New thought about the course of Traveller

[GypsyComet]

Very true.

On the other hand, tabletop RPGs have now weathered their second, or maybe third, competitive "killer app". Magic the Gathering was the first, its cascade effects threatening the entire industry from within. Whether you count immersive video games in general and World of Warcraft specifically as one or two further competitors is largely semantics. It could also be argued that the OGL that accompanied D&D 3.0 was another such, but that was still a tabletop RPG, and ended up being a huge boon after a brief bottleneck.

Still the hobby is greying, or parts of it are. We are losing the first generation of RPGers already, but replacements seem to arise from the ranks of bored teenagers.

 

[ShapeShifter]

I'm not entirely sure if I've commented in this thread yet, but here it goes...

MM needs to license a studio to make a film version of discrete aspects of Traveller to significantly broaden the game's visibility profile and expand the brand, because, to take on the entirety of the canon Third Imperium would be to bite off far too much meat, and any movie trying to encapsulate all that subject-matter would suffer from exposition-bloat. To touch on select themes (grittiness, the unforgiving nature of space, mobility) and have one or two 'careers' as main characters would be more than enough to whet the public's appetite.

Or, in the very least, the Tubb estate should authorise a motion picture of the Dumarest books (arguably the singlemost influential literature to inspire the game), and then it would be easier to spread the word of Traveller to new gaming prospects.

"Man, I loved that Dumarest movie!"
"Great! Did you know there's a roleplaying game that was inspired by it?"
"No! That would be awesome!"
"Let me introduce you to some of our literature..."
:rofl:

 

[Blue Ghost]

It was one of my dreams to make a Traveller movie. Not anymore. Someone will do it though, and it might give the game a kind of shot in the arm.

 

[savage]

MM needs to license a studio to make a film version of discrete aspects of Traveller

We had that history near the end of another thread.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=32023

 

[robject]

Really? Interesting. I never knew Avengers was trying their own mix and clearly ended up supporting Mongoose. Did anything, a white paper, or anything ever get published? guess i need to look.

I believe MJD's equipment guide for Mongoose is a decent-sized chunk of ACT.

 

[Blue Ghost]

On the other hand, tabletop RPGs have now weathered their second, or maybe third, competitive "killer app". Magic the Gathering was the first, its cascade effects threatening the entire industry from within. Whether you count immersive video games in general and World of Warcraft specifically as one or two further competitors is largely semantics. It could also be argued that the OGL that accompanied D&D 3.0 was another such, but that was still a tabletop RPG, and ended up being a huge boon after a brief bottleneck.

Still the hobby is greying, or parts of it are. We are losing the first generation of RPGers already, but replacements seem to arise from the ranks of bored teenagers.

The market is shifting a great deal, or so I'm of the opinion. I think the tech gap mentioned in this thread and in the Ringworld thread might be a factor here. When you and I were younger the 386 was "the computer of tomorrow" so to speak. And my comment comes from the fact that I worked on PET and teletype computers at Lawrence Livermoore as a kid in the 70s and early 80s. Computers at the time were viewed as being as futuristic as warp drive and antigravity technology.

Now computers are everything most people ever wanted them to be, except for being truly artificially intelligent. Ergo there's a portion of the science and fiction in the science-fiction that has become reality, and therefore makes the game a less fantastic experience.

I'm also thinking that this is partially why there are still more players gravitating towards Pathfinder and fantasy games, as opposed to the venerable Traveller.

On line gaming has eaten into the hobby. I play BF 2142 habitually. It's essentially real time Traveller combat, and if you're alone without a gaming group, or without a family (or even if you have a family, but have a lot of spare time), then any of the computer games out there offer immediate entertainment. That verse the great deal of planning to get people together for a session of Traveller.

Even so I think Traveller will withstand the test of time. That's just my gut impression. In the "far future" it may fade, but it'll be around for many years to come, or so I'm of the opinion.

 

[Hemdian]

I'm also thinking that this is partially why there are still more players gravitating towards Pathfinder and fantasy games, as opposed to the venerable Traveller.

This is going off topic a little but when it comes to SF vs Fantasy I suspect there is a more general psychological aspect at work ... and it’s to do with the year. In the 70’s and 80’s people looked ahead to the year 2000. That was when the ‘future’ started. As time passed, the ‘future’ got closer and closer. Of course there were periods of economic uncertainty, but that was temporary; it’ll all be fixed by the time the ‘future’ got here. In the 90’s people started to obsess with what the new millennium would hold. But whether you thought the future would be bright or doom-laden, you were still looking forward. Eventually, the ‘future’ was no longer some years ahead but “frigging tomorrow!”

Finally the year 2000 arrived and people discovered that, apart from a few parties, it was a year like any other. Even the dreaded Y2K bug failed to appear in any big way (thanks to a concerted effort by programmers around the world). It was all a bit disappointing.

Now we’re in the ‘naughties’ and the 10’s. People look back on yesteryear, many with rose-tinted glasses. And again there is economic uncertainty but this time people worry if it will ever improve. It’s hardly surprising so many don’t want to think about the future right now. Fantasy is the emotionally safer bet over SF.

But I predict the next 50’s and 60’s will be a new golden age for SF ... and SF games.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Er, I guess what I should have said was that the tech gap is closing, and therefore what was seen as future technology is partially here, and therefore the wow-factor has gone out of Traveller and sci-fi in general.

I'm a little hazy on the year 2000 and its psychological impact argument.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Okay, I've thought about it some, and I see where you're coming from.

For me it was staying up late at night hoping to get to see a glimpse of "Logan's Run" or "Planet of the Apes" after everyone had gone to sleep. The computers, technology, or just overall story in those films is what we had, and I think a lot of 30-something and older Travellers and sci-fi fans in general remember wishing what it would be like to "travel" to those far off places.

I think John's observation and your own are spot on, and I think Traveller has suffered for it in terms of getting new players. But I still think it's robust enough to hang in there with the best of them. The idea is to reintroduce the social aspect of RPGing, which is part of the reason I liked the hobby.

It could be those magical days of fantasizing and then realizing (in a vicarious way) those fantasies in a paper and pencil venue are done and over with, but I don't entirely think so. I do think Traveller is getting the best makeover with Mongoose's presentation, but that there's an opportunity for further smarting up with T5.

I'm just sorry traffic on this site is down yet again.

 

[aramis]

I'm just sorry traffic on this site is down yet again.

It's not - posts are down slightly from all-time peak, but readers are up.

You're just not looking in the right places.

 

[tonieee]

The market is shifting a great deal, or so I'm of the opinion. I think the tech gap mentioned in this thread and in the Ringworld thread might be a factor here. When you and I were younger the 386 was "the computer of tomorrow" so to speak. And my comment comes from the fact that I worked on PET and teletype computers at Lawrence Livermoore as a kid in the 70s and early 80s. Computers at the time were viewed as being as futuristic as warp drive and antigravity technology.

Now computers are everything most people ever wanted them to be, except for being truly artificially intelligent. Ergo there's a portion of the science and fiction in the science-fiction that has become reality, and therefore makes the game a less fantastic experience.

I'm also thinking that this is partially why there are still more players gravitating towards Pathfinder and fantasy games, as opposed to the venerable Traveller.

Haven't fantasy RPGs always been far more popular than science fiction? That's been my impression since the early 80s.

 

[aramis]

Haven't fantasy RPGs always been far more popular than science fiction? That's been my impression since the early 80s.

Yes. The #1 selling RPG has always been Fantasy. It ain't D&D anymore, but Pathfinder.

The FFG Star Wars, if you combine all three flavors, is likely to hold a solid second place to Pathfinder for the next few years.

The real issue is that the biggest names in Sci-Fi gaming have been: Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer 40K. And all three are prone to Space Fantasy syndrome. Zapguns and Magic.

 

[tonieee]

Yes. The #1 selling RPG has always been Fantasy. It ain't D&D anymore, but Pathfinder.

I've never played/read it but isn't it just D&D without the name?

The real issue is that the biggest names in Sci-Fi gaming have been: Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer 40K. And all three are prone to Space Fantasy syndrome. Zapguns and Magic.

Star Wars I would not really classify at science fiction at all (though I am a fan of the movies). I'm not familiar Warhammer 40K but the impression I get is it's just orcs and elves with ray guns and space ships.Star Trek, though very patchy, does often feature good science fiction elements.

 

[aramis]

I've never played/read it but isn't it just D&D without the name?

That depends highly on one's definition of D&D. It's a close derivative of D&D 3.5, but at the same time, it works differently in character generation, especially skills, so, it's clearly NOT the same game, tho' it uses the same core engine.

Kind of like comparing T:TNE to T2K2.2 - yeah, they're clearly related, closely even, but the experience is different enough that not everyone agrees they're the same, especially since CharGen is different.

Star Wars I would not really classify at science fiction at all (though I am a fan of the movies). I'm not familiar Warhammer 40K but the impression I get is it's just orcs and elves with ray guns and space ships.Star Trek, though very patchy, does often feature good science fiction elements.

Star Wars and WH40K are both Fantasy in Space. The difference is one of Tone more than of realism levels. Both have non-newtonian space movement, both have nearly universal biocompatible life. Both have stupidly large ships with crews into the half a million range (tho' the lower ends differ a lot), both have major use of psionics.

Essentially, the 40K setting can be seen as Traveller crossed with Chtulhu, with Fantasy races used. (Mind you, Traveller's gone Fantasy Races at various points, too.) It's worth noting that 40K comes out right after GDW cancelled GW's Traveller license... and they'd been working on an ATU. The factions in the 40K universe being:

• Humans - essentially an evil empire and its army and space marines
• Eldar (space elves),
• Orks & Gretchins (Orcs and Goblins)
• Tyranids (who start of with the Geanstealers - a dangerously close parallel to the Alien series' antagonists)
• Necrons (ancient's Terminators or Borg)
• Tau (proud warrior race)
• Chaos (chtulhoid monsters and the mutated humans who worship them)

I enjoy the hell out of reading the 40K setting fluff. The early stuff could easily be done with CT; the newer stuff, well, it's gone a bit afield. The tech paradigm is no longer Traveller compatible.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yes. The #1 selling RPG has always been Fantasy. It ain't D&D anymore, but Pathfinder.

The FFG Star Wars, if you combine all three flavors, is likely to hold a solid second place to Pathfinder for the next few years.

The real issue is that the biggest names in Sci-Fi gaming have been: Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer 40K. And all three are prone to Space Fantasy syndrome. Zapguns and Magic.

I used to own the ST RPG, and I can't recall too much of it other than it really seemed to be hemmed in by the same thing Traveller's suffering from; a lack of adventures. That verse the explosion of material in the 80s with D&D. I assume the trend continues with D&D, though I don't follow the game.

Which to me is kind of an odd paradigm, since when you go to the sci-fi fantasy section of a bookstore (a dying breed) you see more books dedicated to sci-fi stories than to fantasy, or so it used to be. That may have changed.

 

[tonieee]

That depends highly on one's definition of D&D. It's a close derivative of D&D 3.5, but at the same time, it works differently in character generation, especially skills, so, it's clearly NOT the same game, tho' it uses the same core engine.

Kind of like comparing T:TNE to T2K2.2 - yeah, they're clearly related, closely even, but the experience is different enough that not everyone agrees they're the same, especially since CharGen is different.

Thanks for clarification.

Essentially, the 40K setting can be seen as Traveller crossed with Chtulhu, with Fantasy races used. (Mind you, Traveller's gone Fantasy Races at various points, too.) It's worth noting that 40K comes out right after GDW cancelled GW's Traveller license... and they'd been working on an ATU.

That's interesting. I remember that Games Workshop were talking about a game called Rogue Trader in about 86/7-ish that I got the impression was more Traveller like. 40k came out a few years later, after I'd left home and lost interest in gaming for a few years.

 

[tonieee]

I used to own the ST RPG, and I can't recall too much of it other than it really seemed to be hemmed in by the same thing Traveller's suffering from; a lack of adventures. That verse the explosion of material in the 80s with D&D. I assume the trend continues with D&D, though I don't follow the game.

I''ve played ST:RPG but can't really remember it but I did inherit my friend's Star Trek Starship Combat Simulator when he moved house which I used to play a lot until I bought Star Fleet Battles.

I agree with you about lack of adventures - they're more important to me than rules expansions. I'm not clever enough to come up with decent ones myself.

Which to me is kind of an odd paradigm, since when you go to the sci-fi fantasy section of a bookstore (a dying breed) you see more books dedicated to sci-fi stories than to fantasy, or so it used to be. That may have changed.

No, I think that's still the case. At least it is round here (Sheffield, UK). Though our biggest book shop does now have an "urban fantasy" section as well.

 

[aramis]

Thanks for clarification.
That's interesting. I remember that Games Workshop were talking about a game called Rogue Trader in about 86/7-ish that I got the impression was more Traveller like. 40k came out a few years later, after I'd left home and lost interest in gaming for a few years.

Actually, it was 84/85 that they were talking about it, and Warhammer: 40,000 Rogue Trader came out early in 1987. And it was 1985 or '86 when the Traveller license was pulled, in preparation for the MegaTraveller release in 1987.

Mind you, a lot of us Yanks didn't find out about it until 1988 - when it was first US reviewed in Dragon #129 (Jan 1988)... but it was out in the UK in 1987, and available before Christmas of 1987 in Alaska, as well. (I bought it with saved pay from Basic Training. My buddy Mark and I played with paper cutouts during Hanukkah.) Many Traveller players found out about it sooner because we'd get White Dwarf for the Traveller content...

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/11106/warhammer-40000-rogue-trader.

 

[tonieee]

My memory is terrible! Thanks for the correction.

 

[aramis]

My memory is terrible! Thanks for the correction.

No problem. I looked it up just to be certain, but it's one of those interesting historical bits.