Reflec Revisited

[kilemall]

One thing to note here is that TL would definitely play a role too. Somebody with TL 15 cloth body armor might well be wearing something that at TL 7 or 8 is unrecognizable as body armor. At the lower TL they might mistake the wearer's body armor as simply a jacket or "normal" clothing.

Maybe body armor on a low tech world expects someone to be wearing metal plate, or maybe thick leather or cloth where a high tech equivalent is much lighter, thinner, and looks like street clothes.

I note that T4 and MgT CSC had 'protec' suits.

On a side note, got to thinking how starport security handles the whole toting weapons thing, I'm thinking the rule is you can carry, but what is illegal is not declaring.

That and starport security law is absolute, as in martial, as in they can shoot you immediately without restriction if you are perceived as a threat to the port and therefore the Imperium/YourFavoritePolity, or deputize you into defending the place as toting a gun means you have de facto accepted membership in the polity's 'militia' as a condition of being allowed weapons.

A starport filled with people with starship weaponry and better weapons then most polity planets' weapons would be a scary place to attack.

 

[Enoki]

I note that T4 and MgT CSC had 'protec' suits.

On a side note, got to thinking how starport security handles the whole toting weapons thing, I'm thinking the rule is you can carry, but what is illegal is not declaring.

That and starport security law is absolute, as in martial, as in they can shoot you immediately without restriction if you are perceived as a threat to the port and therefore the Imperium/YourFavoritePolity, or deputize you into defending the place as toting a gun means you have de facto accepted membership in the polity's 'militia' as a condition of being allowed weapons.

A starport filled with people with starship weaponry and better weapons then most polity planets' weapons would be a scary place to attack.

Scary thinking that the Imperium has something like the TSA running starport security...

 

[kilemall]

Scary thinking that the Imperium has something like the TSA running starport security...

I'm guessing the Imperium has learned to 'bend with the wind' and allow a certain flow of weaponry, both as a way to 'get things settled' quickly by self-interested parties, and as a cheaper alternative then trying to control, patrol and police it all.

I'm thinking less TSA and more Marshall Dillon.

 

[Reban]

On a side note, got to thinking how starport security handles the whole toting weapons thing, I'm thinking the rule is you can carry, but what is illegal is not declaring.

That seems like a good rule.

That and starport security law is absolute, as in martial, as in they can shoot you immediately without restriction if you are perceived as a threat to the port and therefore the Imperium/YourFavoritePolity, or deputize you into defending the place as toting a gun means you have de facto accepted membership in the polity's 'militia' as a condition of being allowed weapons.

A starport filled with people with starship weaponry and better weapons then most polity planets' weapons would be a scary place to attack.

Well here's two things to consider: Starports are less like Airports and more like Seaports.

Or if you want to treat the Starport like and airport, understand theres a big difference between "air-side" and all the other areas of an airport.

In both cases the idea I'm putting forward is that you just can't wander off your ship with weapons and wander around with open carry weapons.

Many vessels undertaking international sea voyages carry smallarms, usually for self defense against piracy. Laws differ from port to port but generally if the weapons are secured aboard theres no problem. IMTU I go a bit further and allow armed guards at the access ways or in the immediate vicinity of the ship (but as a ref I make sure this attracts the scrutiny of the starport security).

Wandering around the Starport concourse or other public areas with open carry weapons is at best considered rude and uncouth, and at worst requires the attention of a starport security sniper.

I like your idea that declaring the weapons, say as part of the customs declaration, clears the way of a lot of problems.

Whether or not you can head for the XT line with those weapons can be solved by reference to the local Law Level.

Starship weapons like visiting naval ships in a port are probably handled by demonstrating that the weapons are in a safe mode and powered down.

Scary thinking that the Imperium has something like the TSA running starport security...

]

Again this comes down to is the Starport a Seaport or an Airport analogue. For passenger shuttle services there will probably be an airport style security arrangement.

For getting to the "air-side" or landing pad side of the security fence there will probably be something similar.

But you'll also face security at the ships gang plank because ultimately the starship captain decides what comes aboard his ship.

 

[Enoki]

I have also regularly divided starports up, at least larger ones that are A or B, into sort of "public" and "private" areas. The private areas are run by mega corporations that have large system operations and need a cargo handling facility and such, or ones that are major passenger lines with their own terminal and amenities for their passengers / guests.
These have the security run by the company, and depending on law level might also have government / local counterparts at the exits. Inside the compound the corporation rules for the most part and the locals stay out of their business.
Customs is another common thing. What they're concerned about varies too. They may not particularly care about guns but will toss you in prison for a single tab of some "illegal" (locally) drug. Think of it like say, Saudi Arabia. You get caught smuggling in alcohol and "off with their heads!" Guns for personal use? Not so much.

Same thing goes with appearance and such. Depending on law level and government type you might be restricted on how you dress and appear in public outside the starport.

You really need to look at the combination of law, government, population, and location to think through what the starport will be like and how the local population acts and what they allow or make illegal.

So, for example, a world run by an impersonal bureaucracy (gov 9) with a law level of 9 is going to be the Vogons or the DMV when it comes to how the starport is run. Paperwork, forms, lots of standing in line, and you might find it takes days to get approval to leave the port. Any mistakes and you get smacked down by the bureaucrats, and if you complain, the cops show up.
A gov D or E will have lots of rules about appearance and how you act in public. They may have days where there is no way to do anything outside whatever the religion allows.

A Feudal Technocracy (gov 5), a pretty common one, might have rules about what can be imported and exported even to the extent they frown on you even carrying it on your ship.

 

[kilemall]

I have also regularly divided starports up, at least larger ones that are A or B, into sort of "public" and "private" areas. The private areas are run by mega corporations that have large system operations and need a cargo handling facility and such, or ones that are major passenger lines with their own terminal and amenities for their passengers / guests.
These have the security run by the company, and depending on law level might also have government / local counterparts at the exits. Inside the compound the corporation rules for the most part and the locals stay out of their business.
Customs is another common thing. What they're concerned about varies too. They may not particularly care about guns but will toss you in prison for a single tab of some "illegal" (locally) drug. Think of it like say, Saudi Arabia. You get caught smuggling in alcohol and "off with their heads!" Guns for personal use? Not so much.

Same thing goes with appearance and such. Depending on law level and government type you might be restricted on how you dress and appear in public outside the starport.

You really need to look at the combination of law, government, population, and location to think through what the starport will be like and how the local population acts and what they allow or make illegal.

So, for example, a world run by an impersonal bureaucracy (gov 9) with a law level of 9 is going to be the Vogons or the DMV when it comes to how the starport is run. Paperwork, forms, lots of standing in line, and you might find it takes days to get approval to leave the port. Any mistakes and you get smacked down by the bureaucrats, and if you complain, the cops show up.
A gov D or E will have lots of rules about appearance and how you act in public. They may have days where there is no way to do anything outside whatever the religion allows.

A Feudal Technocracy (gov 5), a pretty common one, might have rules about what can be imported and exported even to the extent they frown on you even carrying it on your ship.

Well that's all true to doing starports as run by individual worlds or in a loosely coupled confederation/trade union, and of course each should have it's own flavor or character and way of dealing with travellers.

I'm going more on the assumption of an Imperium or something like it, with a clearly light hand on the tiller looking to maximize trade at the least cost, fiscally or socially, but a clear extrality nature to the starport outside of the world government.

Play value either way, you might be able to get away with something on one local style starport that would be no go in an interstellar one (say, buying nuke missiles for instance), but you also wouldn't have that tension between the embodiment of the interstellar polity and the planet.

Probably best to have both in a sector/subsector, so people really have a sense of different places just with the day to day of doing starport business. One is not better then the other, they are just different.

 

[kilemall]

TWell here's two things to consider: Starports are less like Airports and more like Seaports.

Or if you want to treat the Starport like and airport, understand theres a big difference between "air-side" and all the other areas of an airport.

Well, I would say the clean and shiny airport-like side of the starport is Highport, and the freight and charter/feeder type airport/seaport is Downport.

For lower level starports C and below, it's ALL downport.

In both cases the idea I'm putting forward is that you just can't wander off your ship with weapons and wander around with open carry weapons.

Many vessels undertaking international sea voyages carry smallarms, usually for self defense against piracy. Laws differ from port to port but generally if the weapons are secured aboard theres no problem. IMTU I go a bit further and allow armed guards at the access ways or in the immediate vicinity of the ship (but as a ref I make sure this attracts the scrutiny of the starport security).

Perfectly rational.

I like throwing the seemingly irrational at players though, just as a 'we're not in Kansas anymore Toto' to let them know that they aren't on 21st century Earth and attitudes change with centuries of experience.

And, I'm pretty sure most cargo freighters are not toting 1LS+ lasers and missiles on them either, so I'm rolling with a theme of 'we do things different out here' and making it rational, or at least consistent.

For instance, you have a lot of mercs moving through, they HAVE to leg their stuff around.

Wandering around the Starport concourse or other public areas with open carry weapons is at best considered rude and uncouth, and at worst requires the attention of a starport security sniper.

That's the point of the declaration, then appropriate resources can be placed on the right people, not to mention instant warrantless searches if a perp used a laser rifle and the players are only one of three crews inport with them.

The other part is that the lower the law level, the less corruptible the starport security is.

At LL1, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to corrupt or bribe starport security, they let most things go, but what they DO enforce and stop they will be extremely effective at, or at least not compromised.

And a travel ban through a polity's starports is better then a prison sentence, anyone with those will be trapped in space or on-planet, and will be VERY solicitous of getting such a ban lifted.

Which makes for a different kind of patron- the starport security intel people holding the promise of lifting a ban for doing something dangerous.

Whether or not you can head for the XT line with those weapons can be solved by reference to the local Law Level.

Of course.

Starship weapons like visiting naval ships in a port are probably handled by demonstrating that the weapons are in a safe mode and powered down.

I go one better, at A and B starports they can detect EMF from reactors and weapons and fire directors, the ship has to power down it's reactor and tie into port power, which is insufficient for charging weapons.

Type C or worse, a bit different, especially if the players' weapons ARE the starport's defenses effectively.

 

[Enoki]

I still say you have to consider local conditions as well. All Type A or B, or whatever grade of starport won't be consistently the same.

Let's say you have a Type B port on a world that's Earth-like, say size 8, atmosphere 6, hydro 7. It has a population of 5. That is there are say about 50,000 people on the whole planet.
Now, you have to consider how those 50,000 are distributed. Are they all in a few large towns and settlements, or are they in a bunch of smaller ones?
If you have a TL of say, B and a government say of 8 with a law of 6 what does that tell you?
The planet would be run by maybe a Baron with a handful of knights as the nobility.

A planet like that isn't going to be high space traffic. They lack the population to make it worthwhile. There simply won't be enough cash flow to warrant huge imports and there won't be huge exports.

Is a high port even justifiable? Maybe an orbital "truck stop," but certainly not some massive orbital with all sorts of luxuries. Sure, they have a refinery for fuel and there's a company that can fix ships and do a good job. They likely can't do anything big for lack of facilities and manpower. Why have a yard capable of fixing a 10,000 ton ship if you never get one to fix?

Even if they rely on automation and robots to a large extent, those don't consume goods and services for the most part...

So, you might have only a down port in this case. It could be nice, but it wouldn't be extensive either. I also doubt that the Imperium would have more than a few "federal" employees at it. The size and sheer unimportance wouldn't warrant the red ink of a large bureaucracy or security force to man it.

You'd also have the issue of ships just landing somewhere to refuel if they have processors. Why bother with the starport at all if you can land on the far side of the planet, unload your goods to the local community you have a contract with, refuel, and be on your way?

How much policing can the Imperium do in the system as well? I'd think they'd rely on the locals to do their own in what amounts to a backwater world for all intents. The few Imperial employees would be there more to keep things reasonably honest than trying to nitpick every ship that comes into the system. They simply wouldn't have the resources.

 

[kilemall]

If you feel the pop should drive starport LL, then tag it to world LL or pop as a feeder, maybe (Pop+1d6-starport hex code)=starport LL.

In the case of a B5 kind of setup, I would be dropping the starport LL down from an A anyway (B=11 as a negative modifier), so in all likelihood under most of the above systems it will be LL0 or 1 at most.

So concealed reflec at least in my wild wooly version would be ok in most ports but could get to be an issue at some A ports.

 

[kilemall]

Read up on aerogels, that might be a basis for reflec or at least ablat.

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2010/cg_2.html

 

[kilemall]

Now if reflec is effectively a superinsulator, it also stands to reason that there is a layer of reflec in the starship hull, and that reflec might also work to reduce IR signature if it were pointed inward (although the poor wearer might die of heat stroke if not on an ice planet).

I'm thinking though that wearing the external version would make you pop out on IR sensors, another reason the reflec civ suit would be very available and the LBB version is restricted- easy to find the guy that has the suit, can't be sure of who has the ability to eliminate government/LE laser use with the concealed version.

 

[kilemall]

Pour on powder that makes a fireproof gel and at our low tech level too, who knows what will be possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT4Cn97fQpI

 

[infojunky]

Reflec has always been one of those issues with me. Like lasers the performance is just too good. I have always toned down both the performance of both.

 

[nobby-w]

Reflec has always been one of those issues with me. Like lasers the performance is just too good. I have always toned down both the performance of both.

Various versions of Traveller have had certain weapons that are too powerful (i.e. powerful enough to be an issue with game balance, basically an insta-kill) - CT had this problem and Striker had it in spades.

Back in the day I did various things to nerf down weapons such as removing the 'exploding round' effect on lasers or snub pistol HEAP rounds, and limiting the positive DM to half the penetration on 'armour piercing' rounds.

 

[kilemall]

Various versions of Traveller have had certain weapons that are too powerful (i.e. powerful enough to be an issue with game balance, basically an insta-kill) - CT had this problem and Striker had it in spades.

Back in the day I did various things to nerf down weapons such as removing the 'exploding round' effect on lasers or snub pistol HEAP rounds, and limiting the positive DM to half the penetration on 'armour piercing' rounds.

On the Striker front I've left the weapon stats as is, but only apply a 1D extra to blunt trauma damage (maces, hollow points, direct HE, plasma+), do location damage for a 1D-3D range effect with shooter skill modifying for center mass/head or intentional wing shots, and a separate table with penetration/armor effects for a -2D to +3D range.

So on a center mass hit from a TL9 laser rifle at effective range, on an average 7 roll no armor will get 5D, cloth will get 4D, ablat 3D, reflec will get 2D, and reflec-cloth will get 0D.

Add 1D for head shot, subtract 1D for arms/legs. So a range from life-ending laser gouges to serious burns on the extremities or a war story about laser burns on the armor.

A lot of the nuances of that system were decided mostly on the laser/reflec interaction, as I wanted the classic lethality of lasers possible, but not the total success/fail model of CT combat nor the point absorption of Mongoose.

The other edge cases were the otherwise undefined mace/hammer that aren't amenable to the pure penetration model, the fact that a real world .22 pistol or dagger can still kill if they hit vitals but not possible in the system, and wanting an effect that PGMP/FGMPs kill with solid hits to center mass/head but extremity hits just take them off, not autokill.

 

[infojunky]

Various versions of Traveller have had certain weapons that are too powerful (i.e. powerful enough to be an issue with game balance, basically an insta-kill) - CT had this problem and Striker had it in spades..

Right now on this issues and on weapons in general is there is no solid comparison scale except for Striker. Right now I am trying reconcile the MgT family of systems into a comparative range of damages. The problem there is they took CT damages and threw out the armor modifications.

Right now I am playing with the thought

1. 2d Pistols
2. 3d Assault weapons
3. 4d Rifles
4. 5d Machine guns
5. 6d Auto Canon
6. 7d Various
7. 8d Artillery
8. 9d Turret Weapons (i.e. Tank weapons, ship's turret weapons)

From this list One could figure out what advanced weapons look like.

But the question circles around to reflect, in CT we always played only the best armor's DM applied. how would you apply in the case above?

 

[nobby-w]

Right now on this issues and on weapons in general is there is no solid comparison scale except for Striker. Right now I am trying reconcile the MgT family of systems into a comparative range of damages. The problem there is they took CT damages and threw out the armor modifications.[ . . . ]

You could do something like the original Twilight:2000 rules and give the weapon an armour modifier such as x2 or x3. Multiply the armour value by this before you take it off damage. Higher multiplier maps to less penetration; you could give armour piercing ammunition a multiplier of x1/2, for example. This lets it be effective against armour without being an insta-kill on unarmoured characters in the way that high-penetration weapons are in Striker

I've done various other schemes for damage as well, a couple of which are:-

• Give the weapon a penetration and a damage die. Targets would only absorb up to a certain number of penetration units (say: 3 for a human or 6 for a large creature). Armour absorbed penetration units. For example, if a weapon had a penetration of 6 and a damage of 1D6+1, it would do 3D6+3 to an unarmoured character or 1D6+1 to a character with armour value 5. Everything else would carry on out the other side, perhaps also damaging items behind the target.
• Give the weapon a damage rating and an 'ignore' factor. The weapon will ignore so many points of armour before the armour starts coming off the damage. For example, say you have a weapon that does 3D6 damage with an ignore factor of 5. If you roll 12, an unarmoured character takes 12 points, a character with armour 4 takes 12 points and a character with armour 10 takes 7 points.

On the Striker front I've left the weapon stats as is, but only apply a 1D extra to blunt trauma damage (maces, hollow points, direct HE, plasma+), do location damage for a 1D-3D range effect with shooter skill modifying for center mass/head or intentional wing shots, and a separate table with penetration/armor effects for a -2D to +3D range.[ . . . ]

I've done Runequest style t location systems where you have dice rolls. One enhancement I did was to give some locations 'critical' variants, for example In a manner similar to Striker, making your hit by 2 or more gives you an extra hit for every 2 you make your roll by. As an alternative, with certain weapons (e.g. sniper rifles) if the character is in a position to aim carefully, they could shift the location one point for each 2 they made the hit roll by.

Locations marked with a (C) are critical - hits in these locations do damage a step more severe than it otherwise would. A character with better aim could have a better chance of hitting a critical location. Armour could cover certain locations but not others. Add in whatever damage system takes your fancy.

2D6	Location
2	Head (C)
3	Head
4	Arms
5	Arms
6	Torso (C)
7	Torso
8	Abdomen
9	Abdomen
10	Legs
11	Legs
12	Legs (C)

 

[BwapTED]

Various versions of Traveller have had certain weapons that are too powerful (i.e. powerful enough to be an issue with game balance, basically an insta-kill) - CT had this problem and Striker had it in spades.

Back in the day I did various things to nerf down weapons such as removing the 'exploding round' effect on lasers or snub pistol HEAP rounds, and limiting the positive DM to half the penetration on 'armour piercing' rounds.

I added a new thread with an overheating nerf for lasers.


http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=37670

 

[kilemall]

You could do something like the original Twilight:2000 rules and give the weapon an armour modifier such as x2 or x3. Multiply the armour value by this before you take it off damage. Higher multiplier maps to less penetration; you could give armour piercing ammunition a multiplier of x1/2, for example. This lets it be effective against armour without being an insta-kill on unarmoured characters in the way that high-penetration weapons are in Striker

I've done various other schemes for damage as well, a couple of which are:-

• Give the weapon a penetration and a damage die. Targets would only absorb up to a certain number of penetration units (say: 3 for a human or 6 for a large creature). Armour absorbed penetration units. For example, if a weapon had a penetration of 6 and a damage of 1D6+1, it would do 3D6+3 to an unarmoured character or 1D6+1 to a character with armour value 5. Everything else would carry on out the other side, perhaps also damaging items behind the target.
• Give the weapon a damage rating and an 'ignore' factor. The weapon will ignore so many points of armour before the armour starts coming off the damage. For example, say you have a weapon that does 3D6 damage with an ignore factor of 5. If you roll 12, an unarmoured character takes 12 points, a character with armour 4 takes 12 points and a character with armour 10 takes 7 points.

I've done Runequest style t location systems where you have dice rolls. One enhancement I did was to give some locations 'critical' variants, for example In a manner similar to Striker, making your hit by 2 or more gives you an extra hit for every 2 you make your roll by. As an alternative, with certain weapons (e.g. sniper rifles) if the character is in a position to aim carefully, they could shift the location one point for each 2 they made the hit roll by.

Locations marked with a (C) are critical - hits in these locations do damage a step more severe than it otherwise would. A character with better aim could have a better chance of hitting a critical location. Armour could cover certain locations but not others. Add in whatever damage system takes your fancy.

2D6	Location
2	Head (C)
3	Head
4	Arms
5	Arms
6	Torso (C)
7	Torso
8	Abdomen
9	Abdomen
10	Legs
11	Legs
12	Legs (C)

Huh, I missed this.

Ya I have that in my Striker thread in the CT area.

 

[aramis]

When I use a hit location table, I use the one from TD 13...

12	L foor
11	L hand
10	L Leg
9	L Arm
8	Head
7	Chest
6	Abdomen
5	R Arm
4	R Leg
3	R Hand
2	R Foot

Subtables

Roll	Head	Chest	Abdomen
6	roll twice/Brain	Heart & Lungs	4 organs
5	Throat	Lung, R	3 Organs
4	R Ear	Lungs, B	2 Organs
3	L Ear	Lung, L	1 Organ
2	R Eye	Heart	No Organs
1	L Eye	Heart	No Organs

Note: Brain is a house rule - on a roll twice, a repeated 6 I score as a brain hit. half of Damage dice must be applied to Int &/or Edu, and the worst die is a permanent reduction.
Also: Any head hit, one die goes to Int or Edu.