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Standard Sized Staterooms

Doh! I'd only read page two when I posted that last item.

"Fold into what?"
Well, fold into a false wall cavity a few inches deep. If enough items are folded away all over the wall surface, the slight reduction in room dimensions would be worth it.

Dirtside style furniture might work if it could be magnetically or otherwise clamped to the floor. (electromagnet with inertial switch to automatically clamp it when the gravity drops?)

Heyy! my freshers are popular. ;)

Ok, *&$!@ censors! how about putting her in the shower with a (sort of) frosted screen?
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Hey Andrew, as I recall you are a Mod around here these days, what is the TOS concerning her turning around? (Not that I would post it, but I am curious.
)
A good rule of thumb is: "if you have to ask if it's okay, it probably isn't".

*I* have no objection to her turning round, but with my Mod's hat on I'd have to say you've gone about as far as you should.
 
Originally posted by Icosahedron:
These cabins look about what I would expect. As someone mentioned earlier, The colour scheme is enough to make an agoraphobic scream to get out, but obviously you're limited by the software and cinematic 'norms'. I see cabins being white or vibrant colours, lots of bright lights, mirrored walls and plasma/holographic screens. All furniture would be fold-up or pull-out, including the bunks, probably.

IMTU, the fresher is a combination shower/WC about a metre square. The pan and basin fold away, comprising a hard rim and a soft plastic bowl that can be replaced after each trip. The appliances fold up and click into place something like an inverted umbrella.

Are you sure the shower is big enough? I mean, shouldn't we see if the girl can actually take a shower in there?
From bottom to top. I had to resize the shower so it was actually big enough. The one that comes with this set (And the way it is arranged in the set.) is too small to fit a child into and where it is located ensures that not even a child could actually get into it.

As for showing that scene, I think that might be just crossing the line. (Though the shower door is more opaque than it appears so you can't see much of anything anyway.
)

Again with folding plumbing. Fold it into what? You only have two bulkheads in every stateroom. (And a bulkhead isn't all that thick anyway.) And how often do you want to have to replace all those hoses? In Traveller, depending on which version you are using, and where you are adventuring, you will find that at least half the worlds are TL8-. And trying to fix a high tech toilet with a low tech solution while a funny thing to roleplay, would be very bad in a practical sense. Things that don't have to be high tech probably shouldn't be anything that can't be replaced, at least temporarily, with a low tech solution. Obviously some things have to be high tech. (Fusion Plants, Jump Drives, weapons, etc.) But TL15 plumbing? Unitl you get to practical matter transport, you might have better materials but you are still going to have to rely on pipes. Pipes that fold and bend, particularily in walls, have issues.

How many times can you fold a hose and put a weight on it to make a corner flat, then straighten it out again before you would consider that hose unsafe for sewer water, especially if it was in the walls of your house?
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Hey Andrew, as I recall you are a Mod around here these days, what is the TOS concerning her turning around? (Not that I would post it, but I am curious.
)
A good rule of thumb is: "if you have to ask if it's okay, it probably isn't".

*I* have no objection to her turning round, but with my Mod's hat on I'd have to say you've gone about as far as you should.
</font>[/QUOTE]Now see I might have finished taking her shirt off without turning her around.
I always thought that a good rule of thumb was that if it you don't show what would generally be covered by a swimsuit then you are alright.
Though a Thong Bikini is definitely pushing it.
 
Originally posted by Icosahedron:
Doh! I'd only read page two when I posted that last item.

"Fold into what?"
Well, fold into a false wall cavity a few inches deep. If enough items are folded away all over the wall surface, the slight reduction in room dimensions would be worth it.

Dirtside style furniture might work if it could be magnetically or otherwise clamped to the floor. (electromagnet with inertial switch to automatically clamp it when the gravity drops?)

Heyy! my freshers are popular. ;)

Ok, *&$!@ censors! how about putting her in the shower with a (sort of) frosted screen?
Cross posting.
The issue with folding things into the wall and the sizes of these rooms means you can't easily reconfigure the rooms. I thought that went all the way back to LBB2 but I can't find it this morning and don't have enough time to properly search. Something about couples taking adjoining staterooms and connecting them.

I had a simpler solution to electro magnets. Magnets with little levers that lowered them to floor level when you got the furniture into place. Then flip the lever when you want to move the furniture again. With teh magnets lifted an inch or so above the floor they would exert a strong enough attraction to keep them generally in the vicinity of the floor but to be safe just lower the magnets as a matter of habit.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
try modeling these. top-down view. #4 is double-bunks with stand-up lockers. #1 to #3 are single bunks, with the locker under the bunk like in the united states navy. the staterooms are 3m x 3m, with a 1.5m x 1.5m extension holding the toilet/water/air recycling facility.

if you can, try putting a 5'6'' inch female (ordinary, in coveralls) and a 6' guy in one. I'd love to see how they fit.

http://members.aol.com/flykiller/traveller/temp/states.gif
I took a good look at them. I do have one issue with them, and I am going to modify them to cover that issue before I do these. With the door all the way to the end of the wall instead of in the middle about a bunk width up from the top and bottom walls, staterooms 2 and 4 lose what little wall space they had. So I am going to move the door to the same position I have it in my 3x3 cabins. (I hope that is alright.)

It is actually similar to a concept I had. That was to shave a half meter from each room and put the "fresher" in between them and have it shared between those two cabins. That way you still have 2 tons per cabin to dedicate to common areas.
 
OK. because she seems to be a popular character I did render the shot I did to make sure that the shower was actually big enough. I am not going to post it. (It doesn't really add anything to the discussion.) But if you want a copy, PM me with your email address and I will email you one.
 
as sid views the latest rendition you hear:

oooh..ni..i..i....

AKKK...OMG....AHHHHH...cough cough...gasp!!


then a THUD....
 
I am sure he can turn her around for us but she would have to be wearing that lycra duty jumpsuit and I know that nobody would be interested in that as this purely technical discussion about architecture.
 
I took a good look at them. I do have one issue with them, and I am going to modify them to cover that issue before I do these. With the door all the way to the end of the wall instead of in the middle about a bunk width up from the top and bottom walls, staterooms 2 and 4 lose what little wall space they had. So I am going to move the door to the same position I have it in my 3x3 cabins. (I hope that is alright.)</font>[/QUOTE]as you like, and thanks, but they're supposed to be sliding doors that go into the cabin partitions themselves. they should occupy no swing space.

regarding "fold-up" stuff, it's usually fragile and in any case it wears out. when something breaks on a starship you can't run down to walmart to buy replacements, so everything should be as unbreakable and have as few moving parts as possible.

as for sharing the toilet, that can lead to a lot of ... interpersonal conflict. I'd rather have a bunk and a private fresher than a captain's stateroom that shares the loo.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />http://members.aol.com/flykiller/traveller/temp/states.gif
I took a good look at them. I do have one issue with them, and I am going to modify them to cover that issue before I do these. With the door all the way to the end of the wall instead of in the middle about a bunk width up from the top and bottom walls, staterooms 2 and 4 lose what little wall space they had. So I am going to move the door to the same position I have it in my 3x3 cabins. (I hope that is alright.)</font>[/QUOTE]as you like, and thanks, but they're supposed to be sliding doors that go into the cabin partitions themselves. they should occupy no swing space.

regarding "fold-up" stuff, it's usually fragile and in any case it wears out. when something breaks on a starship you can't run down to walmart to buy replacements, so everything should be as unbreakable and have as few moving parts as possible.

as for sharing the toilet, that can lead to a lot of ... interpersonal conflict. I'd rather have a bunk and a private fresher than a captain's stateroom that shares the loo.
</font>[/QUOTE]It isn't a question of door swing space. It is a question of room to get through the door. IN those two staterooms, in particular, the only useable wall space you have is the wall with the bed. There is a little space beside the end of hte bed on both perpendicular walls but not much. The wall opposite the bed wall might be OK for a Flatscreen Monitor but that is about the extent of what you can put there. That is why I have an issue with it. It will look very similar to the pictures of the small cabin but without the bathroom component.

The reason this is going to take a little time is getting the wall scales and the floor and ceiling scales right takes some time. Adding the extra corners is also interesting.
 
I don't have the sexy grephics, but I used a number of stateroom designs here.

What works well for me is a 3x3 meter cabin with a 1.5x1.5 m 'fresher. That 'fresher contains a washstand, toilet, and shower- tight, but usable. Staterooms have a desk, chair, and wardrobe. Staterooms that might be used for high passages have queen-sized beds. Other staterooms have two twin beds or pullman berths.

That takes up 2.5 dtons, leaving 1.5 dtons for the common area.
 
I like the last rendering the best for what I would use as a crew cabin, i.e. double occupancy. About the only reason I could see that you would want to keep that 2.75 meter headroom is to allow for the bunkbeds. It might be nice to have that much extra headroom but it is expensive as far as the cubage would go. I would use this extra room to create a more comfortable fresher unit. Remember, small size really means that the room will only be used for sleeping and a place to get away from everybody else for a short time.

The worry about the wear and tear on fold-up furniture, etc., isn't something to worry about. Maintainence is called for in all the versions of the game and why should this maintainence not include keeping the ship fixtures in good shape. After all, the engineers can replace fusion power plants in a very short time but a broken gymbal, hinge or pipe, would result in chaos on ship because they couldn't fix it?

Nor are the main bulkheads reconfigurable, which is where the built-in fixtures would be. If you want them to be, it would be much more expensive in both weight and cost more than fixed bulkheads, since the supports into which these reconfigurable walls would fit, because the ship's structural integrity can't be dependent upon somebody deciding to move a wall at the wrong time.

Nor are these bulkhead walls thin partitions, like office cubicles. Nobody paying even middle passage, is going to want to be forced to listen to somebody using the facitilies in the next cabin. Most hotels/motels today generally have their bathrooms up against corridors and/or each other, minimizing sound. The latter also allows the facilities to share pipes for water/sewage.


In addition, the electronics being built into the bulkheads would provide additional physical security for the passenger terminals. The thought that simply putting a terminal in a cabin would result in serious security problems is ridiculous. The room is already wired into the main computer for such things as water, power, atmosphere, fire and even steward assistance.

Since every version of the game has included what in essence are limiltless wall screens, simply being painted onto walls, why not in a spaceship. With every wall space possible covered in this manner, you could simply put a scenery disk into a player and be surrounded by sun kissed plains, a lake filled with pretty young things or even deep space for those who liked such a view. At the very least, these painted viewers could take the place of physical computer monitors.
 
At the very least, these painted viewers could take the place of physical computer monitors.
And for a more important effect, minimise any claustrophobia felt.

A 2.5m ceiling is fine. 2.75 is more then enough. Most of the houses I have ever lived in have had a 8 foot (2.4m) ceiling, which is pretty standard these days.

Walls should be solid. IMTU each stateroom has a cellular life support system built into the floor and ceiling, which allows anyone in a stateroom the luxury of time during a hull breach, and means that destruction of a single critical life support component does not doom the ship.
 
Various points:

I don't think folding plumbing needs to be any higher than TL8, we can do it now if we want to.
In any case, plumbing that is designed to be replaceable will be made available on low tech worlds (as imports) and in ships stores (along with the toilet roll - nobody wants to use the local Yuckspread leaf).

I don't see why pipes would have to be kinked or squashed to fit in a space several inches deep, and how often does your garden hose or the pipe to your shower head break? Your washing machine is plumbed with flexible pipes, why not your sink?


Most of the plumbing would be integral to the fresher and moved with it, other folding devices would again be modular, like wall-cupboards, and could be re-arranged. I agree partition walls should not be too thin - two inch minimum I'd say.

I have modular life support per bulkhead section (10 - 20 cabins) and separate LS for bridge, Engineering, etc.
 
Originally posted by Lochlaber:
I like the last rendering the best for what I would use as a crew cabin, i.e. double occupancy. About the only reason I could see that you would want to keep that 2.75 meter headroom is to allow for the bunkbeds. It might be nice to have that much extra headroom but it is expensive as far as the cubage would go. I would use this extra room to create a more comfortable fresher unit. Remember, small size really means that the room will only be used for sleeping and a place to get away from everybody else for a short time.

The worry about the wear and tear on fold-up furniture, etc., isn't something to worry about. Maintainence is called for in all the versions of the game and why should this maintainence not include keeping the ship fixtures in good shape. After all, the engineers can replace fusion power plants in a very short time but a broken gymbal, hinge or pipe, would result in chaos on ship because they couldn't fix it?

Nor are the main bulkheads reconfigurable, which is where the built-in fixtures would be. If you want them to be, it would be much more expensive in both weight and cost more than fixed bulkheads, since the supports into which these reconfigurable walls would fit, because the ship's structural integrity can't be dependent upon somebody deciding to move a wall at the wrong time.

Nor are these bulkhead walls thin partitions, like office cubicles. Nobody paying even middle passage, is going to want to be forced to listen to somebody using the facitilies in the next cabin. Most hotels/motels today generally have their bathrooms up against corridors and/or each other, minimizing sound. The latter also allows the facilities to share pipes for water/sewage.


In addition, the electronics being built into the bulkheads would provide additional physical security for the passenger terminals. The thought that simply putting a terminal in a cabin would result in serious security problems is ridiculous. The room is already wired into the main computer for such things as water, power, atmosphere, fire and even steward assistance.

Since every version of the game has included what in essence are limiltless wall screens, simply being painted onto walls, why not in a spaceship. With every wall space possible covered in this manner, you could simply put a scenery disk into a player and be surrounded by sun kissed plains, a lake filled with pretty young things or even deep space for those who liked such a view. At the very least, these painted viewers could take the place of physical computer monitors.
OK First point is Headroom. I have considered lower ceilings. In fact I usually only allow 2.5m (It just happend that the walls that I used come as 2.75m and I didn't feel like doing the calculations. However thinking about it. There are many Aslan and less Sydites living in the Imperium as honest Imperial Citizens. I am sure there are other races that are similar in stature. These are all humanoid and would normally expect to be passengers on standard designs. The rules don't make any distinction in their stateroom cubbage. However what may be comfortable for someone that is 183cm in height, isn't going to work for someone that averages 225 cm to 250 cm in height. Further to give a feeling of spaciousness in a room, simply raise the ceiling slightly. Current architectural thinking for new homes is 9' ceilings.

OK lets fold up furniture for a minute. You say we have flexible pipes. That washers use flexible hoses. True. They do use flexible hoses. But you don't tend to move them around and you certainly don't fold them on a regular basis. But lets skip that for a minute and get to the furniture itself.

The only two bulkheads in most staterooms is the Ceiling and the floor. Bulkheads are designed as structural elements and have minimal openings in them for structural and atmospheric integretity.

Lets make the walls thicker for the normal stateroom walls and increase the thickness of the bulkheads to accomodate folding furniture. Why not.

Without including counterweights, and remembering that these cabin walls are now, while not srtuctural, load bearing. They also contain plumbing and electronics. Also rembering that you are adding to both sides of the centerline of these walls and insulating the space between the two halves. How thick is a comfortable mattress? What are the dimensions of a reasonable sink? How about a useable toilet? You can't build this stuff into a bulkhead so you have to add it to the thickness of a bulkhead. Oh and are we folding out this bed as a Small single or a nice Queen sized bed? (And how far off the floor is it when it is open? and is it opening so you can get in on both sides?)

Your walls, conservatively, are now, 20-25cm per side, plus the structure of around 10cm down the center. Your room just went from 3m x 3m to 2.5m x 2.5 m some Aslan wouldn't even be able to lie down in this room.

Now to this add the maintenance hassles of not having fixed furniture and what do you really gain? Having fixed furniture makes more sense in the economic long term. It doesn't take up that much more space and is generally more comfortable and easier to use. Besides there are items that you can't fold up into a wall. (Storeage lockers for one.) So you might as well build around them and keep most things fixed. Sure fold up a table, they are pretty much flat anyway, have dual use chairs, flatscreen monitors. these save space without eating into your limited cubbage. But folding something up that is 30cm on its small side and losing that space all along that wall to save 60cm is not an efficient solution.
 
Originally posted by Icosahedron:
Various points:

I don't think folding plumbing needs to be any higher than TL8, we can do it now if we want to.
In any case, plumbing that is designed to be replaceable will be made available on low tech worlds (as imports) and in ships stores (along with the toilet roll - nobody wants to use the local Yuckspread leaf).

I don't see why pipes would have to be kinked or squashed to fit in a space several inches deep, and how often does your garden hose or the pipe to your shower head break? Your washing machine is plumbed with flexible pipes, why not your sink?


Most of the plumbing would be integral to the fresher and moved with it, other folding devices would again be modular, like wall-cupboards, and could be re-arranged. I agree partition walls should not be too thin - two inch minimum I'd say.

I have modular life support per bulkhead section (10 - 20 cabins) and separate LS for bridge, Engineering, etc.
Lets start by defining Several inches deep. A minimal sized usuable sink is (excluding plumbing) what 30cm x 30cm x 15 cm? (12" x 12" x 6") Add the drain which will have a fixed trap in it before you can get to flexible, and you are, at a minimum of 30cm x 30cm x 30 cm. A usable toilet is more than twice that size. If you fold it into a wall what have you actually saved? Remember that if you fold it into the wall, you are actually adding to the thickness of the wall, like my complaint about doors on the standard deckplans in the IRIS valve thread it has to go somewhere. (And you are still going to have to have some thickness between your side of the wall and your neighbors.) You have also just turned the wall into load bearing.

Now add the headaches of things that move break more often than things that don't move, what economically, are you gaining?
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
I don't have the sexy grephics, but I used a number of stateroom designs here.

What works well for me is a 3x3 meter cabin with a 1.5x1.5 m 'fresher. That 'fresher contains a washstand, toilet, and shower- tight, but usable. Staterooms have a desk, chair, and wardrobe. Staterooms that might be used for high passages have queen-sized beds. Other staterooms have two twin beds or pullman berths.

That takes up 2.5 dtons, leaving 1.5 dtons for the common area.
Bob these are pretty much the same as those that I will be working on today for a 3D view for Flykiller. Once I have the first set, rearranging the furniture for yours is a simple job. However, your beds are either short or they don't really fit with enough room to comfortably move around them with the rest of the furniture in the room.
 
Since plenty of people want to fold up the furniture or the plumbing into the wall, can someone please point me to a non-cartoon, TV series, or movie where this was actually done?
 
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