Mongoose - traveller returns

[Roger Calver]

Starship construction is one of the main parts of Traveller and so having it not included would IMHO be a mistake.

OK I could see something like the High Guard type of ships being in a supplemnt yes but there should be the rules to allow gamers to makes upto 1000 ton ships like that in CT book 2.

 

[Flynn]

Heh. In my initial outline for the game, I listed the six core subsystems we'd need to get right for the core book, and it's almost exactly the same as your list there (I folded encounters and animals into 'personal combat and encounters'. While the final contents of the SRD will be out of my hands, I'd be very surprised if it didn't include everything on that list in some form.

Take a look at the Runequest SRD (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/detail.php?qsID=1180&qsSeries=39), which should give you some idea of how much stuff will be made available.

EDIT: Actually, there's a non-zero chance that ship design would be spun off into a supplement. The main book would have stats and rules for flying and modifying basic ships, but the meat of the design rules would be in a supplement. It'll depend on what level of complexity we end up using for ships.

Thanks for the feedback, Mytholder. It is greatly appreciated.

I do hope that, if the ship design system is moved into a separate supplement, that the rules are made OGL when they are released. Part of the fun of Traveller products are the ship books, and not having a system available to build them for third-party work seems... well, you get the picture.

Thanks,
Flynn

 

[aramis]

Ob "RTT":
I want a roll-high task system using a fixed number of dice for every task roll. I don't care if it's 2d or 3d.

I want T&C to look like T20's Trade and Commerce, perhaps with a different means of obtaining what goods are in the lot, but prices determined by what's in the lot.


Ob Star Frontiers:
The site with the scans was licensed by WOTC as the official support site. Several others have taken up the torch. http://www.starfrontiersman.com/ has "digitally remastered" the rulebooks... to good effect.

 

[Mytholder]

I do hope that, if the ship design system is moved into a separate supplement, that the rules are made OGL when they are released. Part of the fun of Traveller products are the ship books, and not having a system available to build them for third-party work seems... well, you get the picture.

Oh, yeah, I'm pretty sure they'll be OGLed regardless of how they're eventually published.

 

[erisred]

I'd rather not start a new topic and I'm going to disagree with you about it being so off-topic.

Since my last post, I thought a bit about Star Frontiers and Space Opera, and asked myself why those two games haven't had the same popularity as Traveller. One of the differences that immediately came to mind is accessibility and organization. Taking a look at this could help with RTT.

For every design sequence in CT, there was a checklist given with the tables for that design sequence. By having a checklist, a new player could go through combat, worldbuilding, animal creation, character generation, starship construction, and trade & commerce step by step (like a cookbook) and teach themselves the rules of the game. This made CT extremely accessible for those unfamiliar with the rules and allowed them to learn them quickly.

Just a thought, mind you.

Those checklists were, and are, a great way for new and casual players to be able to do things. Very under rated feature, IMO.

 

[whartung]

Can someone clarify this "OGL" stuff and a quick summary about being "in" or "out" of the "OGL", and what the ramifications are?

 

[aramis]

OGL = Open Gaming License
In OGL/Open: material in OGL status is material others may use royalty free simply by listing original source credit. They can use it as is, modify it, or even make subtle tweaks in just punctuation... It's Open Source material, so it's fair to use with just an attribution of source.
Out OGL/Non-OGL/Closed: Material which is not released for others use. It is material that the author has chosen to keep his copyright rights over.

SRD: System Reference Document. A document with only the open source material and the mandatory license to use the open source materials under the Open Gaming License released by WOTC. It can be just the changes, or all the open content material of the referenced system.
Currently known (by me) ones out there: D20 3.0, D20 3.5, D20 Modern, D20 Future, D20 Anime, D20 Superheroes, Runquest, Runequest Companion, Runequest Monsters, OSRIC. I know there are more, but I don't know the specifics.

STL: System Trademark License. The separate license to use the system trademark(s). D20 has three separate STL's available. THe OGL in a d20 trademark, which simply requires you have complied with the OGL, and are not producing smut, and still use the 1d20 die roll... The D20 STL, which says you can't include certain elements of the SRD, even though they are open content, and must say "Require the use of a core rulebook by Wizards of the Coast." Since these two licenses are "Automatic if complied to" they are pretty fair game for a variety of uses.

And, of course, the D&D STL, which actually is a series of separate licenses, each with custom terms, and various restrictions, all of which are in non-renewal by WOTC's choice.

The Ramifications?

Anyone who chooses can make a product that is compatible with any OGL SRD.

So... Given the Mongoose RQ SRD, I can rewrite my own version of RuneQuest, and rename it "WilPlay100", and sell it. I could do so with as little as repaginating, and filling in the missing elements. Or, I could take as little of it as I want, slap it together with the D20 SRD, and probably make a Palladium Work Alike, and establish, by use of open source "boilerplate" that I'm not infringing on Mr. Simbieda's copyrights.

One extreme of the OGL is OSRIC. It takes the D20 SRD, and modifies it to the point that it's 99% (estimate) compatible with AD&D, and about 20% compatible with d20. Since it uses NO AD&D text, save what filtered through the SRD's, it's a fairly safe use (abuse, even) of the OGL. Since there was demand for more AD&D 1E materials, and for replacement rulebooks, the OSRIC SRD provides almost all the classes and rules needed to play something Almost Exactly Like AD&D 1E. Many monsters names changed, a few are missing, and a couple classes are missing, but all in all, if you need a new PH, download, print and home-bind up a copy of OSRIC, and you're good to go. Since the wordings vary, it's not quite the same, but it is sure darned close.

Castles and Crusades takes the D20 SRD and does a very different approach... C&C plays differently from AD&D, stock D20 (aka D&D 3.0/3.5), and many others, but being as simple as it is, allows using AD&D, D20, and other OGL20 games' adventures and bestiaries with little to no changes.

T20 Traveller morphs parts of CT and parts of D20 together to make a very playable game, with elements familiar to D20 players, but a feel that is VERY traveller. Except for character stats, it's very much Traveller.

True20 takes the D20 SRD, and thins in down quite a bit, and streamlines it for a "lighter rules" approach.

Basic Fantasy provides yet another adaptation of D20, this time to a level of simplicity equivalent to the old Basic/Expert D&D boxes. It isn't a "compatible" ruleset, though, just a very comparable one. Essentially D20 light.

Mongoose took D20 and morphed it into several very different games, all of which are still D20 games, but each of which uses rules differences to highlight setting material elements for very different feels: Judge Dredd, Conan, Bab5, Starship Troopers.

For Traveller:
The SRD and OGL status will mean you can rework it to your own custom setting, with custom tables and all, and rename it and release it. Depending upon the STL terms, you might even be able to label it "Compatible With Traveller"

Don't like the T&C rules? Write a supplement with your own.
Don't like the specific details of table XYZ, write a patched version, and sell it for $1 on DTRPG... and include those chunks needed to make sense of it in rework, too.

Why OGL?
To basically encourage a shared build up of material, from which one can cull the best versions for one's own works without having to negotiate to avoid litigation. By publishing using OGL material, one agrees to identify and relase one's own OGL material in the same product or in a freely available separate SRD. Further, one's already released it to the public domain, so any one can use it.

It also helps to encourage 3rd party developers to use one's system, since they don't have to pay to make compatible materials.

 

[Berg]

Nice writeup, Aramis

 

[tbeard1999]

OGL = Open Gaming License
In OGL/Open: material in OGL status is material others may use royalty free simply by listing original source credit. <snip>
Why OGL?
To basically encourage a shared build up of material, from which one can cull the best versions for one's own works without having to negotiate to avoid litigation. By publishing using OGL material, one agrees to identify and relase one's own OGL material in the same product or in a freely available separate SRD. Further, one's already released it to the public domain, so any one can use it.

It also helps to encourage 3rd party developers to use one's system, since they don't have to pay to make compatible materials.

Excellent summary of the advantages of the OGL. However, one of the most important advantages (for businesses anyhow) is the fact that the OGL is a "safe harbor" that removes all doubt about copyright/trademark infringement. Ideas cannot be copyrighted, but their expression can. This glib statement has proven difficult to apply in the Real World. Thus, business were unsure as to just how much they could take from (say) AD&D without infringeing on TSR/WOTC intellectual property. And even if a defendant ultimately won, the cost of fighting might put him out of business.

So the OGL is a "safe harbor". In theory, it gives you very few additional rights. But in practice, it gives you a precious commodity -- *assurance* that you won't be liable for copyright infringement.

In my opinion, the OGL -- and the willingness to embrace it -- saved RPGs and might well have given them another generation of life.

 

[Gallowglacht]

In my opinion, the OGL -- and the willingness to embrace it -- saved RPGs and might well have given them another generation of life.

Quoted for truth (at least as I see it)

 

[hunter]

So the OGL is a "safe harbor". In theory, it gives you very few additional rights. But in practice, it gives you a precious commodity -- *assurance* that you won't be liable for copyright infringement.

Not really. The OGL offers no protections from being sued or that you would win a case. In fact, it can get you into trouble pretty easily if you assume that everything listed as OGL in a product is actually OGL. You do not know that for a fact. Someone may have listed that part of their product is OGL when in fact they did not have the legal right to designate it as such. If you then reuse that material, the OGL gives you no protection.

 

[Ptah]

Oddly enough, Star Frontiers has been declared "Open Source" by WotC and is available for free download. Fantasy Games Unlimited is still around, and you can still order hardcopy Space Opera material from them (I admit, I ordered some. Hate the game system, but I love the Jeff Dee artwork in the books).

So true re Space Opera, but the home world classification scheme is hands down the best and most concise I've ever seen. Your home world has a lesser axial tilt and is on the edge of the ecosphere, they have a nice description for it.

 

[Ptah]

Excellent summary of the advantages of the OGL. However, one of the most important advantages (for businesses anyhow) is the fact that the OGL is a "safe harbor" that removes all doubt about copyright/trademark infringement. Ideas cannot be copyrighted, but their expression can. This glib statement has proven difficult to apply in the Real World. Thus, business were unsure as to just how much they could take from (say) AD&D without infringeing on TSR/WOTC intellectual property. And even if a defendant ultimately won, the cost of fighting might put him out of business.

So the OGL is a "safe harbor". In theory, it gives you very few additional rights. But in practice, it gives you a precious commodity -- *assurance* that you won't be liable for copyright infringement.

In my opinion, the OGL -- and the willingness to embrace it -- saved RPGs and might well have given them another generation of life.

QFT, I've often questioned the need for such a thing besides assurance. You can't copyright or trademark rules and saying "compatible with...." is generally OK if true and you don't infringe trademark. So there should be no need for an OGL, but alas most RPG companies don't feel they can afford a reasoned opinion of counsel from a high-end firm.

 

[aramis]

Moreover, few lawyers are willing to handle cases on subjects that they do not know.

THe few who do know RPG's seem unwilling to go near the OGL... (Specifically Dave Kenzer, for one.)

Now, the legal theory is that the end user of unlawfully released material is not laible for the losses incurred, but must stop using the material upon notice (as happened with the GIF file format) or secure valid license; the person who released it unlawfully is liable for all the losses. Now, the courts might not handle it that way. So document, document, document!

Keep copies of the SRD's you pulled from, preferably in sealed, signed-across-the-flap-edge, postmarked envelopes, which you mailed to yourself.

Seriously, it's no safe harbor. It's an automatic license, which is still dangerous turf, since no serious challenges have occurred... yet.

 

[Nightshade]

Wow! I really don't like the idea of mongoose controlling any Traveller products. Just because they produce a lot of supplements for a lot of games doesn't mean they put out quality products. Like many of us, being a gamer since the friggin 70's, I value quality product. I like QLI's artwork in their products. I wouldn't be able to buy a Traveller supplement (or new rules set -ghaag) with one of those gaudy bright colored covers that Mongoose has on some of its supplements. I either want clean art (aka the cover of the T20 rulebook) or pen and ink. Of course I'm a big Erol Otus fan too.

The idea of another rules set.... oh, lord, I think I'm gonna hurl. 'Nuf said. I won't buy it. Even D&D has only been through a few incarnations: original (little brown books), Basic D&D (it went through a couple of editions and died), Advanced, 2nd Edition, and now 3.0 to 3.5 BUT its the industry giant. I'm not gonna buy another rules set. I can expand T20 as I want to and I have lots of CT, MT, and TNE material to work with.

T20 is the system to go with because it works off of a rules set that most publishers want a piece of, the OGL/d20 system. My players know and play d20.

I think I have all of QLI's products at least on PDF. Maybe not 1248 though. I love the QLI product.

I'm very opinionated on this topic and I don't expect most people to agree with me.

 

[Jame]

I agree, Nightshade, but with the proviso that I plan to actually read MongTrav before I disparage it.

 

[Echo]

Well, I'd argue that Mongoose did a brilliant, bang up job with bringing back Paranoia. Indeed, Mongoose's Paranoia (XP) was comfortably the best edition they ever did!

Mongoose RuneQuest had a few other issues, but they did listen to the complaints and adjust accordingly. I expect the upcoming RuneQuest Deluxe to be a great product.

I can understand that people will be concerned over Mongoose making mistakes in the past, but they do earnestly try to do the best by fans and listen to them. Give them a chance, and they could end up producing the best version of Traveller ever, too!

 

[Echo]

Well, so much for my faith in Mongoose!

Apparently, there will be no hexadecimal UPPs and Skills will range from 1-15, equal to Stat ranges.

It's not for me, on that basis, but I'll leave the information for y'all to consider.

 

[Flynn]

Apparently, there will be no hexadecimal UPPs and Skills will range from 1-15, equal to Stat ranges..

Upon what do you base this pronouncement? I haven't seen that information yet. A link would be greatly appreciated. Please?

Thanks,
Flynn

 

[Echo]

I have been in a forum discussion involving the lead Mong Trav designer ("Mythholder") on rpg.net. He's just announced it. I am 'TrippyHippy' on RPG.net.

It's on the last few pages of the "[Mongoose Traveller] What do interested non-fans want to see?" thread.

It kinda killed the 'debate' stone dead too.

Link is here:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=348380&page=16