Sell me on TNE

[jalberti]

I have never liked the background or game mechanics to TNE, but found some of the suppliments are very good. I own all of them, but have stuck with MT and the Rebellion background. I have used the TNE material mostly as suppliments to my MT gaming. I especially liked Survival Margin.

I have read the notes on 1248 and it does not appeal to me at all. But I think TNE fans may like it.

 

[Cymew]

I know this is almost a resurrect, but Bill's comment about PoT makes me wonder.

What's so good about it?

 

[epicenter00]

PoT is pure gold. It's wonderful stuff. They set out to make a flexible, useable supplement that would be good for ages and they succeeded.

The point with Path of Tears is that they don't give you twenty pages of the "Evil Overlord's Megacastle" floorplans complete with itemized descriptions of what's in each room and the random encounter tables. GDW knew you could do that yourself.

What they gave you was a list of planets, overall maps of the planet, and an overview of the situation of the planet. A blurb is given suggesting which way things are likely to go, but that doesn't mean that's how it's going to go.

Then GDW gave you a bullet list of interesting situations that exist on each planet and further situations that might exist on the planet given player intervention. The possibilities are endless because it's just little bullet points of inspiration for the GM (which is all most of us need to write a game).

For instance, they might tell you that the god-emperor of a planet is actually a guy who survived from the Third Imperium and is using TL15 and 16 gear to wow the local populace, who've fallen into savagery. How the players and the GM deal with him is up to you. However, there's a thread about "what if the players decide to go for the soft touch and talk to him?" and it's noted that the god-emperor is actually bored of being god-emperor and would gladly step down if offered certain guarantees about his life in abdication. Then there's some other threads about what might happen if he did step down peacably like this. Each of them has the potential to be fleshed out into an adventure spanning many sessions. Together, they can create a campaign ... all on one world. In total, there's tons of these ideas (like at least a hundred), each of which can be used to make adventures.

It's up to the GM and the players to decide which thread they want follow and their actions are what decides the factors on the planets. There's a suggestion that GDW isn't going to touch these worlds again for the most part, so what happens on these worlds can become part of the history of the RC - good times and bad times, without fear that something Nielsen writes later will invalidate what your players did.

EDIT: I almost forgot...

They also flesh out for you the Reformation Coalition, but they don't give you UPPs and maps of these worlds which is stuff that's fun for collectors but not so useful for GMs. Instead, they concentrate on stuff that's useful for players and GMs. Like how the Auction really works, the Schalli and their troubles, the opposition to the RC known as the Merchant's Guild (though the Guild is a bit thin on info, admittedly).

However, the pure gold for me is descriptions of the member world's populaces. This section gives you a commentary of an archtypical person of that member world. Though there's potential for plenty of variance, it gives the GM (and the players) a good handle on how the "typical" person of these worlds sees things - in particular the other member worlds, the Hivers and their clients, and how to approach the future. In particular, the comments by the Oriflammen woman about things is particularly poignant to me. You can almost hear her brassy, cynical tone of voice she'd use, how she shrugs at suffering, and so on. Also good is the insightful commentary by the guy from Spires about everyone else. You can see the strains within the RC, and if the atmosphere reeks of the pre-Civil War United States, well, it's tolerable nontheless because it's so interesting. And useful.

 

[jfetters]

Cymew,

Are you asking from a setting/background POV, or a rules mechanics POV?

I thought the setting was interesting, as if you wanted to really push the "making a difference" angle, along with Virus, etc, the RC background was fascinating. What I liked best was that the background actually EVOLVED as time passed, and was clearly going to further had GDW not closed shop. (This, BTW, is one of my negatives about MT - the "Rebellion" stayed static until the very end.)

And of course, if you wanted to play a pure "High-Tech" standard Imperium-type setting, there was the Regency (Domain of Deneb).

Rules-wise, the biggest change was the task system, which wasn't too bad - the problem was that you had to get used to the fact of using "Assets" (Skill + Controlling attribute) to determine your target roll number on a d20. I am kind of on the fence on that, as they re-did some of the skills to make more sense (Astrogation vs. Pilot + Navigation), but the whole need to determine the Asset was a minus, IMO.

TNE also introduced Charisma as a standard UPP item. This made sense in view of the task system, but it kind of flew in the face of the past systems.

The ability to create virtually any peice of hardware using FF&S was incredible.

One BIG minus for me was (ironically) because of the equipment design system. The new system used HEPlaR for space propulsion, which had a totally different set of requirements than the MT universe. Actually, one of the things on my "to-do" list now is to convert MT designs to TNE, but using thruster plates instead of HePLaR.

 

[Cymew]

Jim,

I have a fairly good grasp on TNE as a rule system. What I don't know that much about is the setting books, in this case "Path of Tears".

The summary by "epicenter00" was exactly what I needed to get a grasp on it.

It's interesting that you think so highly of the evolving background. I personally absolutely *hate* metaplots, and the "in your face" style of Dave Nielsen really drove me up the wall.

I guess you can never please everyone.

 

[jfetters]

Yeah, it's all preference. And I completely understand about Nilsen's style. A lot of people didn't care for it - I just didn't mind. Like epicenter mentioned, really gave a nice framework for an upcoming "Democracy vs. Nobility showdown" which never happened, which I thought would have been very interesting.

I think it all comes down to the RC setting and if you like it or not. Path of Tears is excellent for a nice skeletal overview, but the other supplements start to dig a little deeper into things. I would also highly recommend "Survival Margin" if you don't have it already, which bridges the gap between MT and TNE.

 

[Cymew]

I actually bought "Survival Margin" a while ago and I found it not as interesting as everyone claimed. Maybe I just wasn't that interested in the "story" if it wasn't me playing it...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Random Goblin:
(David R. Deitrick, old-school Traveller artist, is my dad, so as a baby I inhaled airbrush fumes from all of the alien module covers for CT, and Traveller was permanently burned into my brain)

Well, tell your pops this...

He's the reason I first purchased Traveller items back in high school a quarter century ago. I loved the Deitrick covers and interior illos. They had such a realistic feel.

I still love his art the best in Traveller--so much more than anyone else's.

In fact, your dad and Bryan Gibson are the two best Traveller artists I can think of.

No kiddin'.

Great stuff.

 

[epicenter00]

Originally posted by Cymew:
I actually bought "Survival Margin" a while ago and I found it not as interesting as everyone claimed. Maybe I just wasn't that interested in the "story" if it wasn't me playing it...

Survival Margin was a very strange supplement to me, like exceedingly odd. I enjoyed reading it, especially the TAS part (the part about why the Imperium fell wasn't so good, in my opinion).

However, TNE always seemed to me a game about the future, not about the past. The past is just that, the past. TNE was a "young" setting - and like most young people, history wasn't such a big concern as the present. Like idealistic 60s college students in space. The people of the RC seem indoctrinated into a black and white view that the Imperium was a terrible and decadent place, filled with sociopaths of different stripes who ended up killing each other off and destroying the best thing that humanity ever had. Idealists like that tend not to care about the specifics of history.

---

I actually liked quite a bit of Nielsen's stuff. I liked the idea of The New Era a lot - a cataclysmic event that pretty much reduced the Traveller universe to rubble, in effect creating a new Long Night and civilization and hope springing a new from the cracks of the fallen civilization. Great stuff. Then there were three BIG problems with the setting that really turned me off of it:

* The Long Night turned out to be kinda of a short night. More like a total solar eclipse instead of a night. Somehow, you have massive devolutions in language, regression to tribal farming, hunter-gathering socities, shamanistic belief systems and other social developments generally considered to be Stone Age, but also being the hard-won social developments that are generally considered to have took thousands of years to develop on Earth ... all occuring just 70 years? Shennanigans. I found that hard to buy.

* TNE felt very much like a less of a roleplaying game and more of a vehicle to push GDW's or Nielsen's personal political views. I guess it was written shortly after when the Wall came down in Europe, but it became very tiring (for me) about this concept that "nobility = bad" and democracy is somehow presented as not only a form of government but as some Truth and the ultimate evolution of human thought and organization. To explain this (for us assumably dim readers) they had to give us not one, but two examples. You had Reformation Coalition, which is pretty obviously modelled after the United States between the end of the War of Independence and the adoption of the Consititution. Then have you have the Regency - who are supposedly keeping alive traditions of the Imperium - whose first step was to disenfranchise their nobility in favor of democracy (big fat WTF there ... nevermind that the system of nobility was like one of the cornerstones of the Third Imperium). Started by the unrealistically perfect figure of Archduke Norris (a guy who apparently couldn't ever make mistakes), these democratic reforms were welcomed by everyone ... well except for those evil, selfish anti-democratic nobles twisting their handlebar mustaches and wringing their hands and plotting away, and we all know they're evil because they're decadent and selfish and don't like democracy. The entire setting in the Regency very much seems based on the post World War I United Kingdom.

* The third was the condescending self-indulgence and tedency for GDW in those last days to increasingly go into strange tangents and injecting odd quirky humor (often at inoppurtune moments) that really got severe as time went on (H&I sourcebook anyone?). It really ruined a lot of what should have been "serious" moments.

But for the most part (besides some of the weird nation names in the book) Path of Tears avoids the pitfalls of the larger setting and is basically designed as a fun jumping off point for the universe of TNE. It's a great book and easily scavenged for ideas for adventures in a variety of frontier settings. I think most of it could be adapted for use in T4 with minimal effort, as well as D20 settings in frontier areas, like in the Client States.

EDIT - fixed some bad typos.

 

[Cymew]

It sounds like you have summed up, and for once it's done cool and rational, all that rubbed me the wrong way with Dave and TNE.

Since you obviously liked PoT I guess I would like it as well. Damn, this going to cost me...

 

[epicenter00]

You might not like it, Cymew. But I think you will. I really have to agree with Bill, it's like a moment of Nirvana in game supplements. For a moment you see a glimpse of what the Creator intended game supplements to be.

Path of Tears is a great supplement. In fact, if you just take the RC as presented in PoT and ignore anything else written about them, you'll probably even think the RC is pretty neat. There's one world with an organization with the kind of Nielsenesque goofiness of H&I, but even then, it's written with the proviso of "the GM is free to make as much or as little about this group as he or she likes - they can either be a bunch of jokes or actually extremely powerful."

 

[Ron]

Ruleswise, what is great in TNE? The main book seems too complicated and thus I never cared to read it. Is it worthy?

 

[kafka47]

Rules? I just used it for the rules that were not clear or badly written in other rule sets and ignored all the others. It simply is a great bedtime storybook.

 

[epicenter00]

Worthy in what way?

TNE was a result of the increasing eccleticism at GDW in its last days, imo.

Background and Atmosphere -

The book gives you some neat ideas, and I think the two sample adventures given in the main book are pretty good for sample adventures, especially Idol Dreams. Both adventures do pretty well to capture the feel of the universe.

But if you want to play in the TNE universe, without the cumbersome House System, you're better off buying Path of Tears. If you're a masochist, get the other RC sourcebooks.

As for rules -

In short? Pass on them.

The long story: As a ruleset, the book version of starship combat was complicated, but pretty good for achieving its goals of combat system where you didn't need minis to play it. This might have been a big deal, except that you basically needed a grid and playing pieces for the tactical combat.

And the TNE rules are complicated. Needlessly so in many places, in my opinion. Just take a look at the data entry for the laser. Like who the @#$! cares about all that attenuation micromanagement for lasers? Obviously someone at GDW got off on meticulously detailing lasers in TNE. Even more embarassing is the game data for light and heavy battledress. Like what is up with that stuff, why do I need a codebook to read the data entry for it? Why does the entry have to be so complicated? And most of all...who cares? A bunch of little codes and decimal numbers. It's an embarassment to have the stereotypes about sci-fi gamers vindicated so very throughly by the very worst of pocket-protector nerdom like that.

And after all that, the House System still isn't that good for combat. (Look at the damage system for punches as compared to small firearms.) TNE's rules are cumbersome and built for people with a fetish for doing basic math on a calculator. And here we all thought it was an RPG.

 

[aramis]

The CG system is actually fairly nifty. CG works quite well. And the contacts system is an awesome add-on. Too bad it was a throwaway reference.

Several "fixes" for combat were put forward... one of which is to use d10's for damage, rather than d6's, and use d6+0 instead of D6-1 for damages of -1. Of course, the method for calculating punch damage is badly broken. I had a Vilani Marine who could do enough damage to damage an Intrepid GMBT...

 

[epicenter00]

I do indeed stand corrected. It's so easy to be negative about TNE (mostly because I feel betrayed by what promised to be an awesome setting).

In the bleakness of the overly complex TNE rules there's a few gems in the character generation system for TNE. Like the chart where the players pool their ship DMs together to get a ship, the contacts, and a few other references were pretty awesome and impressed me.

The concepts of "contacts" and the generation method (similar to the one in other House System games, but a bit more detailed, I think) for TNE was a pretty awesome idea. I should actually implement that in my current game, now that you mention it.

 

[Antony]

That must have been one tough Vilani marine since melee weapons use points not dice of damage and armour can absorb twice its rating of melee damage without passing any damage through to the occupant Ie a suit of TL14 Cataphract battledress
www.skaran.net/banners/equipment/equipment/Alston/Cataphract.html

with an armour rating of 14 can absorb 28 points of melee damage per blow without passing any of this to the suits wearer. The humble pistol doing 1D6 of damage will not of course penetrate the armour either but a point of blunt trauma per hit will still reach the armours occupant.

 

[Golan2072]

My current view on TNE:

The Good Things:

1) Flavour text. Everything in the basic TNE book has flavour text. Alot of flavour text. Very good flavour text. It gives you the atmosphere and the "spirit" of the era, and is very fun to read anyway.

2) Generally speaking, most non-rule written text in the TNE book is of very high quality, very well written, very readable and very atmospheric.

3) If you put the TNE universe's faults (read: MEGA-OVERDOSE of virus-induced postapocalyptic wasteland) aside and use the right "dosage" of the setting material (a little bit of Virus, a little bit of Black war, a big amount of chaos but also a big amount of independant recovering worlds and pocket-empires), you'd get quite an interesting universe to play in, and quite dynamic too.

4) The TNE setting encourages and enables players to change things around them - sometimes in significant ways - and PCs' actions tend to matter to the relatively-big-picture of TNE. It also encourages players to take sides, to have characters with opinions in political, social and moral matters, as opposed to the mercenary/merchant attitude fostered by "vanilla" CT.

5) There are no "black" and "white" in the TNE universe - just shades of gray. The Reformation Coalition might speak all day about "democracy" but then support a TED or two who happen to see things its way; the Regency seems to be a "reservation" of the "good, old Imperium", but, on the flipside, is very conservative and quite xenophobic.

6) A few rules are good and interesting - mostly CharGen, Contacts and a few more things; they'd be good as inspiration for your house-rule work.

7) The two sample adventures are, IMHO, the best two adventures I've ever read for any version of Traveller.

The Bad Things:

1) Over-complex, over-cumbersome rules; a Task System that is even worse than T4's one; an overall tendency to complicate every rule and turn it into a peperwork and math nightmare; design rules that require an Engineering degree to use.

2) An extreme over-dosage of Virus and Black War use, turning the OTU into a greyish uniformity of post-apocalyptic TED ruins after post-apocalyptic TED ruins. This tuned from a "reset switch" designed to INCREASE variety and colourfulness to a wipe-all bomb that levels the entire universe into the same kind of wasteland. Interesting when played once or twice, boring when each planet you vists is a very similar kind of TED-over-ruins.

 

[mbrinkhues]

2-4601 (if I may familiarly call you by your number):

While I agree with the "too much Virus and Teddies" when it comes to the base supplements, what do you mean with "Task System worse than T4s?" IMHO the T2K 2.2 (TNE is a sub-version) task system is extremly simple.

As I understand it:

Take your asset (Skill+Attrib), take a modifier (1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 4) depending on difficulty (the more difficult, the higher) and roll a D20 below/equal to that. Did I overlook something?

Same with most of the combat stuff with the single exception of vehicle damage for some weapons that can also be used against characters (Fusion/Plasma mostly).

 

[Golan2072]

The main issue is IMHO with Attributes and Skills being added togather to create an "Asset", when the avarage Attribute is far higher than the avarage Skill, which results in Attributes being far more important that skills under most circumstances, which is quite contrary to the Traveller spirit of "your training is your most important asset".