Mothballed ships; decommissioning
- Thread starter stofsk
- Start date
Spaceships are anagolous to aircraft as well as marine ships.
How many F-16's, B-52's and a load of other obsolete planes do the USAF keep mothballed in the desert.
How many MiG-29's have been bought by adventure flying clubs? (Ok, not many, but I can see smaller vessels being bought up by enthusiasts and clubs in the OTU).
Given that the Imperium supports and even possibly subsidises 'free trade' many smaller vessels, especially transport and tender craft, might be sold at discount or even given to fledgling merchant lines or for use as subbies.
The margins for trade are low but the Imperium absolutely depends on lots of goods being traded back and forth. Many worlds would cease to exist without trade. IMO there'd be a constant shortage of viable merchant craft. There may be a proliferation of type A's and type R's, but even tens of thousands of these aren't going to keep a sector running smoothly.
Think of how many tons of shipping and airfreight go around the world today, on a single planet with about 6 billion sophonts. In a sector with say 400 billion sophonts, how many tons of freight per week is that likely to be?
I'd say obsolete vessels that aren't going to colonial fleets or put in a strategic reserve will immediately be pressed into service as freighters. Especially considering that most of these vessels could strip out half their fuel tanks for cargo and still do jump 2.
How many F-16's, B-52's and a load of other obsolete planes do the USAF keep mothballed in the desert.
How many MiG-29's have been bought by adventure flying clubs? (Ok, not many, but I can see smaller vessels being bought up by enthusiasts and clubs in the OTU).
Given that the Imperium supports and even possibly subsidises 'free trade' many smaller vessels, especially transport and tender craft, might be sold at discount or even given to fledgling merchant lines or for use as subbies.
The margins for trade are low but the Imperium absolutely depends on lots of goods being traded back and forth. Many worlds would cease to exist without trade. IMO there'd be a constant shortage of viable merchant craft. There may be a proliferation of type A's and type R's, but even tens of thousands of these aren't going to keep a sector running smoothly.
Think of how many tons of shipping and airfreight go around the world today, on a single planet with about 6 billion sophonts. In a sector with say 400 billion sophonts, how many tons of freight per week is that likely to be?
I'd say obsolete vessels that aren't going to colonial fleets or put in a strategic reserve will immediately be pressed into service as freighters. Especially considering that most of these vessels could strip out half their fuel tanks for cargo and still do jump 2.
The Iowa class battleships (US Navy) either are still in service, or were until a few years ago. They were launched in 1943, IIRC. Even if they were retired recently, that´s still almost 60 years of active service.
If we include ships in reserve, I think several other WW2 capital ships are still held in reserve today. The USS Oriskany, which was recently sunk, used to be one of them IIRC, and I think it entered active service in 1950. The others are several Essex class carriers (entered service between 1943 and 1950). Also, the USS North Carolina in Wilmington NC, IIRC one other similar battleship in the state it was named for (the USS Washington?), and the USS Intrepid(?) in New York are "preserved", whatever that means exactly, so it might be possible to reactivate them. I doubt the USS Intrepid could fly modern jet planes, but she´d still be useful for helicopters and V/STOL aircraft.
@Klaus:
Right... old warships can be sold/leased, intact or stripped, depending on who gets them - maybe with a clause in the contract that the recipient must hand them back over to the Navy in case of war (in case of a lease, especially intact ships), or that the Navy can buy them back if they want to (to refit them as warships, in case of trouble brewing).
In fact, the Scout Service has a very similar arrangement with surplus Scout/Courier vessels and its "retired" employees.
Also, maybe slightly OT, AFAIK in the real world the US government helps finance cargo aircraft and in return, these aircraft (and their crews) are turned over the the Air Force as additional transport assets. I can see an arrangement like this being very popular in the Imperium, too, for people who want to buy a Free Trader or Subbie.
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
Sorry mate, they don't count for the prize. All Iowas were decommissioned by 1992. New Jersey (decommissioned in 91) had the longest service, 48 years. The Sao Paolo beats that hands down and the Argentinian Murature class has been on the go 60 years this year.
Going back to the topic of mathballed starships, I feel that Michael has the best points about how its done: you wind up with a basic hull, power plant and drive assemblies, and little else pumped with nitrogen or a noble gas, perhaps.
This then raises the point of where the ships are stored. In parking orbit around a remote planet in a remote system? Or perhaps, given the Tech Level of the Imperium, inside a hollowed-out asteroid?
Either way, that could serve as an adventure hook: a band of less than law-abiding PCs try to sneak in and activate an old cruiser or something.
This then raises the point of where the ships are stored. In parking orbit around a remote planet in a remote system? Or perhaps, given the Tech Level of the Imperium, inside a hollowed-out asteroid?
Either way, that could serve as an adventure hook: a band of less than law-abiding PCs try to sneak in and activate an old cruiser or something.
As for HMS Victory, technically she is still in commission but according to the history program "BAttlefield Detectives" there is not a single original component from Nelsons time left. About the only thing still from that period was a battle damaged sail. What was interesting is that they found a disassembled vessel dating from some years after, still basically a napoleonic era RN vessel. The timbers were not in goo enough condition to reassemble but it showed how it could be done.
As for the designs from Shattered Ships they work quite well when redesigned for the TNE era using FF&S1. But try not to serve on a Tigress, the surface area available is so small that they cannot carry EM masking systems (ie they show up really well on sensors)
As for the designs from Shattered Ships they work quite well when redesigned for the TNE era using FF&S1. But try not to serve on a Tigress, the surface area available is so small that they cannot carry EM masking systems (ie they show up really well on sensors)
The B-52's bring up an interesting side-line with 'mothballing' vessels - unintended consequences of 'trivial' changes...
The fuel tanks on these planes were sealed up by Boeing in the 60's (for the most recent airframes) with materials 'designed' to last 20 years.
About 5 years ago (IIRC) the Air Force changed the water-scavenger they use to prevent ice from forming in the tanks at high altitude. SURPRISE! the new de-icing fluid REMOVES the coatings from the inside of the fuel tanks! Engines started to 'flame-out' during missions as the coating-turned-gunk clogged up fuel pumps and filters; now the AF is engaged in a program to qualify new materials for these planes that won't dissolve.
SO - picture your poor players 'restoring' an old hulk found mothballed (or perhaps just adrift in a belt somewhere...), only to find that 20 years ago the 'standard' waste-digesting culture for the life support units was changed to something that eats up the seals on the older vessels (and of course, the hulk never got the retrofit for compatability...)
The fuel tanks on these planes were sealed up by Boeing in the 60's (for the most recent airframes) with materials 'designed' to last 20 years.
About 5 years ago (IIRC) the Air Force changed the water-scavenger they use to prevent ice from forming in the tanks at high altitude. SURPRISE! the new de-icing fluid REMOVES the coatings from the inside of the fuel tanks! Engines started to 'flame-out' during missions as the coating-turned-gunk clogged up fuel pumps and filters; now the AF is engaged in a program to qualify new materials for these planes that won't dissolve.
SO - picture your poor players 'restoring' an old hulk found mothballed (or perhaps just adrift in a belt somewhere...), only to find that 20 years ago the 'standard' waste-digesting culture for the life support units was changed to something that eats up the seals on the older vessels (and of course, the hulk never got the retrofit for compatability...)
Player Dave: “What is that hissing sound?”
Computer: There is an emergency going on, There is an emergency going on…it’s still going on
Player Dave: “Holly what the H@11 is going on?!”
Computer: All the seals in the atmospheric system appear to be breaking down. Pressure loss imminent. You are all going to die Dave, everybody.
Dave: “Everybody?”
Computer: Yes Dave, everybody.
Dave: Oh SMEG!
Computer: There is an emergency going on, There is an emergency going on…it’s still going on
Player Dave: “Holly what the H@11 is going on?!”
Computer: All the seals in the atmospheric system appear to be breaking down. Pressure loss imminent. You are all going to die Dave, everybody.
Dave: “Everybody?”
Computer: Yes Dave, everybody.
Dave: Oh SMEG!
The Victory and Constitution are approximately the same age and both are kept in commission, complete with crews, captains, etc., but the Victory hasn't left it's dock in decades while the Constitution leaves it's docks and either sails around Boston Harbor or even goes on tour.
Both ships probably don't have a single original part left in them, what with repairs and maintainence over the years but I like the way Terry Pratchett says it in one of the Discworld books. The dwarf king shows off his family axe that has been in the family for generations, the same axe now as in the beginning, even though sometimes the head had to be replaced or the haft but it was still the same axe.
According to the book, a ship mortgage is about 40 years and so it must be able to last that long with regular maintainence without a problem. Then to say that simply because the mortgage was paid off, the ship becomes automatically worthless is ridiculous. I would imagine that it could last another 20 years easily with regular maintainence and 20 more years at doubling of maintaince costs every 10 years.
Military ships are much harder to quantify for maintainence costs but I would imagine that they should follow the same general formula. 40 years at regular maintainence costs, easily helped by large crews with a need for something to do. 20 more years with a doubled maintainence cost andthen handing it down to a smaller navy or system defense monitor. Just rip out the jump drives or mothball them and you have a nasty surprise waiting for anybody jumping in.
Both ships probably don't have a single original part left in them, what with repairs and maintainence over the years but I like the way Terry Pratchett says it in one of the Discworld books. The dwarf king shows off his family axe that has been in the family for generations, the same axe now as in the beginning, even though sometimes the head had to be replaced or the haft but it was still the same axe.
According to the book, a ship mortgage is about 40 years and so it must be able to last that long with regular maintainence without a problem. Then to say that simply because the mortgage was paid off, the ship becomes automatically worthless is ridiculous. I would imagine that it could last another 20 years easily with regular maintainence and 20 more years at doubling of maintaince costs every 10 years.
Military ships are much harder to quantify for maintainence costs but I would imagine that they should follow the same general formula. 40 years at regular maintainence costs, easily helped by large crews with a need for something to do. 20 more years with a doubled maintainence cost andthen handing it down to a smaller navy or system defense monitor. Just rip out the jump drives or mothball them and you have a nasty surprise waiting for anybody jumping in.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Some ship dates:
U2540 "Wilhelm Bauer", a Series XXI submarine was build in 1944, sunk by the own crew in 45, raised and repaired in 57 and used as a test submarine by the german navy until 1982 for a 25 years continuous service (The Iowas where in-active most of the time) The sub is currently afloat in Bremerhaven.
Class 205 submarines where produced starting 1967, the units are currently phased out after up to 36 years of continous service, some of the 206 class boats from the mid-1970s are still in service
Some of the US Balao-class submarines build in the 1940s served until the early 70s
U2540 "Wilhelm Bauer", a Series XXI submarine was build in 1944, sunk by the own crew in 45, raised and repaired in 57 and used as a test submarine by the german navy until 1982 for a 25 years continuous service (The Iowas where in-active most of the time) The sub is currently afloat in Bremerhaven.
Class 205 submarines where produced starting 1967, the units are currently phased out after up to 36 years of continous service, some of the 206 class boats from the mid-1970s are still in service
Some of the US Balao-class submarines build in the 1940s served until the early 70s
Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
The USS Constitution is still considered an Active Duty warship by the American Navy, even though it hasn't been used in a conflict since 1776. A ship that old would be more of a historical artifact than an actual fighting vessel.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Ok, just in case they refit the Mary Rose 
, the oldest post HMS Dreadnought warship (the 1906 one ).
, the oldest post HMS Dreadnought warship (the 1906 one ).Just a few comments on various posts:
- It seems vacuum welding isn't nearly as bad or as prevelant as first surmised. There was an article in SciAm concerning a few years back. Our concerns over it have been driven more by science fiction than science fact, it was one of those 'nifty' items authors loved to parrot.
- USS Constitution was launched in 1797, a bit too late to fight in the Revolution. The last tiem she sailed as an active unit in the USN was in 1881 as a training vessel for midshipmen. Other than her annual "turn arounds" - she's moved away from her pier, turned, and moored again for weathering reasons - the last time she sailed under her own power was 1997. She moved a few scant miles using six sails. Whoop-de-doo.
- HMS Victory had a far longer active career. She was launched 1765 and served as an active ship-of-the-line until 1812. She was finally drydocked, something that will also happen to CONSTITUTION eventually, in 1922.
- Several minor navies have or had long serving warships. These ships usually had a career in a major navy first and then another in a minor navy. ARA General Belgrano for example began life as an USN CL USS Pheonix in 1935. As PHEONIX she was present at Pearl Harbor attack. After being decommissioned and sold to the Argies in 1951 for a small fee, she continued to serve that navy until HMS Conqueror reminded the Argies what a real navy can do.
- The Type XXI U-boats were shoddily built, untested, pieces of crap. They didn't cause any existing Western desings to be outdated, instead they were outdated themselves. Their postwar reputation is far greater than their actual worth. The US examined those it recieved, found them to be lacking compared to the subs already on hand, and sank the hulls they had by 1947. The UK operated one boat for a few years but found the RN subs they already had were better. France operated several for over a decade because they needed a ready made navy. Anyone wanting more information can read Clay Blair's two volume Hitler's U-boat. Seeing as Balir participated in the USN examination of the Type XXIs I'll take his word over the claims of any weapons wonk revisionists decades after the fact.
Have fun,
Bill
- It seems vacuum welding isn't nearly as bad or as prevelant as first surmised. There was an article in SciAm concerning a few years back. Our concerns over it have been driven more by science fiction than science fact, it was one of those 'nifty' items authors loved to parrot.
- USS Constitution was launched in 1797, a bit too late to fight in the Revolution. The last tiem she sailed as an active unit in the USN was in 1881 as a training vessel for midshipmen. Other than her annual "turn arounds" - she's moved away from her pier, turned, and moored again for weathering reasons - the last time she sailed under her own power was 1997. She moved a few scant miles using six sails. Whoop-de-doo.
- HMS Victory had a far longer active career. She was launched 1765 and served as an active ship-of-the-line until 1812. She was finally drydocked, something that will also happen to CONSTITUTION eventually, in 1922.
- Several minor navies have or had long serving warships. These ships usually had a career in a major navy first and then another in a minor navy. ARA General Belgrano for example began life as an USN CL USS Pheonix in 1935. As PHEONIX she was present at Pearl Harbor attack. After being decommissioned and sold to the Argies in 1951 for a small fee, she continued to serve that navy until HMS Conqueror reminded the Argies what a real navy can do.
- The Type XXI U-boats were shoddily built, untested, pieces of crap. They didn't cause any existing Western desings to be outdated, instead they were outdated themselves. Their postwar reputation is far greater than their actual worth. The US examined those it recieved, found them to be lacking compared to the subs already on hand, and sank the hulls they had by 1947. The UK operated one boat for a few years but found the RN subs they already had were better. France operated several for over a decade because they needed a ready made navy. Anyone wanting more information can read Clay Blair's two volume Hitler's U-boat. Seeing as Balir participated in the USN examination of the Type XXIs I'll take his word over the claims of any weapons wonk revisionists decades after the fact.
Have fun,
Bill
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Aside from the fact that it does not change the service life of U 2540/Wilhelm Bauer and the fact that she was actually well liked by her crews:
+ The US basically copied the concept of the "massive battery box" with the GUPP programs, adding another hull. They also stepped back to a XXI style hull with Nautilus
+ They where the first "true" submarines with far higher underwater speeds and ranges than i.e the US Baleo class of a similar time-frame.
+ Electronics wise the boat was at least equal to any other (Radar, Active/Passiv sonar) and introduced some systems like power-assisted loading systems for torpedos (reloading six tubes in 20 minutes, the system is still used today)
+ The basic hull was quite well liked by a few nations, i.e the Ruskies (Romeo class). It had some problems (Torpedo hatch) that where actually solved by wars end. They had some useless components like the AA turrets (death trap in emergency dives) but no worse than external AA systems
+ Some systems only worked in the (smaller) german boats. I.e the Snorkel was not that useful for the bigger US boats
+ Production quality was so-so due to the building concept. Good boats like 2511 and 2540 where quite solid (2540 survived two collisions during her career)
+ The beast was silent at far higher speeds than say a Type VII. Just ask a certain british cruiser that escaped being sunken by a few hours (wars end)
Michael,
After she had been practically rebuilt.
Baloney. The GUPPY program was on the drawing boards well before the war's end.
Baloney again. As long as they needed to come up for air they are not true submarines. You need a reactor to be a true submarine.
Even more baloney. Read Blair's books. He has a detailed technical decription of the boats the US inspected, found worthless, and scuttled after WW2. The radars were far behind the Allies and the sonars were too, especially considering the US had been using FM sonar for over a year. Habitability was extremely poor. There was also no air conditioning, an absolute necessity if you're going to keep lots of wonderful electronics in working condition aboard.
(It's interesting to note that one of the other 'war winning' U-boats, a Type-XXIII sank a merchant ship one day after Dönitz's ceasefire because it had failed to pick up the broadcast. It seems not that not one radio reciever aboard was in working condition. That's about equal to one other nation's electronics; the USSR.)
I'll spot you the torpedo loading stuff. The US already had a system and improvements in the works. They could have easily borrowed some ideas from what they saw aboard the XXIs. However claiming that postwar Western designs trace their ancestry to the XXIs because of torpedo loading mechanisms is like claiming Humvee and a Rolls-Royce are the same because they both have cigarette lighters.
Yeah, it was copied by those nations who either didn't have submarine designs of their own or had lousy ones.
Again more baloney this flavored by the march of years, wishful thinking, and everyone's love of sea stories.
First, silent running isn't going to help you. Allied aircraft were alreayd using MAD gear. Coastal Command aircraft sank twenty Type-XXI in 1945 as they trained in the Bay of Lubeck or tried to transit to Norway.
Second, U-2511, the only Type XXI to make a war patrol, left Bergen on 30 April 1945 for her first and only war patrol. On 4 May 1945, the captain, Adalbert Schnee, recieved Dönitz's cease fire order and turned for home. A few hours later U-2511 made contact with the British cruiser HMS Norfolk among some other British warships. The boat (supposedly) approached to within 500 meters of the British warship without any sonar contact from the enemy destroyers. Schnee didn't fire naturally, there was a ceasefire on. After (supposedly) closing within 500 meters of HMS Norfolk, Schnee and U-2511 continued on to Bergen arriving there on 5 May 1945.
The only document supporting Schnee's claims is, oddly enough, Schnee's diary. When U-2511's officers and crew were first interned and interrogated none of them mentioned Schnee's approach on HMS Norfolk. It was years afterwards, and only after Schnee's claims became public, that the other members of the crew 'remembered' the event. Not surprisingly none of them remembered it quite the same way as any of the others. Distances vary, even among the plotting crew that supposedly set up mock torpedo attacks. Even the number of approaches vary. Schnee claimed one over minutes, others said several over hours.
All that means somebody is lying.
I have no doubt Schnee spotted and made a approach on HMS Norfolk. I have very serious doubts that U-2511 approached as closely as Schnee claimed.
So you got twenty of your sooper-dooper subs sunk by aircraft balanced against one very dubious claim about approaching to within 500 meters of a RN CA. Whoop-de-doo.
Read Blair's books. They're exhaustively researched; he has TROMS for nearly every U-boat cruise, and pull no punches. He calls a spade a spade no matter what country is involved and he completely destroys the years of fantasy, hyperbole, and plain old jingoism surrounding the Type XXI 'war winning' U-boats.
Have fun,
Bill
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Each one his believes Bill. But let's stay civil and not get in the heat
As for the rest, I stick to what I read on 2540 and the post-war IKL Boats and this link , you stick to your view and that's EOD for me, this gets off-topic.
Oh and the only one who calls the XXI a "supersub" or a "war wining sub" here is one Bill Cameron
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
That depends on whether you count (as some do) the War of 1812 as part of the Revolution. "Old Ironsides" did see action; otherwise, she wouldn't have gotten the nickname. It's a quibble, but you made it sound like she never left the pier to answer the call of the guns.
Michael,
I was civil. I called your claims baloney when I could have called them bullshit.
So now it's the post-war XXI boats and not the wartime versions as your original post suggested? Keep backpedaling.
As for the GUPPY program, the USN had various programs in place to increase the underwater performance of it's submarines before, during, and after war. The GUPPY program was just a continuation of those programs and was not 'sparked' by the Type-XXI as your posts suggested. GUPPY may have used ideas from the Type-XXI but GUPPY used ideas from many sources.
GUPPY wasn't even the only USN program working in this area. Another, concurrent program produced USS Albacore whose hull form, and not the Type-XXI hull form, is the basis of all USN nuclear subs.
You brought it up, I merely refuted it. And I'll stick to my views seeing as you failed to address the other 'whoppers' I called you on:
- Your claims regarding U-2511's mysterious, odd, and still unexplained 'attack' on HMS Norfolk.
- Your claims that WWII submarines where out-dated fifteen minutes after the Allies got their first Typ XXI U-Boot.
The first is still an open question due to the many unanswered questions still surrounding the incident. The second is patent nonsense.
This board has quite a number of naval 'cranks' as Traveller seems to attract them. For instance, in this very thread you can read Fritz' correction and amplification of my post concerning USS Constitution. You simply cannot get away with posting the 'information' you did without someone calling you on it.
Have fun,
Bill
