Ok, What is the Role of a close Escort?

[AnotherDilbert]

1. Convoy escort.

So intended to fight and hopefully survive?

1. Screen (= cruiser escort, but requires assumptions!).

So intended to fight?

1. Gunned Courier.

So intended to fight (otherwise it would skip the guns and run away)?

1. Supply Line threat (= corsair).

So intended to fight?

1. Commerce threat (=raider).

So intended to fight?

1. Facilities threat (=marauder).

So intended to fight?

1. Intelligence gathering.

OK, a spy ship isn't intended to fight, but it's not an escort, close or otherwise.
We could use an escort or cruiser to shadow an enemy, because they are handy and available, not because that is their primary mission.

1. Patrol ("Route Protector" -- Al Morai's repurposing of four CEs for anti-piracy)

So intended to fight?

1. Picket (= in-system patrol)

So intended to fight?

Possible options, but would you buy a Gazelle to do any of those? Maybe we can do better.

Didn't we just do that?

CE-5146892-F30000-05003-0        MCr 546         520 Dton
bearing     1      1  4                           Crew=12
batteries   1      1  4                             TL=15
                     Cargo=2 Fuel=253,2 EP=45,2 Agility=6

 

[Grav_Moped]

Perfectly legal LBB5'79 design, slightly reskinned so the bay became two barbettes for LBB2.

Which made it an illegal LBB5'80 design because it had four hardpoints on 300Td of hull.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Which made it an illegal LBB5'80 design because it had four hardpoints on 300Td of hull.

Yes, the LBB5'80 redesign was quite bad and not legal. Barely any armour, no damper, underpowered, and too many (useless) weapons.
But the original LBB2'79 was legal (I believe) and much better. Except the drop tank that is entirely out of place on a warship, of course.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Yes, the LBB5'80 redesign was quite bad and not legal. Barely any armour, no damper, underpowered, and too many (useless) weapons.
But the original LBB2'79 was legal (I believe) and much better. Except the drop tank that is entirely out of place on a warship, of course.

It was underpowered because IIRC Agility was far less important under '79 than under '80 rules. '79 version was legal under those rules, because it had a single bay PartAcc instead of two turrets of them (and thus didn't need the extra hardpoint that broke the design under '80 rules).

I can sort of see the point of drop tanks -- when the ship is viewed as a self-deploying System Defense Boat.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It was underpowered because IIRC Agility was far less important under '79 than under '80 rules. '79 version was legal under those rules, because it had a single bay PartAcc instead of two turrets of them (and thus didn't need the extra hardpoint that broke the design under '80 rules).

As far as I know LBB5'79 didn't have any concept of power or agility, and it didn't affect combat. You needed a PP-4 for a MD-4, that's it. So, the LBB5'80 version needed a much bigger power plant, but there was no space for it.

I can sort of see the point of drop tanks -- when the ship is viewed as a self-deploying System Defense Boat.

Agreed, but the Gazelle isn't supposed to be an SDB.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Agreed, but the Gazelle isn't supposed to be an SDB.

It's a Local Close Local Close Escort.

 

[mike wightman]

As the ship paradigm shifted with the introduction of LBB:5 so too should the size of the 'close escort'.

A 400t close escort makes sense when your capital ships are the size of the Kinunir, but when they grow in size by a factor of 100 so too should the escort class.

 

[robject]

I would say it was more-or-less binding, but not limiting. LBB2 described how to do the basics, the rest was up to the referee. Even Annic Nova didn't break LBB2, it just added to the system.

(You've given me a great idea for a new thread!)

That was certainly the original usage of LBB2. And you have to allow that the ANNIC NOVA didn't just add a component. I think we could argue that the Gazelle's PA tweaked the LBB2 universe as well...

...SIDEBAR. I think that the PA battery ought to be "official" in LBB2 rules, since it was a published add-in. Can we have a new thread about that?

But anyway, I think that, perhaps since since High Guard, LBB2 changed to something more like RAW. @mike wightman can probably help us nail down when LBB2 changed from Extensible to RAW.

 

[robject]

Originally, the close escort was designed and produced by the lmperium for fleet operations. The small, fast close escorts were committed as the flank screens for cruisers or small fleet task forces.
Naval tactics in the Imperial Navy call for large ships to be accompanied by well-armed, small fighting craft capable of engaging the enemy at long range, before they approach the principle ships in a task force or convoy.
These small ships may be fighter craft carried by the larger ships, or they may be independent close escort vessels.
Thousands of close escorts have been built in the past several centuries, and hundreds have been built in the Gazelle Class.
The close escort, even when new, was not intended to stand up to combat vessels; rather it was envisioned as an anti-piracy and revenue patrol ship. In that role, it has performed well, but when pressed into combat duties it has invariably suffered disproportionate losses.
Their speed and size also made them ideal for naval courier and personnel transfer duties. But ultimately, they found their true niche. Many close escorts have been assigned to specific star systems or groups of systems for commerce protection.

THAT sounds like a fighter-based naval "doctrine", kind of, doesn't it?

 

[mike wightman]

It sounds like a small ship screen around the fleet extending sensor range and allowing for the direction of missiles.

Considering that to be an effective combatant a ship has to have a model 9 computer and agility 6 even 'fighters' are going to be almost 100t - note that a 95t heavy fighter with a model 9 computer and agility 6 has a defensive bonus of 8 and so can only be hit by factor 5+ missile batteries and factor 7+ laser batteries, as a result these screening ships are immune to the equivalent ship, it takes something much bigger than a few hundred tons to have weapon battery ratings high enough to even score a hit.

The redesign AD did upthread is a great example of an almost perfect picket ship - it can not be hit by its peers and anything larger is going to only cause minor damage for a huge overtonnage - so they also make good ships to hold the line while a fleet breaks off.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That was certainly the original usage of LBB2. And you have to allow that the ANNIC NOVA didn't just add a component. I think we could argue that the Gazelle's PA tweaked the LBB2 universe as well...

It just added what later became known as the Collector.
And applied obvious physics to accelerating the ship?
Is there anything else remarkable about the ship?

...SIDEBAR. I think that the PA battery ought to be "official" in LBB2 rules, since it was a published add-in. Can we have a new thread about that?

It was published in a LBB5 ship in JTAS, presumably advertising new features in LBB5. Just because it was suggested how to use it in LBB2 combat, doesn't make it an official part of the LBB2 ship design system.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As the ship paradigm shifted with the introduction of LBB:5 so too should the size of the 'close escort'.

A 400t close escort makes sense when your capital ships are the size of the Kinunir, but when they grow in size by a factor of 100 so too should the escort class.

A 40000 Dt escort would be impractical against fighters...

The natural sweet spot for escorts in LBB5 is of course size A, 1000-1999 Dt.

S9 showed (ridiculously bad) escorts from 400 Dt (the poor Gazelle) to 5000 Dt, among them two "destroyer escorts" of 1000 Dt.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It sounds like a small ship screen around the fleet extending sensor range and allowing for the direction of missiles.

Agreed.

Considering that to be an effective combatant a ship has to have a model 9 computer and agility 6 even 'fighters' are going to be almost 100t - note that a 95t heavy fighter with a model 9 computer and agility 6 has a defensive bonus of 8 and so can only be hit by factor 5+ missile batteries and factor 7+ laser batteries, as a result these screening ships are immune to the equivalent ship, it takes something much bigger than a few hundred tons to have weapon battery ratings high enough to even score a hit.

If we ignore armour, as any battery that can hit will inflict size crits anyway, it can be done at 50 Dt, at horrendous cost...

The redesign AD did upthread is a great example of an almost perfect picket ship - it can not be hit by its peers and anything larger is going to only cause minor damage for a huge overtonnage - so they also make good ships to hold the line while a fleet breaks off.

Quite, they hold the line as the fleet disengages, or more likely repairs their spinals, worn down by missile fire. Any non-rock spinal ship will spend a lot of time repairing as a matter of course.

The 520 Dt corvette above has a critical flaw: it can't damage anything with a damper, so any larger warship. At TL-14+ a missile bay is really needed.

It is better to leave behind a round as the fleet jumps out than a fighter, as it can jump out itself and doesn't explode in the presence of missile bays like fighters do.


TL-15 fighter:

FH-0206W91-000000-00003-0        MCr 158          50 Dton
bearing               1                            Crew=1
batteries             1                             TL=15
                           Cargo=1 Fuel=1 EP=15 Agility=6

Dual Occupancy                                        2       197
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             0             50         
Configuration       Cone               2                        6
                                                                
Manoeuvre D                            6    1         9         4
Power Plant                           30    1        15        45
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 0,3  weeks                   1         
                                                                
Bridge                                      1        10         0
Computer            m/9                9    1        13       140
                                                                
Cargo                                                 2         
                                                                
Triple Turret       Missile            3    1         1         2
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 197,25           Sum:         2       197
Class Cost          MCr  41,42          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 157,80

 

[mike wightman]

I agree, I would pitch an escort in the 1000-19000 ton bracket - big enough to have a missile bay and a factor 9 laser battery then fill out the USP for damage purposes.

I just don't know if it would be economically viable to invest in something that's only purpose is to disrupt a few manned sensor platforms... just evolve fleet doctrine so that your sensor/picket screen extends to map the system as the enemy does the same - after that ignore them until it is time to hold a line to run away.

 

[Condottiere]

We do have a five kilotonne fleet escort Sloan class.

I think the last mass produced general purpose frigate was the Oliver Hazard Perry class.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I agree, I would pitch an escort in the 1000-19000 ton bracket - big enough to have a missile bay and a factor 9 laser battery then fill out the USP for damage purposes.

Why the laser? It would force the ship over 2000 Dt, losing a defensive size DM?

I just don't know if it would be economically viable to invest in something that's only purpose is to disrupt a few manned sensor platforms... just evolve fleet doctrine so that your sensor/picket screen extends to map the system as the enemy does the same - after that ignore them until it is time to hold a line to run away.

Missile bays are excellent at degrading spinals. Not all that many are needed to degrade all capital spinals one letter the first round, a quite noticeable effect. Unless you want Tigress size, capital ships cannot afford all that many bays.

Missile bay screening ships keeps the enemy honest, i.e. forces him to invest in armour. If he only buys cheap meson sleds w/o armour, missile bays can slaughter them.

 

[Grav_Moped]

It just added what later became known as the Collector.
And applied obvious physics to accelerating the ship?
Is there anything else remarkable about the ship?

The problem is that it didn't apply obvious physics to accelerating the ship. Obvious physics would have enabled 0.66G acceleration (0.33 for a single pinnace), based on the boats' thrust capabilities. They de-rated the drives without explanation, and needing to use the aft docking port for extended acceleration is nonsensical as that location was equally off the line through the ship's center of mass. I mean, it looked more plausible because it was centered horizontally, but it would have needed to be angled sharply down (nose-up, tail-down) in the docking port in order for its thrust line to pass through the ship's center of mass (and because LBB2'79 maneuver drives were arguably fusion rockets, it would have mattered).

But yes, the "obvious physics" of allowing external tugboats to push a ship was a new innovation in the rules.

Other remarkable things about the ship were the existence of low-performance (in terms of compute-power per m^3) computers, and high-accuracy laser fire control (that also required more tonnage than standard). That is, that it implied that LBB2 wasn't the definitive description of all possible starship components.

 

[infojunky]

Preface, My comments assume a Small ship universe.

With all this I see a Close Escort as a Gun armed fast ship, M4 or 5 with enough Jump to keep up with fleet elements. Providing Gunfire support to fleet elements in both offensive a defensive operation, i.e. area missile and boat defense in one case and specialized gun fire in the other.

In a lot of ways it fills the Original Destroyers role.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The problem is that it didn't apply obvious physics to accelerating the ship. Obvious physics would have enabled 0.66G acceleration (0.33 for a single pinnace), based on the boats' thrust capabilities. They de-rated the drives without explanation, and needing to use the aft docking port for extended acceleration is nonsensical as that location was equally off the line through the ship's center of mass. I mean, it looked more plausible because it was centered horizontally, but it would have needed to be angled sharply down (nose-up, tail-down) in the docking port in order for its thrust line to pass through the ship's center of mass (and because LBB2'79 maneuver drives were arguably fusion rockets, it would have mattered).

The authors are not physicists (I assume), they grabbed some numbers at random, it's an RPG. They may even have wanted to limit it, so as to not make it an exploit, e.g. add a few Ship's Boats instead of M-drives by default.

If we allowed it a Ship's Boat is basically a M-drive A, with the necessary power plant and fuel, making it quite a tasty thing for a Scout... It would replace 1 + 4 Dt drives + 20 Dt fuel = 25 Dt at a cost of 30 Dt and give 12 Dt free space and a 6 G small craft to play with. Mongoose does allow it, under Breakaway Hulls.

Most deck plans I have seen have been imbalanced. Again artists are not physicists...

But yes, the "obvious physics" of allowing external tugboats to push a ship was a new innovation in the rules.

Yes, that is what I meant. I didn't even remember that you had to reposition the pinnaces.

Other remarkable things about the ship were the existence of low-performance (in terms of compute-power per m^3) computers, and high-accuracy laser fire control (that also required more tonnage than standard). That is, that it implied that LBB2 wasn't the definitive description of all possible starship components.

Quite, some added components, just like the Collector. Doesn't break the LBB2 system, just expands it. Now if you said that a M-drive A in a 400 Dt hull gave 4 G acceleration, that would break the LBB2 system...

None of LBB1-3 is complete, it's just some random stuff (among many other) that you can play with.

 

[Grav_Moped]

If we allowed it a Ship's Boat is basically a M-drive A, with the necessary power plant and fuel, making it quite a tasty thing for a Scout... It would replace 1 + 4 Dt drives + 20 Dt fuel = 25 Dt at a cost of 30 Dt and give 12 Dt free space and a 6 G small craft to play with.

Because in LBB2'77 a ship's boat didn't need 20Td fuel. I don't know off-hand how much it did have, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't 20Td.

And in LBB2'81, it would have needed 60Td fuel (10Td*Pn) in its 30Td hull(!?)

The LBB2''77 pinnaces of DA1 had 10Td fuel each, and their drives were arguably (G-ton output matches...) MD-A and PP-A.

Yes, that is what I meant. I didn't even remember that you had to reposition the pinnaces.

In the Mongoose version, you don't (and the aft nose-dock isn't present -- I consider this a major oversight, as the implied missing third pinnace is a significant plot hook in DA1).