Standard Sized Staterooms

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Aramis:
[QB] Re Folding commodes: We need a bowl which extends at least 30cm, and needs to be (for typical male droop) at least 10cm deep, and probably at least 20cm wide. So, adding a drain pipe, we add another 5cm. The toilet

You do NOT need a trap; ships are designed for 0-G functionality as a safety precaution. Every fixture will have a valve system, not a trap. Probably a ball-cock.

Two reasons for folding the toilet: One, it cuts the extrusion from 30+ (preferably almost 50cm) to about 15. Two, it means that you have contained the contaminated area in case of gravity fluctuation, failure, or hard maneuver. (It also means you won't see any brown stains.)

It doesn't need to fold "into" the wall, just up to the wall. Likewise, the sink is similar in needed depth, and the width is useful. The "fixtures" can be spigots mounted on the wall, which are inside when

Also, toilets do NOT need a tank. Typical Alaskan household fill piping is 1" ID 1/32" wall copper supply. More than adequate for most purposes if the pressure is controlled correctly. The toilet can have a local sump, which then presurrizes, that's a mere 15cm deep off the wall.

Here's a D-plan of a 1m fresher. The bars are 1m, marked in 10cm chunks. The lilac area is the plumbing zone; the fresher connects to a built into-the-floor set of 5 conduits: Power, Hot Water, Cold Water, Waste Water, Data. Green roll-away door (rolling point shown.)
Shown with toilet folded down and not. Sink could be inset in collum; sink with watertight cabinet doors could double as a garmet washer...

OK How high is the Sink and how high is the toilet? There is nothing stopping you from having a tank, though there is indeed little reason for having one. If you do have one have it between the top of the cubicle and hte bulkhead. No issue there. the Trap is to actually keep water where it belongs but also, at least as important to give things that get sent down the drain, that don't necessarily belong there a place to stop. (Though not as effective in a zero-g environment.) But you shouldn't be using these facilities, if they are water based in a Zero-G environment in the first place. The problem with folding plumbing isn't that it can't be done, but that it adds unneccessary complexity, maintenance and cost to the system, and the results don't add that much functionality to outweigh the penalties. (Regardless of the TL.) The two exceptions to the folding items that make sense, are a table tdesigned to suplement a desk as a place to take a meal and then have it stowed when the dishes are removed, and/or an upper bunk for rooms that are primarily designed for single occupancy. Only if you have a suitable storage solution for the bedding for that upper bunk and that second passenger in the event one is carried.

What I was saying earlier is that if you extend the size of your shower slightly there is little to no reason to fold anything.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't have the luxury of posting simple room pictures. (I don't have the web space for it.) Besides they aren't as much fun to do, nor are they asthetically pleasing. (Probably why it is turning out to be difficult to do Flykiller's pics.)

then just skip mine and never mind. thanks for the effort, really, but I'm with aramis. </font>[/QUOTE]The funny thing is I have the rooms, I just don't have the room situated yet with people. They work alot like the 3x3 room I have already posted. They gain some openess and floor space but because you have to get through the doors they don't gain much useable space. It is an interesting study. I am just trying to be aesthetically pleasing with it.

 

[aramis]

The folded pic shows the depth overall. The sink would be directly above the commode.

As to catching "Stuff that doesn't belong", an in-line-filter trap with ball-cocks on either end is a better thing than an S-trap. S Traps fail if not regularly used, as well.

I'm positing a system not unlike one NASA had drafted for an orbital station.... dry-bowl, water flushed, localized partial vacuum drain, then positive pressure flow to sewage treatment.

The folding allows a smaller footprint. If, however, you want to expand the model, you can put two with common pillars, and a door that retracts away (into the wall) allowing a shared shower...

I would suspect there would be a LS connect, and the shower head should be on a hose, and not engage unless the shower door is sealed. In 0-G, add LS needs to be in use.

 

[TheEngineer]

Err, we really deal with toilet design in Traveller now, do we ?

 

[Icosahedron]

Looks like a good design, Aramis. Yes, these things should fold against the wall rather than into it.

I don't understand how the door works, maybe I'm just not familiar enough with shower design, but the best system I've seen is the corner entry, where two adjacent sides have half width sliding doors, and when closed you don't lose 20 odd percent of the footprint as you seem to do here.

I disagree about the females, I see nothing offensive in the human body. Personally, I'd draw the line at fornication, but that's just a matter of personal taste, to which everyone is entitled, and of course the best thing is to upset nobody if you can avoid it. As the man says, this thread is about architecture, not soft ⌧. The figures are there to show scale, and they do that quite effectively with their clothes on.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Aramis:
The folded pic shows the depth overall. The sink would be directly above the commode.

As to catching "Stuff that doesn't belong", an in-line-filter trap with ball-cocks on either end is a better thing than an S-trap. S Traps fail if not regularly used, as well.

I'm positing a system not unlike one NASA had drafted for an orbital station.... dry-bowl, water flushed, localized partial vacuum drain, then positive pressure flow to sewage treatment.

The folding allows a smaller footprint. If, however, you want to expand the model, you can put two with common pillars, and a door that retracts away (into the wall) allowing a shared shower...

I would suspect there would be a LS connect, and the shower head should be on a hose, and not engage unless the shower door is sealed. In 0-G, add LS needs to be in use.

I do like the design. Though I still would like to know how high the sink is and how high the toilet is? For a comfortable to use sink and toilet I would suggest that you would be using two corners instead of stacking them.


I would also suggest that the floor and/or the ceiling would have, battery backed up, suction, so in the event of loss of gravity, the water supply is cut off and any loose water is sucked out of the compartment.

 

[BetterThanLife]

By the way, as a note on Flykiller's staterooms. Just to let you guys know the issue is making it look right given the parameters. (Not the lack of skin showing, that is easy.)

The requirement was a 5'6" "Normal woman" wearing coveralls and a 6' male no specification on clothes. I have several female models to choose from but unfortunately none of them are 5'6" so scaling is an issue.

Second issue is how is a "Normal Woman" defined? No two women I know are the same, "normal" would depend on location, occupation, ethnic origin, etc.

Third Issue, is put her in coveralls. While I do have coveralls one set is constructed for a figure that I hardly use because she has proportion issues, and the construction of the set don't allow me to make the changes to fix those proportion issues and still fit. The second set is open without a way to close it, though it does include a sports bra built into the coveralls. (I was definitely disappointed with that purchase simply because of that issue.) The other problem with this is that coveralls look wrong in the scene. "Normal" people don't wear coveralls to relax in their room. Coveralls are generally tough material that resists tearing and penetration by liquids. That combination doesn't make for comfortable clothes. They are worn by mechanics, factory workers and the like, but are generally taken off before leaving the job site. (They are dirty after a day's work.) So Coveralls working in the engine room, sure. Even fixing the plumbing, no problem, and I had considered that. However the furniture doesn't really allow positioning for maintenance.

So those are the issues. Now Flykiller said don't bother doing them. I think he was concerned that I might offend or that I would balk from not showing skin.

Now if people are interested in seeing how those rooms work, I am sure I can come up with a decent compromise, that would be acceptable to Disney. (After all only one of the pictures is even suggestive of a PG rating the rest are certainly candidates for a G rating.) However if there is no interest then I won't bother finishing them. After all while the design is interesting it isn't in any of the canon plans that I have seen and doesn't IMHO offer enough of an advantage to worry about for MTU.

 

[far-trader]

First, because I keep forgetting when I mean to close with it, cool pics BTL, even if a bit risque. A sense of the dimensions is good and welcome. Even if we disagree a bit over the details.

As to those details and most if not all your concerns, I do address them in the text I linked earlier. Of course some of them were left unspoken to though not ignored. It's good to see you thinking about them too. I went so far as to do a quick rough architectural drawing of my stateroom way back to be sure I covered many of the same issues. Not down to the last nut and bolt but including main structural and mechanical parts. Not sure where that is now, but it would have to be scanned in if I do find it, being it was old fashioned paper and pencil.

Now then, some issues not yet addressed, or not fully...

...and perhaps not needed either but...

You mentioned aliens being ignored or uncomfortable. That's true but these are largely human designs not much concerned with catering to the rare alien. Ships that did more business/work with aliens would be different to accomodate such. There's an avenue that bears exploring.

In that vein, when I first looked at making the fresher work I briefly toyed with a squat toilet design. It's got a lot going for it and could more easily accomodate aliens. But the western bias won out since I figured most players would expect it.

I'm of the school of thought that the stateroom is a functional space and design it as such. It's not meant to be too multi-functional. The primary usage is to change clothes, sleep, and attend to personal hygiene. It is small (cramped even) for anything else and the occupant(s) are expected to spend most of thier time aboard in the common rooms.

As to your ideas of a common fresher I'd say no. As an addition to the private ones in each stateroom sure, but not as a replacement. The example of airplane bathrooms made me grin, nobody takes week long airplane flights

At least not without a stop-over and a hotel stay. Even in the days of long slow flights that included sleepers it was only hours aboard (and far fewer passengers).

As for heights of sinks and bowls, standard works on the same wall so there's no reason to put them on different ones to fold them away. I looked at it in my layout and in fact they could be adjustable to the user within a range and still not interfere with each other. I really can't see how you can't see the utility of folding them away when not in use.

To answer where does one keep their Combat Armor, Laser Rifle, and assorted junk, again the stateroom is not big enough for a lot of stuff so it'll be in the cargo hold (as baggage allowance) for passengers or in the ship's lockers for crew. Of course if the person doesn't mind the crowding and the Captain is ok with it then one might fill the stateroom with all kinds of clutter. I just hope the AG doesn't cut out if it's not all secured.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Err, we really deal with toilet design in Traveller now, do we ?

Sure And why not

At least we know the requirements and physics so it's not all made up like discussions about jump drives and gravity manipulation...

...until we get into the recycling part of it

 

[flykiller]

Now Flykiller said don't bother doing them.

hey, I just wanted to see the rooms. but if they're to be an excuse for adolescent fantasy, and if they're not fun or aesthetically pleasing without it and without discussions about it, then yeah, don't bother. I wish I hadn't posted the deckplan.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by far-trader:
First, because I keep forgetting when I mean to close with it, cool pics BTL, even if a bit risque. A sense of the dimensions is good and welcome. Even if we disagree a bit over the details.

As to those details and most if not all your concerns, I do address them in the text I linked earlier. Of course some of them were left unspoken to though not ignored. It's good to see you thinking about them too. I went so far as to do a quick rough architectural drawing of my stateroom way back to be sure I covered many of the same issues. Not down to the last nut and bolt but including main structural and mechanical parts. Not sure where that is now, but it would have to be scanned in if I do find it, being it was old fashioned paper and pencil.

Now then, some issues not yet addressed, or not fully...

...and perhaps not needed either but...

You mentioned aliens being ignored or uncomfortable. That's true but these are largely human designs not much concerned with catering to the rare alien. Ships that did more business/work with aliens would be different to accomodate such. There's an avenue that bears exploring.

In that vein, when I first looked at making the fresher work I briefly toyed with a squat toilet design. It's got a lot going for it and could more easily accomodate aliens. But the western bias won out since I figured most players would expect it.

I'm of the school of thought that the stateroom is a functional space and design it as such. It's not meant to be too multi-functional. The primary usage is to change clothes, sleep, and attend to personal hygiene. It is small (cramped even) for anything else and the occupant(s) are expected to spend most of thier time aboard in the common rooms.

As to your ideas of a common fresher I'd say no. As an addition to the private ones in each stateroom sure, but not as a replacement. The example of airplane bathrooms made me grin, nobody takes week long airplane flights

At least not without a stop-over and a hotel stay. Even in the days of long slow flights that included sleepers it was only hours aboard (and far fewer passengers).

As for heights of sinks and bowls, standard works on the same wall so there's no reason to put them on different ones to fold them away. I looked at it in my layout and in fact they could be adjustable to the user within a range and still not interfere with each other. I really can't see how you can't see the utility of folding them away when not in use.

To answer where does one keep their Combat Armor, Laser Rifle, and assorted junk, again the stateroom is not big enough for a lot of stuff so it'll be in the cargo hold (as baggage allowance) for passengers or in the ship's lockers for crew. Of course if the person doesn't mind the crowding and the Captain is ok with it then one might fill the stateroom with all kinds of clutter. I just hope the AG doesn't cut out if it's not all secured.

<EDIT> I almost to thank you for the kind words of my pics. decided to add that here at the top.

</EDIT>

The common "Fresher" isn't that weird an idea. Even newer Military barracks have done away with them, outside of basic training, but it hasn't been all that long since they have been done away with. Many military barracks, older hotels that haven't gone through a complete remodel, college dorms, are all examples of places where people stay for extended periods and share facitilies. In the not too distant past that list was a bit longer. Most of those are shared by several rooms, I was suggesting sharing them with just one other room. This also makes it easy for adjoining rooms to be connected for couples or families travelling together. Otherwise you are losing even more space in an already cramped room for an additional door.


The question of height came from the overhead view that Aramis did where the Sink and toilet are stacked. There isn't generally enough of a height difference between a Sink and Toilet even a compact toilet, to allow that. I agree they could be put on the same wall, but not in that diagram.

You do gain a little bit of floor space by folding things, but that is floor space you can walk on, but not generally use for another purpose. It does improve the openess of the room however it doesn't really add much usable space. I am not saying that making the room appear more spacious isn't a worthy goal in and of itself but on the balance sheet with added cost, complexity and maintenance, is it enough of a goal to offset the disadvantages?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now Flykiller said don't bother doing them.

hey, I just wanted to see the rooms. but if they're to be an excuse for adolescent fantasy, and if they're not fun or aesthetically pleasing without it and without discussions about it, then yeah, don't bother. I wish I hadn't posted the deckplan. </font>[/QUOTE]OK. I have been keeping this to myself, but quite frankly I am tired of having you and Aramis attempt to imply I am some kind of pervert. You may not like my artistic style and that is fine with me. There is absolutely nothing in any of those pictures, that goes beyond a G rating, in one of them, and that is just one, you can infer a PG rating from what might be next, yet for some reason you have to draw conclusions that they are offensive and make disparaging comments and/or implications about my character?

I am no longer going to sit here and be offended without making a comment, quite frankly I am tired of it.

Now if that wasn't your intention to impune my character, then I appologize for misinterpreting your comments. However as I see it, and the continued restating of it, I can't see the way the sniping is going on that it is anything else.

 

[Piper]

One could always use sleeper cars as a model.

As an alternative to conventional toilets, one could consider composting toilets or a higher tech version that flashes the water content away, leaving only dry powder residue.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

C'mon everyone, keep it civil.

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by flykiller:
hey, I just wanted to see the rooms. but if they're to be an excuse for adolescent fantasy,

The whole game's about harmless fantasy ain't it? and who're you callin' adolescent - son?

Keep the pics coming, BTL, they're great and very artistcally done. Keep the clothes on to keep folks' hair on by all means, but if those are perverted I must be a real reprobate! LOL! I think Tinkerbell wore less than that in Peter Pan.
Chill, guys.

PS. I'm calm and somewhat amused, Andrew.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Icosahedron:

Keep the pics coming, BTL, they're great and very artistcally done. Keep the clothes on to keep folks' hair on by all means, but if those are perverted I must be a real reprobate! LOL! I think Tinkerbell wore less than that in Peter Pan.
Chill, guys.

PS. I'm calm and somewhat amused, Andrew.

Thank you. I am currently working on the common room for the Supp-7 Type-S, though I probably won't have it done before Saturday.

 

[parmasson]

I think that using the figures really allows us to really appreciate the sense of scale involved here. I mean just look at the well . . .ummmm….and the errrrr, you know.

 

[flykiller]

I am tired of having you and Aramis attempt to imply I am some kind of pervert.

we didn't.

speaking strictly for myself, I didn't.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I had the pleasure, as a nine-year old, of making an overnight trip in a Pullman compartment. I fondly remember the ingenious collapsing toilet and folding bed. I also lived in two differrent college dorms with common bathrooms.

Tiny, private facilities rock for a day or two and may be OK for a seven-day jump, but for longer I want full-sized, dedicated functions. Even if I have to share.

BTW, even the latest U.S. Navy ships (LPD 17) only have private facilities for the most senior officers. Junior officers share, 2-6 CPOs, and upward of forty crew share a bathroom.

 

[flykiller]

seven sinks, six shower stalls, six toilets, in a head the size of a large living room, for fifty guys. more, when the other heads were closed for cleaning or inspections or malfunctions. on a carrier. ok for a crew, probably not ok for passengers. facilities on a submarine might be a better comparison.

'course the facilities in a ship's head don't include processing, reclaimation/recycling, waste treatment/storage, or water storage. all that is handled elsewhere, or not at all. but a starship's head must include all that, so it's not a good comparison.