Hmm came across this over the weekend...

MT Rebellion Sourcebook p. 36, The Armies of the Imperium, under Types of Military Units:

"Specialized infantry may be equipped with individual grav belt transportation, with legged vehicles for operations on extremely rugged terrain or in restricted environments, or with individual armored suits for greater protection."

Casey

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

I'm toying with the ideas of using a mech in the game, but not as a large battlewalker. My players have been hired by a Hiver to take him/her/it exploring for the sake of scientific research. In addition to the standard air/raft I was thinking of a one man walker vehicle, specifially this one...it's small and armed for self defense, not assault:

I thought it would give things some variety, and since it's provided by a Hiver the reasoning for having it could be written off as alien

Besides that, the Hiver is studying the players (secretly of course) and might be seeing how they deal with such a non-standard vehicle.

In regards to battle mechs, remember that Traveller is highly diverse. I agree that technologically it's not very efficient, given things like tanks or warbots, but in specific cases, mechs might be the accepted choice. For example... perhaps a world dominated by storms and ragged canyons. Large fighting spiderlike machines to crawl along cliff faces where tanks can't go and where winds prohibit fliers. Another area where mechs would be accepted may be cultural. Mechs are generally humaniod, so it may be some religous significance... Only Gods wage war, so the people's weapons are created in their dieties' likenesses. Just some big walking robot food for thought....

 

[SJWaldock]

AFAIK one of the reasons 'mechs might not work in the real world is ground pressure. There's a lot of weight in a 'mech which all has to go on one foot at some point while walking which may well well cause ground failure. If the 'mech is running the forces would be greater. That's why I don't use 'mechs IMTU. I don't think they would fit well in canon, but I don't see why there shouldn't be the option to use them if people want to.

 

[veltyen]

A small one as suggested is basically just oversized battledress with built in weaponry. I use something nearly identical IMTU. Approximately 2 dTon with mainly AP weaponry for closs quarter fighting. Not tank size, but still considerably bigger then normal battledress. Close to a manned ED209.

 

[slyen2002]

what about the mechs from Patlabor? or Gasaraki? they are only 12 feet high and are more heavaly armed and armored then the battledress (unless armed with Energy weapon of course.)

 

[coldwar]

I've just been wondering about a message earlier about tanks and walkers, with tanks with better portectection and walkers with weak points.
The tank is always going to have lots of portection and i do not think a shell of any sort going down an exhaust vent at all, I mean it's just going to go thought it as it's vents armour is to thin to set off the shell and a shell cannot turn 45 to 90 degrees in such a small space. And remember a Tank cannot manouver in dense terrain where a Walker will have much more of a chance in denser terrain and will create less noise then a tank or similar vehicle.

The idea of walkers in a force is to support infantry in dense terrains where there is lots of cover. Also Walkers should be kept small about the height of two Average humans.

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

Forgive going off on a tangent, but mentioning shells turning 90 degrees and such gave me an idea for an anti-armor munition...

Crawler clusters...

Cluster bomb that drops munitions, but instead of grenades or mines, the submunitions are grenade sized autonomous bots... they swarm any armor and crawl into said areas like vents and ports....climbing inside as far as they can before detonating.

 

[gardclan]

Originally posted by N.I.C.E. Labs:
Forgive going off on a tangent, but mentioning shells turning 90 degrees and such gave me an idea for an anti-armor munition...

Crawler clusters...

Cluster bomb that drops munitions, but instead of grenades or mines, the submunitions are grenade sized autonomous bots... they swarm any armor and crawl into said areas like vents and ports....climbing inside as far as they can before detonating.

That will never work! (Now, quick! look the other way while I steal the idea!

)

Seriously, I do like the idea. It probably won't work too well for killing grav tanks and the like OUTRIGHT, but it would make a mess of things in a hurry. Mobility kills are in some ways just as bad as totaling a vehicle. I can't see them as being too good at piercing armor outright, but I can see these things blowing off mech legs, ruining grav lifters, and creeping into machinegun nests. And GOD help you if you are driving "hatch open", or have a loose engine plate.

Drop several of the lead vehicles with these munitions in a "bottleneck" to hem the rest in, and form a killsack for more conventional rounds to engage the vehicles behind that are now unable to maneuver. Well, thats one tactic anyway.

How would you deliver the payload? I think a missile would probably be the most effective means, but there may be others. Mines for example? Grav sensitive landmines could blow "up" into the bellies of low flying grav vehicles and deposit the beasties on the belly, or onto a mech leg. I don't think hypervelocity rounds would work too well, unless you have some sort of retrothruster on the cluster/crawlers to keep them from being smashed on impact.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Think of what these guys could do to an infantry unit! Autonomous mines would be a pretty nasty weapon!

 

[gardclan]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
^ Think of what these guys could do to an infantry unit! Autonomous mines would be a pretty nasty weapon!

Antipersonnel mines that burst out of the ground and chase the grunts down?

Oh my. My poor players.

 

[slyen2002]

muhhhahahahaha

now what would you say to them having grav boosters to hit things in the air?

also what TL would they be? I would imange somewhere near nanobots.

they would also be mean with meatgrinders or laser weapons which increase thier life span(minumaly none the less)

finnally how would the deal with Battledress?

 

[Nurd_boy]

Originally posted by Rhys Trask:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ran Targas:
^ Think of what these guys could do to an infantry unit! Autonomous mines would be a pretty nasty weapon!

Antipersonnel mines that burst out of the ground and chase the grunts down?

Oh my. My poor players. </font>[/QUOTE]hmmm,
smart 'bouncing betties'?......

 

[Ran Targas]

Terminator fanfic has "silverfish". These are explosive laden centipede like hunter/killers that crawl thru the urban rubble and detonate near humans. Same concept.

 

[gardclan]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
Terminator fanfic has "silverfish". These are explosive laden centipede like hunter/killers that crawl thru the urban rubble and detonate near humans. Same concept.

Well, yes. And whirling assassin bots have been around since a 1950s era short story entitled "The Fifth Type" (I've got it lying around in an anthology somewhere, but I forget who authored it). Those ones started out as intelligent hidden assassins designed to slice and dice opponents whom didn't have the correct IFF codes. Later on, since the machines were making themselves, they started making human mockups to kill with. Probably the worst one of the lot was a robotic lost-human child with an explosive teddy bear.

The idea is not very new, but I do like this particular adaptation of the idea. If the things are large enough to have a sort of gestalt intelligence, they could be very scarry indeed. Even Battledress has to have articulation points to move. Heck, these don't even have to have explosive charges... just plasma cutters. They could fairly well wreck anything they get onto in short order before their power cells burn out.

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

Well, I wasn't thinking about them going after ground units... more things with treads and tracks, but sure they could floaters... if a missile or artillery shell delivered them they'd just rain down on the units, perhaps catching on them magnetically then crawling over them, seeking out viewports, exhausts, sighting optics, weapons, and communications nodes.

As mines, just a sufficient explosive charge would blow them into the air and they'd rain down as before ( or up underneath a grav vehicle).

Hmmm.... I think I'll call them LOCUSTS

 

[N.I.C.E. Labs]

There's a wealth of uses for them. One comes to mind is a type with chemical sniffers that purposely seeks out and disables a unit's anti-laser aresol capability. Then laser guided batteries elsewhere can chop up the now defenseless unit. The Locust could even be a laser beacon as well, painting the target for the incoming rounds.


Going back to the Mech Idea.... these creeps could seek out joints and balance spots, center of gravity stress areas and the like.