Services and their Weapons

[bairdec]

The pistols vs. rifles argument basically boils down to the expected usage.

In a field environment pistols are nearly worthless. They don't have the range needed to engage a target at any reasonable distance. Moreover, they don't have enough stopping power, especially with the smaller calibers (≤ 9mm /.38), and especially if the target is wearing body armor.

Rifles on the other hand are great all around weapons. They have range, they have stopping power, and at the current tech level and above, need not be unweildy due to shorter barrels, bullpup configurations, and folding/telescoping stocks.

Rifles become a disadvantage when dealing with confined spaces and public perceptions. Onboard a cramped starship, I think civilian crews would favor pistols or SMG's, partly because of the cool factor and partly because of cost. I note here that modern-day Marines use rifles onboard Navy vessels for security details.

Security forces carrying anything larger than a pistol are generally seen as being heavily armed, and in "civilized" societies, that is looked at as intimidation on the part of the security.

 

[Todg]

In Traveller terms, guns seem pretty common - more so than most of us are used to. In a lot of places (judging from Traveller artwork and law levels) a rifle is about a likely to generate comment as it is in a place like Mogadishu.

Consider:

Every startport is law Level 0

In the Spinward Marches, there are 400 worlds, with an average Law Level of 5 (4.7). At this law level, concealable weapons (pistols) are banned, but long guns are not.

71 worlds (16%) have no restriction on weapons whatsoever - body pistols, poison gas, bombs are all pefectly legal.

One 131 worlds (30%) is it perfectly legal to posses military type weapons (machineguns, automatic rifles).

It's not until Law Level 6 that open carrying of weapons is 'discouraged', suggesting that on more than half of all worlds in the Marches, it is perfectly acceptable to carry arms openly.

About half the people out there are going to regard carried weapons about the same way you or I might regard an umbrella - at least out in the Marches.

Again, note that pistols are banned before longarms are. It seems that handguns have more of a stigma than rifles do.

Obviously, it's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions from the data in absense of other facts. But it certainly suggests that the Imperium, or at least the Marches, has a much more relaxed attitude about weapons than one might find in a place like the US.

Indeed, the Marches are likely to bear more resemblance to the TV and Movie US of the 1860-1890s, with the more restrictive planets resembling the East, and a good potion of the planets very much like Abilene, Deadwood, Dodge city and Tombstone.

In the case of starports, all bets are off.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Corejob:
In the Spinward Marches, there are 400 worlds, with an average Law Level of 5 (4.7).

Bear in mind that most low law worlds have low populations. While by world your statistics are correct, going by population half of the people live at law level 8+, and 75% live at 6+.

 

[archhealer]

Also keep in mind civillian access/blending into a civilian crowd. In current real world US of A, in most states, if you haven't got a criminal record, it's relatively easy to get licensed to carry rifles/shotguns. A bit more difficult, but not much, to get licensed for a handgun, or revolver. SMGs, Assault weapons, and the like are very, very difficult to get licensed for, unless you're millitary, a dealer, or occasinally law enforcement.

For scouts especially, but also for anybody else not wanting to draw trouble, handguns are a good option> They won't elicit TOO much comment, and can be easily hidden. I imagine many services would carry them in Traveller, when going into situations where they didn't expect trouble but want to be prepared.

If EXPECTING trouble, of course, you're damn straight I'm bringing my assault rifle.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Well, I hope my opponents are into 'cool' and all carry pistols. I'm going to pick them off at 500 meters."

Except we're indoors, with no corridors longer than 10m. Although I'm long gone by the time you get there, because the cops kept stopping you every 5 minutes to check your ID and ask why you feel the need to walk around carrying a rifle (they never noticed my pistol in a shoulder holster). You're also about to pass out from dehydration, because you decided to carry a heavy rifle instead of a pistol and an extra water bottle.

Still think a rifle *always* beats a pistol?

Different situations need different weapons.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by Archhealer:
In current real world US of A, in most states, if you haven't got a criminal record, it's relatively easy to get licensed to carry rifles/shotguns. A bit more difficult, but not much, to get licensed for a handgun, or revolver. SMGs, Assault weapons, and the like are very, very difficult to get licensed for, unless you're millitary, a dealer, or occasinally law enforcement.

Actually, in most states, you don't need any kind of license to carry rifles, shotguns, etc. There may be prohibitions against 'intimidation' that are used to discourage the carryiong of firearms openly. Most states do require some sort of lecense to carry a concealed weapon.

Depending on what state you live in, it actually relatively easy to get a tax stamp that allows you to own a machinegun, silencer or other so called class 3 weapon. I own two myself - an SMG and a short barreled shotgun. It took filling out a form, paying $200 per item and waiting a few months while my application was processed by the Federal bureaucracy.

In the 3I, apparently you can go to any dealer, pay you money, and walk out with whatever your little heart desires.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Corejob:
Indeed, the Marches are likely to bear more resemblance to the TV and Movie US of the 1860-1890s, with the more restrictive planets resembling the East, and a good potion of the planets very much like Abilene, Deadwood, Dodge city and Tombstone.

Makes the Marches sound even more like the Firefly setting...

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Corejob:
In the 3I, apparently you can go to any dealer, pay you money, and walk out with whatever your little heart desires.

Well, depending on local law. While it's legal to operate an arms store in SPA territory, where you can sell pretty much any weapons you want to, it's also legal for the planetary government to forbid you from exiting the starport with those weapons, and it's within the discretion of the SPA administrator to shut you down.

 

[Todg]

Yes, indeed. The rule of men, not laws. How you view the 3I will obviously effect your game. My vision of the Spinward Marches definitely places it in the 'Firefly' category.

 

[sinistral]

I would think that military weapons up to about TL12 would be readily available to starfaring characters - after all there's a balkanised Amber Zone a few weeks journey from any world in the Marches. Consider the current day - in some 3rd world countries you can get assault rifles etc in street markets, but it's mostly 1960's or local stock.
As long as you keep it on your ship or in bond at the starport, anything goes. This is how I allow MOB's.

Service weapons- IMTU Merchants - shotgun. Scouts - SMG. Other - Blade/Pistol/Rifle. Army - ACR. Navy - snub pistol. Marines - Cutlass and laser carbine.

Read "Glory Road" by Robert Heinlein for the justification of a sword.

In the settled worlds, you'd get the civilian equivalent, like the singleshot AR's available to Americans today, and "Citizen Soldiers" like the present-day countries where reservists have AR's at home.

I make an arbitrary cap at TL12 to make acquiring advanced weapons an adventure seed.

 

[sinistral]

For the Navy, a "gun" is a crew-served weapon, usually in a bay.

 

[Anthony]

There's no question that the Marches are supposed to be a frontier territory, though considering the region was first settled a thousand years ago and has been completely colonized for hundreds of years, this is somewhat odd.

 

[Todg]

It's just the frontier attitude. I can think of several areas on earth that have been settle for a very long time, that are still very frontiersy.

 

[MrMorden]

Rifle v Pistol: Yes, a pistol is very limted as a weapon, but it is unmatched when you simply need to be armed all the time, and don't want to (or can't for legal reasons) carry something obvious. A rifle of some type is always to be preferred.

Service weapons:

Marines: Gauss Rifle. A squad will typically have a support member with PGMP-12.

Army: ACR. Squad support member with LMG or PGMP-12.

Navy: Rarely anything other than autopistol. In case of boarding parties (projecting or repelling), Assault Rifles or ACRs may be issued.

Merchants: Autopistols, Revolvers, Shotguns, Carbines.

Scouts: Typically Autopistol, Assault Rifle in dangerous or unstable conditions.

 

[Todg]

Why would the army or navy carry lower tech weapons? Book 4 has the gauss rifle as standard equipment for all non-powered Imperial troops. Remember that the typical minimum for Imperial troops is TL12. Frankly, the ACR isn't all that useful a weapon.

Naval personnel can be expected to be going up agains, at the very least, cloth armor (vacc suit). Besides, from a logistical point, why would you have two different types of weapons and ammunition on the same ship for essentially one service? Arming Naval personnel with assault rifles while on board TL12-15 ships is right up their with flintlocks on aircraft carriers.

As for the scouts, a pistol is going to be pretty useless, unless your scouts are spending a lot of time in urban environments. IMTU, at least, scouts spend most of their times on relatively primitive, low pop worlds. Natives and animals are their most likely threat. handguns have marginal stopping power against even relatively small game and have poor accuracy beyodn a few meters. Their only advantage is that they are portable.

Merchants are going to carry whatever they feel like - anything from a onld revolver with green bullets, to state of the art - depending on how much of a weapons enthusiast they are, or what kind of ports they frequent.

 

[tucker2]

I've been tryin' to figure a way to communicate how I feel about Service weapons as they relate to this thread. I feel the Navy and other "non-grunt" Services are getting short-shrift, particularly in a "smallship Traveler" universe.

I dunno, I was watching The Sand Pebbles the other night and thinking about this thread. The USN sailors on that gunboat on the Yangtze sure were well-armed, and nary a marine in sight. I see IN ships operating similiarly, equipped to handle things on their own-- and not always having the luxury of marines aboard. See what I'm saying?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

One big difference, tucker: a gunboat isn't an enclosed vehicle. It makes sense to arm guys heavily when they're standing on an open deck; not so much when they're in the bowels of a starship with nuclear missiles and x-ray lasers flying about.

 

[veltyen]

Naval "Shore Patrol" (SP) are the other group that conduct boarding inspections IMTU. Signature weapon is a laser carbine, though shotguns(*) are also common. I use T20 which limits naval personel using automatic weapons to some extent.

The signature naval personal weapon IMTU is nothing. Officers tend to carry sidearms (auto/laser/gauss pistols). SP's carry the above mentioned weapons. Basic naval personal generally don't carry a weapon.

(*) The shotguns in this case tend to be large bore multipurpose weapons. Options of a variety of grenades, accelerator rounds (effectively snub), goo rounds, as well as more normal shotgun rounds. More a support weapon then a line weapon. Heavier versions mounted on pintles/tripods are used for crowd control.

 

[tucker2]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
One big difference, tucker: a gunboat isn't an enclosed vehicle. It makes sense to arm guys heavily when they're standing on an open deck; not so much when they're in the bowels of a starship with nuclear missiles and x-ray lasers flying about.

Well yeah. That's a given right? I'm talking about the need for the Pebbles to act on their own-- the rest of the US Navy was elsewhere. Likewise, IN ships are little worlds unto themselves, and must have the ability to deal with things autonomously.

Marines or no, IN needs well-armed shore parties, need to be able to "dismount" the Empire. I suppose in the canon Traveller universe the Navy having any sort of small-arm is slightly ridiculous, but IMO a smallship universe would be more flavored like c. 1800 Age of Sail or something.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Shore parties, sure. But, that doesn't normally entail FGMPs and loads of Gauss rifles, IMHO anyway. If you need that, its not a shore party, its an invasion!