• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Missiles in Traveller....

  • Thread starter Thread starter Centurion13
  • Start date Start date
I am repeatedly surprisided in an awful lot of threads by the relatively luddite opinions of what tech can be fielded in the 57th century. A TTL 6-7 missile might be IR guided. TL-7-8 moves to milimetric radar, ladar, or thermal optics, possibly compounds of these techs. A TL-12 missile using a simple IR type tracker would be capable of ID locking, resistant to all kinds of spoofing and dirt cheap.

I won't even attempt to handwave or try to guess the sophisticated tracker possibly with molicircs, advanced programing and stunning processing capable dirt cheap computer power.

One thing the ship combat tables don't take into account is the relative TL of the FC and missiles VS. the target. Put bluntly, TTL 15 missiles should be a terrifying thing to a TTL 12 Naval power like the Sword Worlds imho.
 
I am repeatedly surprisided in an awful lot of threads by the relatively luddite opinions of what tech can be fielded in the 57th century. A TTL 6-7 missile might be IR guided. TL-7-8 moves to milimetric radar, ladar, or thermal optics, possibly compounds of these techs. A TL-12 missile using a simple IR type tracker would be capable of ID locking, resistant to all kinds of spoofing and dirt cheap.

Except, of course, for the inconvenient fact that dumb IR homing missiles as the default, ubiquitous standard are, in fact, canonical since about 1977...

:smirk:

Spectacular, amazing, indistinguishable-from-magic missiles are certainly doable (cf. SS3 for starters), but not at the price/mass/volume point used as traditional baseline; technological improvements inevitably drive capabilities upward, but seldom drive costs downward -- mostly due to market forces.
 
Except, of course, for the inconvenient fact that dumb IR homing missiles as the default, ubiquitous standard are, in fact, canonical since about 1977...
This is just another case where (if it's true) the canon makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not going to argue with you about what the earliest rulesets say -- I've checked HG2, MT, and Striker, and don't have any interest in relying on earlier versions than those; I'd just as soon try to get along with an Apple IIe instead of my trusty Dell PC.
Spectacular, amazing, indistinguishable-from-magic missiles are certainly doable (cf. SS3 for starters), but not at the price/mass/volume point used as traditional baseline; technological improvements inevitably drive capabilities upward, but seldom drive costs downward -- mostly due to market forces.
This last bit is just flat wrong. I bought a Casio FX-300V scientific calculator back in 1987 and paid $49.99 for it (which would have bought around 50 gallons of gasoline back then); this week, when it finally gave up the ghost, I replaced it at Staples with another Casio that cost me $8.99 (which would buy around 5 gallons of gasoline today) for essentially-identical functionality. If you look at a straight dollar for dollar comparison, I'm getting identical performance for just about one-sixth of the price; if you index to gasoline to account for inflation, I'm paying one-TENTH of the price. Sure, I'm getting a calculator that's regarded as more bare-bones in comparison to the best that's available, but I have limited needs for a handheld these days.

Then again, as I recall, earlier rule versions (such as HG2) had no limit on how many missiles you could carry or fire (OK, your ship did have to go in for annual maintenance, and presumably you have to break off firing while you're in the yards), which ought to indicate that these rules should not be expected to accurately simulate reality for missiles.

I personally like the GT system, where a basic capability level is established for missiles at GTL 10 & 12, and costs are assigned to each one. They require operator guidance unless you buy missiles with a terminal guidance package, and while you *can* go into more elaborate work to design a missile with different capabilities, GT Starships gives you enough options to satisfy the vast majority of players. Your ship has a defined capacity for missiles in the launcher, and rules are given for carrying extras as cargo, transferring them into active storage, and building anti-blast magazines. My only gripe is that they don't allow for salvos of missiles, but that's easy enough to house-rule.

You still wind up with "general-purpose missiles", but there are two sets of figures for cost, performance, and weight to handle the two common tech levels they are produced at; they're defined at a certain volume, so that the same launcher can handle appropriately-sized missiles of any TL. You can go for more detail if you'd like (and anyone willing to consider VLS missile mounts and the maximum bearing change allowed before safety measures kick in has, by definition, gone in for more detail), but you certainly don't have to, and it makes a lot more sense. Missile combat winds up feeling more like being chased by a torpedo while playing Harpoon, but I consider that to be a good thing.
 
the earliest edition, CT, in Bk 2, limited to 3 shots per launcher, plus the ability to carry 12 reload missiles in turret, reloading 1 missile per turn.
 
I bought a Casio FX-300V scientific calculator back in 1987 and paid $49.99 for it (which would have bought around 50 gallons of gasoline back then); this week, when it finally gave up the ghost, I replaced it at Staples with another Casio that cost me $8.99 (which would buy around 5 gallons of gasoline today) for essentially-identical functionality.

It is not that simple. You replaced a low-volume, high-margin professional-grade instrument at its general TL with a mature, mass-produced piece of disposable consumer electronics approximately two TLs later. Yes, from your perspective as a user, the functionality is the same; the market and the manufacturing context, however, are completely different -- I doubt, for example, that your new calculator will last nearly as long as the one it replaces, being much more cheaply-constructed than the earlier-generation one.

Trav missiles are mass-produced, standardized commodities that are presumably mature technologies sold in mature markets. You must also bear in mind that a significant portion of the cost of a missile must be borne by the warhead, which itself is capable of destructive force unparalleled by anything in the present day. (The 2500-kilometer primary blast radius is mind-boggling.)

If you look at a straight dollar for dollar comparison, I'm getting identical performance for just about one-sixth of the price; if you index to gasoline to account for inflation, I'm paying one-TENTH of the price.

Which is why inflation is not indexed to the price of gasoline -- gasoline prices are too volatile to be a reliable metric. Gasoline prices today are about half what they were this time last year, but food prices just keep going up.

There is another whole problem with VLS missiles in that Trav vehicles in combat are typically accelerating in vacuum. A VLS missile launched to target a vessel in the direction of the launching vessel's acceleration vector may find itself left behind as its launching vessel promptly accelerates directly into its intended LOS/LOF. That will require some more fire control and/or IFF to avoid the missile turning forward and promptly plowing right into its launching vessel's own stern.

It is safer practice to have the missile thrust itself straight towards the target from off of its launch rack; the engineering is simpler, and therefore has fewer potential failure modes.

The problem with missile guidance in Trav space combat is that any form of directed energy intended to provide guidance to the missile is subject to jamming/spoofing from various ECM techniques. Even the idea of painting a target with a designating beam runs afoul of sandcasters; and if you are painting the target with a successful To Hit roll, you might as well go ahead and shove a regular laser beam/pulse over there and do some proper damage.

Therefore, Trav missiles need to be fire-and-forget, or else they are too vulnerable to countermeasures. The advantage to IR homing is that it is effectively impossible to cloak IR in a vacuum -- if such a breakthrough is possible at some wondrous high TL, it implies violating the laws of thermodynamics, which then opens the door to perpetual motion machines and time travel and all sorts of similar things. Given how uptight many Trav player are about accepting reactionless gravitic drives, this would only make matters worse.

Also, the problem with an overly-sophisticated fire-and-forget missile is that it is arguably a type of warbot, and only perverse, degenerate cultures like Zhos and Hivers dishonorably rely upon such immoral weapons to do the dirty work of shedding blood. That is what makes them inferior "civilizations."

So... this takes us eventually back to simple, minimal guidance, IR-homing missiles that one carefully points in the direction of the enemy's thermally-significant power source and lets fly.

The 2500-km-radius danger space does the rest...
 
the earliest edition, CT, in Bk 2, limited to 3 shots per launcher, plus the ability to carry 12 reload missiles in turret, reloading 1 missile per turn.
Where does Bk 2 say there are 12 reload missles in the turret, Aramis? I don't see that in my 1st ed.

The 2500-km-radius danger space does the rest...
Boomslang, how does one get a 2,500 km blast radius in space where there is no atmosphere to carry the blast? I also do not see that figure in Bk 2 or 5.

Not trying to be confrontational, guys, but I disagree with both assertions.
 
Boomslang, how does one get a 2,500 km blast radius in space where there is no atmosphere to carry the blast? I also do not see that figure in Bk 2 or 5.

It is a consequence of how vectors are plotted under B2; if a missile's vector passes within 25mm of the target's vector, it is a successful intercept. Using the default 1mm = 100km scale, that gives the warhead a truly awe-inspiring blast radius.

Admittedly, there is no atmo in space to carry a shockwave, but neither is there any atmo to slow down the shrapnel -- so this is very vaguely plausible, if there is enough, and fast-enough, fragmentation of the warhead.

And God only knows how proximity fusing works in such scenarios... again, an appeal to Clarke's Law is perhaps in order.
 
One thing the ship combat tables don't take into account is the relative TL of the FC and missiles VS. the target. Put bluntly, TTL 15 missiles should be a terrifying thing to a TTL 12 Naval power like the Sword Worlds imho.


Thunderchilde,

But the combat tables do take tech level into account; the combat tables in HG2 that is(1).

Even assuming the computers aboard the ships in question are "maxed out" by tech level; i.e. a warship, that TL F missiles gets a +3 DM on it's To-Hit roll against a TL C target. Even nastier, the same target recieves a -3 DM when it tries to use sand, energy weapons, or dampers against that same missile. In a game that uses 2D6, a -/+3 DM is substantial.

When you remember that most players will be flying a vessel whose computer is "maxed out" to it's jump rating; i.e. a civilian ship, the "DM gulf" becomes absolutely huge. A single 10dTon fighter operated by Podunk-III can prang the player's Leviathan-class merchantman at ease.

Keeping the above in mind, the answer as to why Traveller didn't directly tackle detailed tech level effects, missile guidance, weapon perfromance envelopes, and other issues is a simple one: Speed Of Play. GDW was creating a roleplaying game that had to cover everything from pistols to psionics and not a Harpoon-like wargame with roleplaying aspects.

Even my players, most of whom were wargamers first, would not have stood still for an uber-detailed, Seekrieg-ish, "bucket o' dice", "42 rivets on that airlock hatch", drowning in details, monstrosity. They wanted to play GDW's Traveller and not AH's Trobruk.

Because we were wargamers, I was able to ginger things up by using Mayday's vector movement, HG2's combat rules, and SS3's missile designs. What I didn't do is bog the game down and - most importantly - bog my preparations down by overly detailing what were minor details.

There's a principle in economics called "The Pareto Effect". Boiled down it states that, on any given task, you spend 20% of your time handling 80% of the work and 80% of your time handling the remaining 20% of the work. When gaming, or preparing for a game, you need to decide just what that remaining 20% should consist of because that's what you'll be spending most of time tackling.

For some folks that remaining 20% will involve designing special missiles for the players to shoot and for others it will involve designing special animals for the players to shoot. The beauty of Traveller's is that the you can pick and choose where you want your emphasis to lay. You aren't stuck using a lavishly detailed ship combat system because nothing else is available, just you aren't stuck preparing a lavishly detailed planetary ecology for each planetfall because nothing else is available.


Regards,
Bill

1 - I'm assuming that, because you're discussing tech level effects in starship combat, you must be talking about HG2. That's because tech levels are not part of either starship construction or combat in LLB2.
 
Last edited:
...I'm assuming that, because you're discussing tech level effects in starship combat, you must be talking about HG2. That's because tech levels are not part of either starship construction or combat in LLB2.

Well, technically tech levels are part of starship construction and combat in LBB2 through the TL Table in LBB3 :)

It breaks down drive tables and weapons by TL there. And the weapons breakdown is more interesting imo than in HG, at least as far as introductory TL. But you're correct there are no direct combat effects.

But I'm sure you know that and had just forgotten for a moment. Good to see you still around here now and then :D
 
Well, technically tech levels are part of starship construction and combat in LBB2 through the TL Table in LBB3


Dan,

Yup, they're listed there alright.

It breaks down drive tables and weapons by TL there. And the weapons breakdown is more interesting imo than in HG, at least as far as introductory TL.

Yup, the introductory breakdown is very interesting.

But you're correct there are no direct combat effects.

And that's the kicker!

Thunderchilde had complained that tech level differences were ignored in CT and he was right up to a point. In the First Three LBBs, the effects of tech level are ignored. However, a lot of other important things can't be found in those books too...

... like the entire THIRD IMPERIUM. ;)

In the books following the First Three, tech level plays important roles. We've introductory TLs for weapons in LLB:4, introductory TLs for weapons and technologies plus TL combat effects in LBB;5, and TL effecting trade in LLB:7 among many other things.

So, tech level effects are there in CT, but it's not manadatory that you use them in every case. You can trade "tech level free" or build a ship "tech level free" or fight a starship battle "tech level free" if you want to. You can choose what level of complexity you and your players need for your campaing, an adventure within that campaign, or just an individual session. It is your choice as to where to spend your limited preparation and gaming time.

If it's not your thing, you and your players don't need to wade through a missile's technical spread sheet in every space battle or worry over the details of the Denebian Tree Ox's reproductive habits in every 4km hike. Then again, if it is your thing or the adventure demands it, you can do both of those things!

But I'm sure you know that and had just forgotten for a moment. Good to see you still around here now and then :D

I've been busy elsewhere, but I can find time now and again to visit.


Regards,
Bill
 
Last edited:
It is not that simple. You replaced a low-volume, high-margin professional-grade instrument at its general TL with a mature, mass-produced piece of disposable consumer electronics approximately two TLs later. Yes, from your perspective as a user, the functionality is the same; the market and the manufacturing context, however, are completely different -- I doubt, for example, that your new calculator will last nearly as long as the one it replaces, being much more cheaply-constructed than the earlier-generation one.
As the guy with both pieces of equipment in my home (I gave the old one to my four-year-old as a toy), I'll thank you to rely on my assessment of their capabilities. You seem to have an overdeveloped regard for the 1987-era Casio equipment; the fx-300v was aimed at students, and it was not an especially high-grade piece of equipment even then, as it lacked graphing capability. Its durability was only marginal; my girlfriend killed my first one when she stepped on it barefoot, and I had to get a replacement quickly before an upcoming exam (the calculator, not the girlfriend). The new FX-260 has the EXACT SAME functionality -- trig functions, single-variable statistics, the same menu of mathematical functions, polar-to-rectangular conversion. It's also more solidly constructed than the older calculator, with no faceplate that will come off, and a more ergonomic design; check with me in 20 years to see if it's lasted as long as its predecessor, but as the guy holding it, I'd be very surprised if it gives out on me. Nobody's stepped on this one yet, but the body is definitely stiffer, and the display isn't sensitive to being pressed on.

I'm curious about your assessment that 1987 vintage electronics are two TL's behind where we are now for cheap gear; do you think we've gotten to TL9 already, or do you think that a solar-powered scientific calculator counts as TL6 gear?

Finally, my point still stands -- for a piece of gear with the EXACT SAME capabilities, as technology improves, you can expect prices to drop. Yes, for gear that maintains the same position with respect to the "bleeding edge", you'll see less of a cost decrease, if there is any at all; however, if there is a fixed level of performance that you're seeking, it's cheaper to produce at a higher tech level. Call it a product of market forces, or a result of technological advancement if you like, but the result is still the same.
Trav missiles are mass-produced, standardized commodities that are presumably mature technologies sold in mature markets. You must also bear in mind that a significant portion of the cost of a missile must be borne by the warhead, which itself is capable of destructive force unparalleled by anything in the present day. (The 2500-kilometer primary blast radius is mind-boggling.)
If seeing that number hasn't clued you in to your... idiosyncratic interpretation of the rules, nothing I can say will change your mind.
Which is why inflation is not indexed to the price of gasoline -- gasoline prices are too volatile to be a reliable metric. Gasoline prices today are about half what they were this time last year, but food prices just keep going up.
I used that number because I remembered the price of gas in 1987 more clearly than anything else; as a broke college student driving a muscle car, gasoline breaking the $1.00 mark made an impression on me. I consulted the Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation Calculator (found at http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl), which measures the change in the Consumer Price Index from one year to another, and gives you a quick way to evaluate buying power of a dollar amount in one year expressed in dollars from another year. I paid $49.99 for that piece of gear if 1987, and the Inflation Calculator tells me that it's equal to $93.48 today. For $93.48, I can buy 10.398 of the functionally-equivalent pieces of gear; that matches up to the gasoline index I calculated before to two significant figures, which is certainly an acceptable level of accuracy for these discussions. I agree that it's not a valid way to strictly define inflation, but for a quick-and-dirty comparison of "prices today" vs. "prices back then", it's a passable comparison.

I'll skip the rest of the VLS discussion, as the whole issue really depends on your ruleset. If you use a ruleset where your missiles can't accelerate more than you can, and where you don't have any sort of software in your weapons, then you have some problems ahead of you figuring out how missile combat will work. I still think anyone who buys a missile without a terminal-guidance package might just as well spend his money on shoes to throw at the enemy, as they're likely to do as much damage (assuming you put a 2500-km blast radius warhead on them, of course). :)
 
Boomslang, how does one get a 2,500 km blast radius in space where there is no atmosphere to carry the blast? I also do not see that figure in Bk 2 or 5.

It is a consequence of how vectors are plotted under B2; if a missile's vector passes within 25mm of the target's vector, it is a successful intercept. Using the default 1mm = 100km scale, that gives the warhead a truly awe-inspiring blast radius.

Admittedly, there is no atmo in space to carry a shockwave, but neither is there any atmo to slow down the shrapnel -- so this is very vaguely plausible, if there is enough, and fast-enough, fragmentation of the warhead.

And God only knows how proximity fusing works in such scenarios... again, an appeal to Clarke's Law is perhaps in order.

I see this as being a form of terminal guidance, similar to the description of Drone Missiles in Striker (Rule 38B3/4):

"A drone missile moves in the same way as a grav vehicle. It ends its movement as soon as it sees a target.
"A drone missile attacks...acting as a tac missile launched from the position it occupied after its movement."

The missile 'sees' its target when it gets within 2500km and then 'launches' itself directly at the target with its terminal guidance package from that range. It doesn't explode at a range of 2500km and hope the shrapnel does some damage when it gets there.
 
I see this as being a form of terminal guidance, similar to the description of Drone Missiles in Striker (Rule 38B3/4 (snip)


Icosahedron,

Precisely.

Much like the "How Can Sand Be Fired After Laser Hits?" fallacy in HG2, the inferred 2500 km blast radius in LLB:2 is just another example of reading too much into the rules.

LBB:2 has that Within 25mm = Missile Hit written in it because the folks at GDW were wargamers and, more importantly, miniature wargamers. All mini rules have something like this to solve line-of-sight and other similar problems. Usually, if any part of the firing unit's base can trace a straight, unblocked line to any part of the target unit's base, the target is in sight.

Such "Get it in the ballpark" rules save a lot of arguments around the sand table. Believe me, you'd much rather have a little 25mm fudge factor thrown in than see people using fishing line, "pulse" movement, and other increasingly desparate measures to see if that missile really intercepted its target!

LBB;2 is only imperfectly modeling space combat, it can only imperfectly model space combat and still be playable. The 25mm hit radius is simply one of many ease of play fudge factor within the game.


Regards,
Bill
 
Last edited:
I wrote an article on missile magazines that's on Freelance Traveller that discusses this very point.

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/missilemags.html

I have used the many articles on Freelance Traveller for quite some time. All good stuff there :)

LBB;2 is only imperfectly modeling space combat, it can only imperfectly model space combat and still be playable. The 25mm hit radius is simply one of many ease of play fudge factor within the game.


Regards,
Bill

That's really what I had assumed. That is also 2nd ed - my 1st ed does not have that fudge factor that I can find.

Finally, I have to go along with Capt. Midnight about the cost/performance effects of Tech Level. My 1978 Exidy Sorcerer (32k RAM, 2 MHz Z80, tape) cost $1700. My 1984 Macintosh (128k RAM, 8 MHz MC68000, 3.5" floppy) cost about the same. My last computer cost me about $600 for 2 G RAM, 2.6 GHz cpu, 200 GB hard drive.
 
My usual take on Traveller missiles, from LBB2 & HG2 sans SS3, is that the canonical LBB2 missiles are civilian missiles, which sacrifice velocity & warhead for range in a general purpose role. Military turrets would sacrifice range for velocity & larger warhead; more like a Sea Sparrow, though smaller at 1.5m length and 15 cm diameter.

Bay missiles would then be the RIM-66/67 SM-2 relative to the Sea Sparrow-inspired turret missiles. 4.5 m in length, 45 cm diameter, 4 to 6 times the warhead. Bays could either be some sort of VLS (or Horizontal version) or simply larger pepperbox launchers. Player preference applies, though withthe VLS option a standard salvo has to be defined.

I have torpdoes, too, but they are smallcraft, equipped with a computer running homing and maneuver-evade programs. They mirv at a pre-set distance into 9 or so turret missiles. Usual models are around 2 to 5 tons. This weapon allows "torpedo boats" with significant hitting power, but they are easily destroyed in turn. Something like a Type S extended by 50 tons and equipped with 4 of these in tubes (no reloads).

YMMV.
 
Last edited:
For the record, I am running a MGT campaign right now. All my CT bit the soggy dust in a flood long ago. I am running on recollections of what I once had, so it may be a little off track:rolleyes: I never had SS3 either as far as I can recall.

As to the wonder weapon comment, I was perhaps not as clear as I meant to be. I was attempting to draw a picture of the way tech advances. The seeker head on the latest sidewinder model is so much more capable than that on the A model as to be a wonder weapon. Being a SCI-FI game, if it rarely misses, then you better be able to use active defences, CIWS, manuevering, etc.

The 27mm range gated and sensor fused grenade launcher is frankly a wonder weapon. It will fly over your foxhole and detonate right overhead. It will fly into the center of the room and detonate, after going through the window. It will go just pass the corner your hiding behind and explode in your face. It's here, now at TTL 7-8. In a underbarrel launcher no less. Most of the guys in a squad are supposed to get them.

The sub MOA accuracies they are achieving at stunning ranges with modern sniper rifles come close to being wonder weapons.

I'd argue that the MG42 was a wonder gun in WWII, it is still a very competitive squad MG. The 88L70 still outshot any fielded tank gun in the mid fifties, wonder gun.
 
Back
Top