Rationale Needed...
- Thread starter tbeard1999
- Start date
Huh, I have the articles right in front of me...maybe I'm taking too many painkillers again and am reading them upside down.
Nope...says so right here...
"On planets of size 8 or greater and of the same order of density as Earth, a Free Trader -or anything with a 1G drive - cannot take off. Thus, strap-on boosters are available for hire at starports of classes A or B. These help launch a vessel, and may be subsidised by local government or a purely private enterprise.
In the former case, a flat rate is chargedfor launch at the standard ground-to-orbit cargo cost of 10 Credits per tonne; in the latter case, exorbitant fees may be charged for launch depending on circumstances.
Alternatively, the vessel may remain in orbit and shuttles may be used."
There's (a whole pile of articles actually) more but since its all a figment of my imagination I'll go take some more valium to make it go away.
I didn't mean that Andy didn't write it. I meant that it's not true. With constant accelleration and a lifitng body, a vehicle with 1G maneuver drive can achieve escape velocity from a size 9 or 10 world.
Hans
Oh,... well ok then....yes...too many painkillers. Or not enough.
Well, I still like the booster thing since like I said it provides one more way to spend the players' money for them. But I've also not a lot of 8+ worlds IMTU. For some reason slightly smaller ones seem the norm when I roll them up. Probably something to do with the skewed averages on a 2D6-2 roll.
Well, I still like the booster thing since like I said it provides one more way to spend the players' money for them. But I've also not a lot of 8+ worlds IMTU. For some reason slightly smaller ones seem the norm when I roll them up. Probably something to do with the skewed averages on a 2D6-2 roll.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
No problem at all. Do that myself sometimes...
For simplicity, I've always assumed that maneuver drives could be run at double power or somesuch for liftoff. However, your idea does add texture to a campaign. I like the notion someone else had of letting the players rent rocket boosters...
And for your perusal...what if a world has a fanatically pro-environment government and won't allow starships to enter their atmosphere (pollution from the drives, or somesuch). Only "green" shuttles are allowed (and they cost twice as much as normal) for interface traffic...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Or a beanstalk. Very green and very cheap, but iirc also very slow. Suddenly that usual minutes to orbit via small craft is hours (or more?) and your planned one week stay turns into two before all your freight is transferred.
In addition to boosters I use cargo lighters which are either carried onboard the really big bulk carriers and freighters (since I don't allow anything over 1000 tons to land period), or ply their trade at the various starports. Even with highports I need lighters since I don't have beanstalks. I like ships better and the feel of the ports to support that.
The typical onboard version is 200 tons and the rest vary.
One NPC the players trade with uses an old Free Trader that lost it's J-drive and he never got around to fixing it. Eventually he put down roots on the backwater world, gutted the hull and put in a fuel purifier, demountable tanks, and turned it into a lighter/fuel truck for servicing the not-too-frequent shipping that comes to this little world. He's farther off the beaten path than before now that some routes changed after some colonies didn't work out, but the players trust him and he's a good source of gossip and semi-reliable rumors for the area.
The typical onboard version is 200 tons and the rest vary.
One NPC the players trade with uses an old Free Trader that lost it's J-drive and he never got around to fixing it. Eventually he put down roots on the backwater world, gutted the hull and put in a fuel purifier, demountable tanks, and turned it into a lighter/fuel truck for servicing the not-too-frequent shipping that comes to this little world. He's farther off the beaten path than before now that some routes changed after some colonies didn't work out, but the players trust him and he's a good source of gossip and semi-reliable rumors for the area.
Since Traveller has so much "squishy" science any-hoo I decided that
a few "plot-helping-devices" take up the slack for this sorta thing.
So the remote planet that hosts a month-long "arms faire" clears the
parking lots at the local plaza and reinforces them by laying down
super-dense steel plating to protect the ground. This to support the
50 or 60 Modular cutters/ship's boats/20-ton gigs, pinnaces and
launches that are going to show up in droves and tear the place
up in no-time. I run a lot and can see how certain roads take quite
a beating over years of constant car and truck traffic.
Not the greatest answer, but it helps get on with the game instead
of trying to figure out real science answers for the impossible. My
philosophy being: if you accept all sorts of other types of violations
in the RPG, why let this one set you back.
Probably in Real World™ type campaigns, the best place for landings
and ships would be water-based.
>
limiting launch size
There is wishywashy Anti-Gravity in Traveller! So, bottom line is one way or another they can do what they want. But ... too support the concepts that have been suggested.
- Friction is friction... its expensive to repair large ships.
- All it takes is one Hindenberg to have people insist on not landing dirigibles in the middle of the cities, there oceans or farmlands.
I see this as something similar to weapons laws, your universe just doesn't do it. Even the military cannot normally risk it.
There is wishywashy Anti-Gravity in Traveller! So, bottom line is one way or another they can do what they want. But ... too support the concepts that have been suggested.
- Friction is friction... its expensive to repair large ships.
- All it takes is one Hindenberg to have people insist on not landing dirigibles in the middle of the cities, there oceans or farmlands.
I see this as something similar to weapons laws, your universe just doesn't do it. Even the military cannot normally risk it.
I agree...I must confess that I don't allow anything to land that is bigger then 1000 tons is because I want a rationale for the players to use small craft more often. Leave the ship in orbit, take the launch down, use the local lighter pilots for cargo transport and handling - more things for the players to spend money on.
I also don't care that the ships have gravitic reactionless drives I still rule that they generate heat on re-entry, need aerodynamic surfaces, and the sonic boom from a 5000 ton ship is going to really piss off all the townspeople. I remember how ticked off people in LA got in the late 60's when booms coming out of Edwards would break windows and rattle the fine china. Imagine what just a Broadsword might do.
And since no one will play Privateers and Gentlemen I want to still have a reason for ships to carry all those cutters, pinnaces, and such. Cutting-Out expeditions, and all that Age of Sail stuff, too.
When ships the size of a couple of battleships can land on the ground and flatten the enemy fort why bother with landers and marines? Just use those goofy monitor things from Dune. Cruise the big sucker around and use it's meson bays on the enemy troops.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
You're assuming the world has an atmosphere on which to glide.
With or without atmosphere, Traveller dropped the idea. But...I sure like the way it adds texture and character to worlds.
I use the idea in my campaign. Consider it part of the "space opera" of Traveller.
True. Without an atmosphere it's a different matter.
As someone else pointed out, the rule makes no sense even for worlds without atmospheres, since Class A and B starports tend to have orbital components. It would make more sense if it was Class C starports on worlds with atmospheres 0-3.
Hans
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
That's exactly part of the charm, though.
Your M-1 Tramp can go to Planet X, but only if it is serviced by the High Port. Planet Y is off limits, because it doesn't have a High Port nor the technology to help the ship make escape velocity (Andy Slack's rocket boosters or some other device).
Some of the worlds become very memorable.
And, it definitely supports that Golden Age Space Opera feel.
battleships landing
A clarification is in order. As a rule of thumb I consider it expense if to land larger vessels. But these are suggestions the campaign in discussion. For mine the military does what the military does. For my high tech ports, gravitic sled/tugs are available to assist large ship landing. All of this has a cost of course!
Last edited:
Clarification on Dune? They have things called Crushers: several large ships that lock together and land on an enemy position to simply crush it.
Or as I said, if a streamline ship can enter the atmosphere and move around using reactionless grav drives then why not use it for ground support instead of worrying about how to get the marines landed in drop ships? No grav belts? The marines can fast rope from a 5000 ton missile carrier after it flattens the LZ with cluster munitions and FAE bombs on approach. They don't even have to worry about rotor wash. Smaller defensive craft can fly around and suppress enemy AA until the operation is done.
Some of this is me being a little facetious, but not entirely. If there are gavitic drives then the ship doesn't have to "land", it can just hover. If it is a military operation, like you just said, they'll do what needs doing to get the job done.
I always figured the same, but for plot reasons similar to everyone else's here I limit it to 1000 tons, and you have to have 2G acceleration to get off a size 8+ world without boosters.
Personally, I just don't like the floating down to land feel in the game. I want active re-entry with ships plowing down at high speed and landing on long runways. Noise, flame, the smell of burnt booster fuel.
Plus, I figure that while gravitic drives move a ship once it's in space, if you shut them off on the ground the ship might hog and break in half or something. Maybe not, but that's what I tell players: "Just picture something the size of a couple of Iowa class battleships sitting on landing gear. Now does that sound reasonable outside Star Wars?" Most say no.
Although, in the Sten series one of the things the Eternal Emperor does to put his "stamp" on a world he accepts into the empire is to land one of his dreadnoughts (dunno how big it is but they sound around 100kt+) and shut off it's grav drive. It sinks several meters into the ground and that is what he calls his "stamp of approval".
Personally, I just don't like the floating down to land feel in the game. I want active re-entry with ships plowing down at high speed and landing on long runways. Noise, flame, the smell of burnt booster fuel.
Plus, I figure that while gravitic drives move a ship once it's in space, if you shut them off on the ground the ship might hog and break in half or something. Maybe not, but that's what I tell players: "Just picture something the size of a couple of Iowa class battleships sitting on landing gear. Now does that sound reasonable outside Star Wars?" Most say no.
Although, in the Sten series one of the things the Eternal Emperor does to put his "stamp" on a world he accepts into the empire is to land one of his dreadnoughts (dunno how big it is but they sound around 100kt+) and shut off it's grav drive. It sinks several meters into the ground and that is what he calls his "stamp of approval".
I think it depends on the sci-fi feel you want in your games.
Those large spheres that L Beam Piper uses in Space Viking
certainly can land/take off on worlds; and of course there's
no treachery underfoot -- so to speak. It's all part of the plot.
It's one of the more memorable books I've read so I can be
partial to it.
1000 tons is quite a ship IMHO. I could see having to keep
grav-plates going to keep up her structural integrity and so
on... kinda flavor I'd like to have. It would also be routine so
as not to cause a special handling the crew has to focus on.
I've asked other questions like: How long to cold-start a fusion
PP once your dirtside and powered-down and got a variety of
answers.
Most of it seems to revolve around the ideas and flavor the GM
wants in there game.
So be it.
>
Those large spheres that L Beam Piper uses in Space Viking
certainly can land/take off on worlds; and of course there's
no treachery underfoot -- so to speak. It's all part of the plot.
It's one of the more memorable books I've read so I can be
partial to it.
1000 tons is quite a ship IMHO. I could see having to keep
grav-plates going to keep up her structural integrity and so
on... kinda flavor I'd like to have. It would also be routine so
as not to cause a special handling the crew has to focus on.
I've asked other questions like: How long to cold-start a fusion
PP once your dirtside and powered-down and got a variety of
answers.
Most of it seems to revolve around the ideas and flavor the GM
wants in there game.
So be it.
>
Strangelove
SOC-6
Sort of like this Berkey painting? Perhaps grav drives do things to atmospheres that are universally considered "unpleasant" to be around at the time of usage.
Last edited:
Sort of like this Berkey painting? Perhaps grav drives do things to atmospheres that are universally considered "unpleasant" to be around at the time of usage.
Like maybe flatten whatever is under the ship as the gravitics compensate fast to help cushion it's approach?
Once all the drama of the fiery re-entry is over I figure the drives can keep the ship maneuvering without any ill effects, my only issue is when it comes to actually landing on the ground and drives are off.
