MMORPG Poll
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BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
OK, I stuck my head back in here.
Here are a couple of thoughts. The random generation of planets is already done. Fractal Terrains from ProFantasy does a nice job. It then exports, seemlessly to cc2 Pro, and if you have the Cosmographer add-on produces canon planetary maps. No sense in re-inventing the wheel. You can then script random towns, cities, etc. (I have seen random towns for the competetion Fractal Mapper, and it gets down to random tavern interiors.)
A solid script will stand you in better stead than reinventing the wheel. Further a database like the one in Astrosysthesis 2 will stand you in better stead than randomly generating the system over and over again. You would be better off generating the entire sector first and defining the field of play instead of generating it on the fly. After all people, even Travellers, tend to establish a home base of operations. Places get revisited. And if 2 different players both have their own idea of planet BOB, yet it is different each time they get there, or simply different for each of them they couldn't communicate about it.
I still don't see how this would work though. Traveller is about travel. The nature of the Traveller Universe is defined by Jump Drive and the fastest means of communication is a Starship. So handwaving Jump, in terms of game time, as it is rather boring to sit on a ship for a week with no outside contact, may seem like the thing to do. However without the mechanics of Jump it isn't Traveller. Further the handwave works fine for one band of adventurers but we aren't talking about one band of adventurers, we are talking about several bands of adventurers scattered across 440 systems. Each with different time requiremnets, and travelling at different rates. And no communication possible between them unless they happen to be on in the same system, unless you chat by post. (Which also takes time.)
People moving often, for example a Scout, would be in a different time frame than those that are more stationary, for example, a Mercenary Unit that is tied down in combat operations on a planet for a while.
Without Jump it isn't Traveller. It might be a neat game, but it would just be another space game, and while it might have a draw it certainly wouldn't be Traveller without figuring out how to reengineer the time mechanics and Jump Drive.
So, Traveller, would be extremely difficult to implement without being super boring for some, or too fast for others.
Here are a couple of thoughts. The random generation of planets is already done. Fractal Terrains from ProFantasy does a nice job. It then exports, seemlessly to cc2 Pro, and if you have the Cosmographer add-on produces canon planetary maps. No sense in re-inventing the wheel. You can then script random towns, cities, etc. (I have seen random towns for the competetion Fractal Mapper, and it gets down to random tavern interiors.)
A solid script will stand you in better stead than reinventing the wheel. Further a database like the one in Astrosysthesis 2 will stand you in better stead than randomly generating the system over and over again. You would be better off generating the entire sector first and defining the field of play instead of generating it on the fly. After all people, even Travellers, tend to establish a home base of operations. Places get revisited. And if 2 different players both have their own idea of planet BOB, yet it is different each time they get there, or simply different for each of them they couldn't communicate about it.
I still don't see how this would work though. Traveller is about travel. The nature of the Traveller Universe is defined by Jump Drive and the fastest means of communication is a Starship. So handwaving Jump, in terms of game time, as it is rather boring to sit on a ship for a week with no outside contact, may seem like the thing to do. However without the mechanics of Jump it isn't Traveller. Further the handwave works fine for one band of adventurers but we aren't talking about one band of adventurers, we are talking about several bands of adventurers scattered across 440 systems. Each with different time requiremnets, and travelling at different rates. And no communication possible between them unless they happen to be on in the same system, unless you chat by post. (Which also takes time.)
People moving often, for example a Scout, would be in a different time frame than those that are more stationary, for example, a Mercenary Unit that is tied down in combat operations on a planet for a while.
Without Jump it isn't Traveller. It might be a neat game, but it would just be another space game, and while it might have a draw it certainly wouldn't be Traveller without figuring out how to reengineer the time mechanics and Jump Drive.
So, Traveller, would be extremely difficult to implement without being super boring for some, or too fast for others.
BetterThanLife brings up some really good points there. If it's multiplayer, you have to have the planets consistant for everyone. To make each system only accessable to the players who are actually there, a model along the lines of Guild Wars might work. The server would establish a peer to peer connection between players in the same system and their spawned gamespace would be inaccessable to everyone else.
The jump-time problem is a real issue though. If player A is running around on the planet in real time, player B should not be able to make a cargo run to another system and back in a couple of hours. I have to agree with BetterThanLife in that there doesn't seem to be a 'Traveller' solution to this problem. Thinking about it, this time structure would be ideal for a turn based play-by-mail game, or something similar.
On a related topic, has anyone played the latest 2 offerings from 3000AD - Universal Combat Gold, or Universal Combat A World Apart? Check out the screenshots on their website:
UC A World Apart
UC Gold
UC Special Edition
The jump-time problem is a real issue though. If player A is running around on the planet in real time, player B should not be able to make a cargo run to another system and back in a couple of hours. I have to agree with BetterThanLife in that there doesn't seem to be a 'Traveller' solution to this problem. Thinking about it, this time structure would be ideal for a turn based play-by-mail game, or something similar.
On a related topic, has anyone played the latest 2 offerings from 3000AD - Universal Combat Gold, or Universal Combat A World Apart? Check out the screenshots on their website:
UC A World Apart
UC Gold
UC Special Edition
I would like to let you guys know I've been reading many of your posts, Traveller MMORPG is possible. Yes, Jump does pose a problem but, there is already a SCIFI game out there where hyperspace was supposed to exist it space travel doesn't seem to hurt the game even though it is a bit unrealistic. Having said that, I really am interested in more view points on this, I have spoken to Marc Miller regarding a MMORPG and he's allowed me to tinker with a potential concept, so pls keep these ideas flowing.
Naturally, there wouldn't be a week-long jump lag. It would have to bend the rules for the sake of being an online game. I think.
Though it could have some sort of jump delay.
And, the more detailed the system, the longer the jump delay could be.
But I reckon a delay of, say, one minute or more would turn people off.
You could even tinker with the concept. If you earn a high rank, perhaps you can afford a jump drive with a shorter delay.
Though it could have some sort of jump delay.
And, the more detailed the system, the longer the jump delay could be.
But I reckon a delay of, say, one minute or more would turn people off.
You could even tinker with the concept. If you earn a high rank, perhaps you can afford a jump drive with a shorter delay.
some thoughts I've had: is just prior to the game beginning the Imperium in the Spinward Marches let loose an ancient artifact which controls jump at the subsector borders. Thus jump within a subsector is normal but crossing from a subsector to another would be only through controlled access points.
There is basically a few questions about ship travel
- terrestrial travel by vehicles and shipsboats not to mention smaller sized ships
- Travel from planets to points of interest in a system
- jump from parsecs to other parsecs
Currently for jump I was looking at having "instances" which would equate to "safe jumpoff" points ... so the space around a planet would be common and set but prior to jumping to another parsec the ship would have to be piloted to a "jumpoff area". As the jump calcs are initiated the ship and crew are placed into a random instance for a few secs
the travel at Nap of the Earth NOE would be permitted and is necessary... keep in mind, there will be shuttles and taxi service, because buying air rafts is not cheap
As a added bonus think about this, allow PCs to pirate off of other PCs and work in boarding procedures.
Sooooooo?
There is basically a few questions about ship travel
- terrestrial travel by vehicles and shipsboats not to mention smaller sized ships
- Travel from planets to points of interest in a system
- jump from parsecs to other parsecs
Currently for jump I was looking at having "instances" which would equate to "safe jumpoff" points ... so the space around a planet would be common and set but prior to jumping to another parsec the ship would have to be piloted to a "jumpoff area". As the jump calcs are initiated the ship and crew are placed into a random instance for a few secs
the travel at Nap of the Earth NOE would be permitted and is necessary... keep in mind, there will be shuttles and taxi service, because buying air rafts is not cheap
As a added bonus think about this, allow PCs to pirate off of other PCs and work in boarding procedures.
Sooooooo?
Kursgishishi
SOC-2
A Traveller MMORG would be the bee's knees!
Electronic Arts had an online game called Earth & Beyond. In the game a player would create a character (very similar to SIMS) and design a starship (based on three different versions of hull shape, wings, colour, etc). Each character had their own starship although you could join with other players and fly around as a squadron. A real benefit if the lead had a fast ship. A character would have three different experience areas; combat, exploration and trade. The more you traded the higher your trade would go. Each area max'd at lvl 50. Each character had skills which would allow you to run better wpns, engines, trade for a higher profit, etc.
It dealt with space travel using Nav points (when in system) and star gates (between systems).
Most movement was done in your starship. You could dock at a starport and your character could walk around the starport and buy and sell items at various shops. The starports also had job listings, where you could get a job taking cargo to a specific starport, get paid out and then look for another job. It was a great game (it's no longer supported by EA but there is a players movement to emulate the game).
The Traveller Universe would be an ideal MMORG. A player could be a loner and do his own thing or join a group and head off to raid.
If a MMORG was to be created it could probably start small (subsector) with small player ships. If the game proves profitable then expansions could be done to add more worlds and larger ships. The possibilities are endless
Electronic Arts had an online game called Earth & Beyond. In the game a player would create a character (very similar to SIMS) and design a starship (based on three different versions of hull shape, wings, colour, etc). Each character had their own starship although you could join with other players and fly around as a squadron. A real benefit if the lead had a fast ship. A character would have three different experience areas; combat, exploration and trade. The more you traded the higher your trade would go. Each area max'd at lvl 50. Each character had skills which would allow you to run better wpns, engines, trade for a higher profit, etc.
It dealt with space travel using Nav points (when in system) and star gates (between systems).
Most movement was done in your starship. You could dock at a starport and your character could walk around the starport and buy and sell items at various shops. The starports also had job listings, where you could get a job taking cargo to a specific starport, get paid out and then look for another job. It was a great game (it's no longer supported by EA but there is a players movement to emulate the game).
The Traveller Universe would be an ideal MMORG. A player could be a loner and do his own thing or join a group and head off to raid.
If a MMORG was to be created it could probably start small (subsector) with small player ships. If the game proves profitable then expansions could be done to add more worlds and larger ships. The possibilities are endless
Kursgishishi
SOC-2
Case in point.
Poster of my old Earth & Beyond character;
Kurgishishi, a Terran Tradesman
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/chaos_lord_arioch/Poster01.jpg
that Starship logged many a AU's.
Poster of my old Earth & Beyond character;
Kurgishishi, a Terran Tradesman
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/chaos_lord_arioch/Poster01.jpg
that Starship logged many a AU's.
WW2 online has some nice concepts which could be imported by way of an engine:
multicrewing vehicles is possible (or in our case starships). Although once you are vehicle crew you can't jump out of the vehicle, you can only do that if you are riding as a passenger (in a DC3 or on a tank, truck etc).
A Huge play area - now not uncommon with MMORPGs but you have to play off the size of the terrain against making it so big you never actually meet any other PCs.
The biggest problem is with Traveller or any MMORPG is that Travellers/Adventurers are meant to be the minority of the population but in MMORPGs they are the majority which just makes the world unbelievable.
This is why WW2 online works so well: the situation demands everyone is a serviceman and that is what the players want to be.
At the end of the day I think that a traveller computer game would only really work as a single player adventure game - elite with frills with perhaps a sort of mechwarrior type plot.
Ravs
multicrewing vehicles is possible (or in our case starships). Although once you are vehicle crew you can't jump out of the vehicle, you can only do that if you are riding as a passenger (in a DC3 or on a tank, truck etc).
A Huge play area - now not uncommon with MMORPGs but you have to play off the size of the terrain against making it so big you never actually meet any other PCs.
The biggest problem is with Traveller or any MMORPG is that Travellers/Adventurers are meant to be the minority of the population but in MMORPGs they are the majority which just makes the world unbelievable.
This is why WW2 online works so well: the situation demands everyone is a serviceman and that is what the players want to be.
At the end of the day I think that a traveller computer game would only really work as a single player adventure game - elite with frills with perhaps a sort of mechwarrior type plot.
Ravs
That's a lot of AI NPCs robject...not sure how that would work.
But then...thinking out of the box a little bit. What about a cooperative multiplayer (in the sense that you play online but only say up to 10 of you play together) it will be like a single player game (with all the attendant missions etc) but which a small group could play. That might work.
Ravs
But then...thinking out of the box a little bit. What about a cooperative multiplayer (in the sense that you play online but only say up to 10 of you play together) it will be like a single player game (with all the attendant missions etc) but which a small group could play. That might work.
Ravs
guys, obviously the game world would have to allow for certain aspects for playability. Yes, Traveller PCs are supposed to be at the end of middle of their life spans and there are some concerns about AIs and all the interactive NPCs.
I think the most important thing would be to design worlds that allow players to take control of the game environment to some extent and build up their personal goals, yes having soooo many PCs will be very unlike Traveller but the other PCs are really just unpredictable NPCs.
There is a lot of fun that can take place on a planet, I believe the key would be to include a mass quest/faction interactive world for the planets and cities giving persons reasons perhaps not to travel in their own starships. Now, granted many ppl would like to go into space, like me.
I appreciate the feed back let's keep it going...
starflash
I think the most important thing would be to design worlds that allow players to take control of the game environment to some extent and build up their personal goals, yes having soooo many PCs will be very unlike Traveller but the other PCs are really just unpredictable NPCs.
There is a lot of fun that can take place on a planet, I believe the key would be to include a mass quest/faction interactive world for the planets and cities giving persons reasons perhaps not to travel in their own starships. Now, granted many ppl would like to go into space, like me.
I appreciate the feed back let's keep it going...
starflash
Kursgishishi
SOC-2
A Traveller MMORG would have to start small, A couple systems with a number of starports and cities, the big question would be what time period would one use? 1100? milieu 0?
Personally I think if a game was to be successful you would have to draw more people into the game. If the timeline was too far advanced there would be a huge amount of history for beginners to absorb. If the game started some time after the first Terran contact with the Viliani then it would begin simple enough. ????
Personally I think if a game was to be successful you would have to draw more people into the game. If the timeline was too far advanced there would be a huge amount of history for beginners to absorb. If the game started some time after the first Terran contact with the Viliani then it would begin simple enough. ????
Wow, I think the time period would be way down the priority list. It's how you credibly populate such a huge universe which would be at the top of my 'problems' list. I suppose you could use the NPC model of 'Eldar Scrolls' - the villagers there were quite talkative. Merchants could be pretty standard menu driven types.
Lol...it would have to avoid 'spawn camping' a la Everquest. Lots of ships in space waiting for that Zhodani to spawn. Oh...and pulling a train. Although come to think of it, that's what Mal did with the Reavers in Serenity to good dramatic effect. Must have been some knowing chuckles from online RPG players when that happened.
Ravs
Lol...it would have to avoid 'spawn camping' a la Everquest. Lots of ships in space waiting for that Zhodani to spawn. Oh...and pulling a train. Although come to think of it, that's what Mal did with the Reavers in Serenity to good dramatic effect. Must have been some knowing chuckles from online RPG players when that happened.
Ravs
Huge Play Area/Fractal World Design. As mentioned earlier, tools already exist which can detail worlds and settlements quite well.
Adventures. I suppose people will have things to do, right? Some can trade, some can explore, some can build, some can be pirates, some can patrol, but there also needs to be quests, don't there?
NPC Population. With a home location, work location, and career type, every NPC could be different to some degree. Reaction "rolls" and knowledge can be inferred from ID and location. But... I suspect most NPCs will not be interesting to players, even if they're given their own identities. I think therefore that there can be classes of "background" NPCs who live a simple, scripted life, with the only variables being assigned are when they're created. They have low CPU demand, only changing state a few times per "day", and only interacting when spoken to. They have low memory demand, maybe ten bytes each.
Most flatlander NPCs are the interface by which PCs gain service and information. Services, moreover, can be usually tied to a location. So information and service is owned by something larger than an NPC, and specific kinds of NPCs at specific locations can tap into a subset of that information or provide that service.
Really, the types of services and information available to a player are extremely limited. Information is just a factoid that certain NPCs can spill under the right circumstances. Similarly with services.
So to some degree, it almost doesn't matter that the NPC who's serving food at Brubek's isn't the same guy who was there the night before. Of course he has a name -- and that can be hashed on demand or stored in a database -- but he's not "real" unless he's needed for something more.
Which brings me to another point. All NPCs can start out without even a unique ID, just simply exist at a location. Those which are required to grow can then gain an entry in successively more detailed tables. I'd say 99% of all NPCs won't, ever, but any of them could.
Time Period. It probably won't even matter. It will be "classic" Traveller with a small c, most likely.
Spawn Camping. How would this be fixed?
Well, spawning would probably have to exist somehow -- consider that pirates would take advantage of poorly-patrolled trade lanes and thrive unless regularly beaten down.
But also, players could go up against other players. What if a player chooses to be a pirate, or worse, a Zhodani? Now you've got players skulking around the Marches in a black-globe-fitted Shivvas, and other players skulking around in black-globe-fitted Kinunirs, playing a game of cat-and-mouse. In that case, spawning is only icing on the cake, instead of the Big Thing. And really, spawn pools do seem to be poor things to rely on for fun.
Jump Delay. Whether or not you think "No jump means no Traveller", an online game is not made for people who like to wait. It's made for compulsives and action-oriented people, more than introspective, reclusive types. It would have to change, probably into an economic cost, with little or no delay. I'd prefer a short delay. In fact, I'd like to be about to log-out in jumpspace, nice and safe, then log back in later and precipitate out. But I think that's only a minor thing.
Adventures. I suppose people will have things to do, right? Some can trade, some can explore, some can build, some can be pirates, some can patrol, but there also needs to be quests, don't there?
NPC Population. With a home location, work location, and career type, every NPC could be different to some degree. Reaction "rolls" and knowledge can be inferred from ID and location. But... I suspect most NPCs will not be interesting to players, even if they're given their own identities. I think therefore that there can be classes of "background" NPCs who live a simple, scripted life, with the only variables being assigned are when they're created. They have low CPU demand, only changing state a few times per "day", and only interacting when spoken to. They have low memory demand, maybe ten bytes each.
Most flatlander NPCs are the interface by which PCs gain service and information. Services, moreover, can be usually tied to a location. So information and service is owned by something larger than an NPC, and specific kinds of NPCs at specific locations can tap into a subset of that information or provide that service.
Really, the types of services and information available to a player are extremely limited. Information is just a factoid that certain NPCs can spill under the right circumstances. Similarly with services.
So to some degree, it almost doesn't matter that the NPC who's serving food at Brubek's isn't the same guy who was there the night before. Of course he has a name -- and that can be hashed on demand or stored in a database -- but he's not "real" unless he's needed for something more.
Which brings me to another point. All NPCs can start out without even a unique ID, just simply exist at a location. Those which are required to grow can then gain an entry in successively more detailed tables. I'd say 99% of all NPCs won't, ever, but any of them could.
Time Period. It probably won't even matter. It will be "classic" Traveller with a small c, most likely.
Spawn Camping. How would this be fixed?
Well, spawning would probably have to exist somehow -- consider that pirates would take advantage of poorly-patrolled trade lanes and thrive unless regularly beaten down.
But also, players could go up against other players. What if a player chooses to be a pirate, or worse, a Zhodani? Now you've got players skulking around the Marches in a black-globe-fitted Shivvas, and other players skulking around in black-globe-fitted Kinunirs, playing a game of cat-and-mouse. In that case, spawning is only icing on the cake, instead of the Big Thing. And really, spawn pools do seem to be poor things to rely on for fun.
Jump Delay. Whether or not you think "No jump means no Traveller", an online game is not made for people who like to wait. It's made for compulsives and action-oriented people, more than introspective, reclusive types. It would have to change, probably into an economic cost, with little or no delay. I'd prefer a short delay. In fact, I'd like to be about to log-out in jumpspace, nice and safe, then log back in later and precipitate out. But I think that's only a minor thing.
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