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New thought about the course of Traveller

I have come to like MgT as a whole, though I have encountered a strong "if you house rule then you aren't playing MgT and since you want to play MgT you can't house rule" faction. (No names. They know who they are.)

Other than that, I would prefer to go with a blend of CT and MgT, whichever setting I choose, for my rules and will play whichever setting I find fun - such as Spica's Outer Veil, 2300AD, or even The New Era.
 
As I wait for art and a book on advanced Oceanography, and clean my office, some thoughts occur to me that may be helpful to some people on Traveller's evolution.

In the 1970s science fiction really was a niche. It was popular, but still a niche. There were enough "on the fence" people who were willing to give the genre a chance, but it didn't have the huge following it does today, nor the sub-niche categories that you can just casually observe in games, conventions, websites and what not.

Therefore, to me, the little black book format made all kinds of sense for publication. I think part of the initial presentation was partially due to fear or hope (depending on your perspective) of technological advancement. That is I'm guessing Traveller was put in the LBB format because A) it was cheaper (no need to pay an artist), and B) if you did put some cover art on it in Year-X, then you ran the risk of dating the book as science and technology progress to Year-Z.

Regardless of setting, I think Traveller is on the right track with Mongoose's presentation of various settings, including the official setting.

I'm still somewhat "up in arms" so to speak about Traveller's leaning towards alleged hard-science in spite of things like jump-drive, Darrien star-trigger, weird looking Imperial battleships (which looks like Pacman to me), and various quirks.

Now, having said all this, I think Traveller can go mainstream. And players and authors alike can properly explore both the official 3I and use the game's ruleset to create adventures that properly tap into a variety of settings; Trek, Star Wars, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, anime genres, Alien films, what have you, in addition to its own inherit official setting.

It's been a long road, and as both a fan, player and author, I think now that science and science fiction has a huge strong healthy following that is essentially mainstream, that guys like me who want to write for games like Traveller, can help share some good material with players and other fans.

Now, if my text book on advanced Oceanography would only get here.................. :frankie:
 
Integration

I see no reason to not integrate the best of each system into a MTU setting.
I can see TNE using T4 and MgT rules sets for task resolution and MT data as a basis for what a system or world had before the collapse as well as a list of ships to encounter during the course of a campaign.
 
I see no reason why T5 couldn't have been the best bits of previous versions, with the makers and technology revisions bolted on ;)

It would have been shorter, clearer, play-tested and ready to use for designing settings.

What I really want to see from the T5 line now is the galaxiad, and definitive versions of each era for play.
 
T5 was published as a monolithic core for Kickstarter value, I think. Even so, it looks like each chapter, and even individual pages, were produced as separate documents in InDesign and then merged into the core. I therefore suspect that smaller, more accessible books and documents can be split out from that core.

Nah, the original Beta CD pretty much had the layout and design already well before kickstarter came along. Even then the promise was a complete and compiled edition. Really it was a bit better what with those nice colour headers and all that.

I think, and this is pure speculation, that Marc was trying for a visual presentation format that would allow for less reading and more playing. Similar to some of the visual guides and for complete idiots books are organized. It's not a bad idea when your ideas are clear.

If I could fix one thing in T5 it would be that the material on the third imperium would be replaced with the actual weapon and ship designs that are iconic to Traveller and a fully developed non-3I sector in which to play.
 
I see no reason why T5 couldn't have been the best bits of previous versions, with the makers and technology revisions bolted on ;)

Because there's no consensus on what the best bits are in each edition, let alone which edition's best bits are best when the same subject is the best bit of two or more different editions.
 
Really? :devil:

because every poll has shown CT to be the most popular and still the most played - ok, possibly with house rules ;). Most posters on the subject have agreed that CT + a task mechanic (CT DGP/MT or the very similar MgT or something brand new) would have been a better basis for T5. Add more character generation options (special duty, special event tables, a points buy option), add a combat system that works (MT/MgT/T4) and you have your players book. A spacecraft, equipment and technology book and a world generation/animal encounters/alien design/psionics/campaign guidance book round out your three new LBBs. It could all be done in 3 56 page books

There is definite majority consensus on what have been the worst prior versions - T4 and TNE stand out here, but there is good stuff in both lines to mine for a CT/MT/MgT based game.

I would assume that Marc isn't allowed to just copy MgT stuff into T5, but he can definitely cherry pick from MT, T4 and TNE.
 
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[MgT task system] ... Add more character generation options ... [MgT combat system] and you have your players book.

CT-Plus already exists. It is called Mongoose Traveller.

MgT is the logical migration path for many CT players. The preferred direction for Traveller, agreed upon by popular consensus, is championed by Mongoose Publishing.

Being a rewrite, MgT is still beholden to its CT roots. Being a rewrite partly based on the early T5 draft, much of Mongoose Traveller is also cross-compatible with Traveller5, and thus you've got T5's functional goodness and consistency coupled with MgT's rules.

...I have encountered a strong "if you house rule then you aren't playing MgT and since you want to play MgT you can't house rule" faction. (No names. They know who they are.)

Laughably absurd.
 
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CT-Plus already exists. It is called Mongoose Traveller..

Not true. Character generation, System generation, combat, encounters, and trade are all different; system gen and trade are more different than any other edition's stuff.

If MGT is CT+, then TNE is CT 4.0.

MGT is, at its core, less compatible than MT was. It's not quite as different as T5, but on par with T4 for alienness from CT.

Even ship building isn't terribly close.
 
robject and aramis

You're both making very generic statements. Backing it up with examples detail might help.
 
CT-Plus already exists. It is called Mongoose Traveller.

MgT is the logical migration path for many CT players. The preferred direction for Traveller, agreed upon by popular consensus, is championed by Mongoose Publishing.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: How about we just acknowledge that it's the surviving option after Marc abandoned CT and in his own words didn't exercise enough personal control over a few other versions.

Matt bought the license and does what he pleases with it. "Take it or leave it" isn't exactly a vote in favor of what he's done with it.



Being a rewrite, MgT is still beholden to its CT roots. Being a rewrite partly based on the early T5 draft, much of Mongoose Traveller is also cross-compatible with Traveller5, and thus you've got T5's functional goodness and consistency coupled with MgT's rules.
:confused: Come on Rob, you know T5 is a failure for it's intended purpose (or at least it's stated one).



Laughably absurd.

I know you didn't mean this last to be taken in the context I'm looking at here...but it should be;)
 
robject and aramis

You're both making very generic statements. Backing it up with examples detail might help.
No, I'm not - but I'll give you more detail anyway, because it's important to prove the differences are more than cosmetic.

Character generation in MGT isn't even all that close to CT. It was redesigned from the ground up. It's different careers, different skill list, and has different rank titles, even. Further, the promotion and reenlistment rolls are combined into a single roll, creating an up-or-out that is not present in CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, nor T5. Plus, the special even roll has no precedent in any other edition - it does very different things from the MT and TNE special duty roll. Due to the differences in skill gain rates, MGT is close in level range to both CT and MT, but the skills themselves are not a close match.

Mainworld generation - which was unchanged from CT to T4 - is a different process in MGT - Starport is rolled with modifiers for population, unlike every other edition.

System Generation - CT Bk 6 is the prototype for the MT system; TNE adapts slightly from there, as does T4. Even T5 is an evolution of it. MGT's system generation doesn't include stellar data, orbit data (other than sequence from primary) nor much of the detail that all other editions have had.

Trade Systems - Traveller has 4 different trade systems other than MGT's - CT Bk 2 and T20 are close to each other; procedures are the same, but T20 has a larger table. CT Bk 7 is nigh identical to MT, TNE, and T4 trade systems; essentially, they're all the same rules. T5 is a 4th system. MGT trade is a fifth - it's not got the same detail levels nor rolls as any other Traveller edition. Nor is it even close procedurally to Bk2 nor Bk7. It's thematically closest to T5, but it's its own unique thing.

Ship Design -
While it's close to CT Bk2, it's far from the same. The addition of Armor, the small differences at the higher drive letters, the wider array of weapons.
And it's not just borrowing Bk5 stuff; either - it's doing stuff differently.

Ship Combat - The relationship between lasers and missiles is badly warped from CT's. CT Bk2 a laser does 1 hit, a missile 1d6 hits, and each hit is a weapon or a drive letter. MGT, a laser does 1d6 or 2d6, and missiles do 1d6; which is hull points of damage; essentially, each 4 points of damage also knocks out one system. In CT Bk2, a single hit from a laser cannot take out a ship's PP if that ship mounts a B or better PP, and in Bk5, it can't knock it out if it's PP2+; in MGT, it's very possible for a single laser to knock the PP out with a single hit. Likewise, in CT Bk2, a single missile impact is a major risk, averaging 3.5x the damage of a laser hit; in MGT, it's no more dangerous than a laser.

Meaning of UPP's: CT/MT/TNE/T4 size 0 is asteroid belt, LL has no restrictions on import technologies; MGT, size 0 is merely below size 1, LL has a specific restriction on both people leaving the starport and upon technology import.

Personal combat is different in every edition; MGT is no exception. Damages are not the same as in CT, nor is the methodology similar to either of the CT combat systems. (MT was at least ratings related to striker.) Damage taking is different from both CT editions and from MT. Unlike CT/MT, armor directly reduces damage linearly (in CT, it makes it harder to hit; in MT & striker/ahl, it indirectly reduces damage).

In point of fact, there is almost nothing in MGT which hasn't been changed from CT in some substantial way - ship design is the closest chunk, psionics the second closest.
 
No, I'm not - but I'll give you more detail anyway, because it's important to prove the differences are more than cosmetic.

In point of fact, there is almost nothing in MGT, which hasn't been changed from CT in any substantial way - ship design is the closest chunk, since the second closest.

Yes, you we're from the 3rd person reader prospective. And all the detail is appreciated. As you know. I understand your view better now.

There is a big difference between "changing" and "expanding" rules sets. Adjusting a few numbers for better accuracy (for example, larger ship tables) makes sense as an expansion or correction. Altering the behavior of a weapon system dramatically, is change.

I can see two different perspectives easily occurring and I can also a plan to create an expanded rule set becoming a new changed rule set.
 
Yes, you we're from the 3rd person reader prospective. And all the detail is appreciated. As you know. I understand your view better now.

There is a big difference between "changing" and "expanding" rules sets. Adjusting a few numbers for better accuracy (for example, larger ship tables) makes sense as an expansion or correction. Altering the behavior of a weapon system dramatically, is change.

I can see two different perspectives easily occurring and I can also a plan to create an expanded rule set becoming a new changed rule set.

There's very little of the "adjusting" - it's almost all "let's design a game with the same tropes" type parallelism.

The World generation is between revision and redevelopment - it changes the sequence of rolls, has different probabilities for starports and bases, and changes the meaning of UWP values in 3 categories - Starports, Law Level, and certain specific values of size.

That B-ports can build ships in MGT is a major setting change. It's not bad for new settings, but it drastically alters the makeup of the marches. (Tho', truth be told, it's a much better distinction than the CT one for realism purposes - if you can do major repairs, you can build new.
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: How about we just acknowledge that it's the surviving option after Marc abandoned CT and in his own words didn't exercise enough personal control over a few other versions.

Matt bought the license and does what he pleases with it. "Take it or leave it" isn't exactly a vote in favor of what he's done with it.



:confused: Come on Rob, you know T5 is a failure for it's intended purpose (or at least it's stated one).

As much as I like Rob (who doesn't like Rob?), I've got to back up Vladika here, on MGT and T5.

MGT is just another version. T5, in my opinion (and many others'), is a total sad failure.
 
There is a big difference between "changing" and "expanding" rules sets. Adjusting a few numbers for better accuracy (for example, larger ship tables) makes sense as an expansion or correction. Altering the behavior of a weapon system dramatically, is change.

I can see two different perspectives easily occurring and I can also a plan to create an expanded rule set becoming a new changed rule set.

And this is exactly what defines the amorphous blob-concept which is "CT Plus".

1. Take CT
2. Change ("improve") a few things.
3. GOTO 2 UNTIL DONE.
4. Rejection of resulting rules by many people.

Let's think about what it means to "update" Classic Traveller. I used Mike Wightman's own words for what that means -- but his opinion is not the only one. The changes I mentioned are just the ones mentioned by Mike. Imagine if we all pooled our opinions together, from Constantine Thomas to Mike Wightman to Andrew Boulton (RIP): what would we have?

How much does CT Plus need to resemble CT? We can't answer that, because it is a nonsense question.

Each rule bifurcation further fragments the CT fanbase. Chargen. Armor. Starships. Trade. Tasks. World generation. Each of these has at least 2 opinions.

In short: the Traveller fanbase was fragmented before MegaTraveller came out.
 
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