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Starports

Ravsv - I was referring to our current RL technology, where keeping an orbital velocity of 17k/sec (isn't that the speed required for earth orbit requirement) in atmo would cost a LOT of gas to defeat all that friction.

A station based on gravitics means it can essentially float in the atmo without using speed to combat gravity.

Am I being silly or is there something to this?
 
Ah, I see what you mean now. Sorry, I misread what you wrote and thought you meant that if a world had a low altitude atmosphere that would somehow make it more difficult to keep a space station in orbit, rather than the sattelite being in orbit in the atmosphere.

What can I say? it's Friday. My mind needs a rest.

Ravs
 
I've been doodling some parkbays, for short-term use of smallish ships (you can *just* squeeze a Subsidised Merchant in).

Ships can VTOL straight in, or land on the runway and taxi into the bay. A lockable warehouse is attached.

parkbays.jpg
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
[QB] I've been doodling some parkbays, for short-term use of smallish ships (you can *just* squeeze a Subsidised Merchant in).

Ships can VTOL straight in, or land on the runway and taxi into the bay. A lockable warehouse is attached.
QUOTE]
Awesome picture! If you don't mind telling, what software do you use?
 
One point for Dan: Is JTAS actually canonical? (No, I don't want to get into any argument). All I'm asking is are these contributions considered sort of 'user articles' and of interest, but not considered particularly binding, or is it considered OTU canon?

I wonder how this matches up to the World Tamer's Guide and World Builder's Handbooks regarding port numbers and types. I remember most high tech, high pop worlds had several starports of their level, I thought, a bunch more at level-1, a bunch more at level-2, etc. So a high tech world with a good port might have Ax2, Bx4, Cx15, etc. plus a whacking pile of ancillary spaceports.

I wonder what makes a) the most sense and b) easily reconcilles with our understanding of the Imperium?

Andrew:

Would it be possible to render the same bay image with louvered roofs for the parkbays? That way you could not only lock up your cargo, but your ship too (security!). Seems like a cheap add on (tracked, louvered door mounted overtop).
 
Would multiple ports make sense? Assuming a world with a decend population (Code 5 and above - 100000 and more) and outside contact

Case a) Low tech world up to TL4

Traffic is likely low due to lack of important export goods. Those worlds can mostly offer food and basic metals/minerals.

On-planet transport is complex up to TL3 since the only major routes are by water. It gets better at TL4 with railroads.

My suggestiong: Multiple low-grade (Class D) starports near the production centers since the locals can not support a repair facility. If the production is very high, there might be a C-class highport for orbital transfers between shuttles and larger ships. This will only happen in a few systems since highports generally produce maintenance problems needing outside spare parts

If the world has a native populace, the starports are likely co-located with harbortowns due to ease of landing, contact to trade routes and the existence of facilities for transient populations.

This is a problem point with the starport classes One would assume the orbital station has refined fuel but no repair capacity rather than the other way round

Case b) Mid tech, TL5 to TL8

With easier mass transports due to advanced rail systems and combustion engines the number of downports can be reduced. At the same time we slowly make the switch from raw materials to processed goods. Again we get the fuel vs. maintenance problem since the locals will be capabel of generating LHyd far earlier than spare parts. I'd upgrade the groundside ports to Class C but reduce their number to one per continent(two for large ones like Afrika or Asia). Late in this period one yard might make the transition to class B for producing local shuttles. Highport remains as above due to the still common maintenance problems. Very late in this phase we might get a Class-D equivalent High Port (Think ISS) more as a prestige object

Case c) Low Stellar Tech, Level 9-11

With Gravitics and extremly fast trains availabel and star travelle getting possibel, most systems will get a singel Class B port at this phase to reduce the off-world cash flow. Depending on the planetary layout minor sub-ports might exist on the other continents. This is likely a ground base installation at first due to lower setup costs. At this phase an orbital station, likely starting from a Class C (again the fuel vs. maintenance problem)
A ground based Class A might exists on a world with a large population and interesting export goods. Those same systems might upgrade the Highport to Class B


Special cases

Balkanised Worlds will likely have a port per nation but likely at a lower level than normal. They will have a better highport, possibly orbiting a moon or an L-Point for political reasons

Industrial Colonies, most likely Belts, will likely have a Class B port for maintenance reasons

Class X ports only exist on worlds without external contact.

Class E ports are early contact facilities or those used every blue moon due to lack of any useful goods. As soon as any regular trade has established, some base facilities (Harbortown) will spring up
 
OMG! Andrew! That's ....just so right! It's exactly how I imagined the berths.

:edit deleted: - note to self - don't post when in cups.

Ravs
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
Would it be possible to render the same bay image with louvered roofs for the parkbays? That way you could not only lock up your cargo, but your ship too (security!). Seems like a cheap add on (tracked, louvered door mounted overtop). [/QB]
I can't see that a flimsy louvred door would increase security over a space-rated hull-and-airlock. In fact, it would just provide cover for nefarious activities.
Again, I'd think the safest way to secure your cargo would be to load/unload it directly, rather than storing it in a nearby warehouse. Of course, if cargo in the warehouse is the responsibility of the starport rather than the trader, that's different.

Just my 2Cr.
 
The louvre doors would provide some cover against the elements. And while I agree that you should take "Cargo of Ship" (Receiver fetches cargo at the ship) as a delivery method, that is not always possibel. OTOH that cargo containers must go out sometimes so you can keep unloading.

Or the subcontractor hears "Drill" and sends a small 1to truck for a pneumatic mining drill including a tracked chassis...

So I like the "berth + small warehouse" concept. Only point I would make is a bigger seperation between the berth in case of an accident. Those walls seem a bit flimsy.
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Only point I would make is a bigger seperation between the berth in case of an accident. Those walls seem a bit flimsy. [/QB]
They're 9m thick at the base (3m at the top), so I wouldn't exactly call them flimsy...
 
Originally posted by Icosahedron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kaladorn:
Would it be possible to render the same bay image with louvered roofs for the parkbays? That way you could not only lock up your cargo, but your ship too (security!). Seems like a cheap add on (tracked, louvered door mounted overtop).
I can't see that a flimsy louvred door would increase security over a space-rated hull-and-airlock. In fact, it would just provide cover for nefarious activities.
Again, I'd think the safest way to secure your cargo would be to load/unload it directly, rather than storing it in a nearby warehouse. Of course, if cargo in the warehouse is the responsibility of the starport rather than the trader, that's different.

Just my 2Cr.
[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Two points:

First, the cargo may have to go into these warehouses to await the arrival of the receiving party. Meanwhile, the ship, especially if it belongs to a line with an office to handle delivery, can be off on its next delivery. Also, the cargo may need to pass customs inspection and excise assessment, so it may need to be in the warehouse until that operation is complete before it can be released to the end recipient.

Second, I don't see any reason to expose a ship primarily built for space, its sensors, and whatnot to planetary weather. Nor do I temp strangers by letting them see what I'm unloading. Their ignorance is one of my layers of security - private business and all that. Yes, it will only keep out the weather and some casual snoops, vs. a real penetration team. But that still has value and it isn't an expensive thing to add.

A high security bay could also have such a louvre made out of AV40 metal which would then be a very tough nut to crack.
 
Kaladorn wrote:
One point for Dan: Is JTAS actually canonical? (No, I don't want to get into any argument). All I'm asking is are these contributions considered sort of 'user articles' and of interest, but not considered particularly binding, or is it considered OTU canon?
Answers:
+It's published and dated material from 1985/ TI year 1111. This lends it some "authenticity" ergo, *canon*.
+It was fan based CT-era Traveller written stuff, approved by MWM & the rest of the GDW crew. Ergo, it lends authenticity yet again, ergo *canon*

I wonder how this matches up to the World Tamer's Guide and World Builder's Handbooks regarding port numbers and types. I remember most high tech, high pop worlds had several starports of their level, I thought, a bunch more at level-1, a bunch more at level-2, etc. So a high tech world with a good port might have Ax2, Bx4, Cx15, etc. plus a whacking pile of ancillary spaceports.
THAT among other things is *Precisely* why a Universally accepted system of viewing the Starports off the UWP ( the thing that has changed the least through all these game versions/ variants by mechanics )

I wonder what makes a) the most sense and b) easily reconcilles with our understanding of the Imperium?
Likewise our science of space stations has gone from Soyuz & Sky Lab of the mid 80"s to the current IS Station. Traveller has changed with those changes too.

I see the validity of the original work, But I see also its need for replacement. The thesis that lead to the results was sound, the actual size and time to construct based on Millions of Dtons means his largest five examples must have been built by some of these worlds back ion the 1st Imperium and survived to the Third Imperium based on 1billion pop can build 100million dtns of orbital Station/ year.

Mssr Flynn, of Stellar Fanzine gave us an example not too long ago of a deep space refueling starport, (a Small D-class) whose hub was 500dtns and the rest was modular fuel tanks to achieve her size for J3 vessels crossing a reft in the Empty Quarter.

Perhaps its all semantics:

Orbital Habitat--the larger vehicle, simpler than a starship to make, modular components, launched even by rocket into orbit and re-assembled there: Contains shops, labs, living quarters, and food sustaining land mass space.

Orbital Starport--part of the orbital Habitat itself.
 
Ms. Mickazoid wrote:
Another exceptional post by the project manager


An interesting question arises in my mind re: gravitic stations (I don't have my JTAS reprints handy so excuse me if I misunderstand the term 'gravitic')... since one can build and keep a non-gravitic starport in orbit at relatively low TLs, a Gravitic starport (kept in place by antigrav) would be most desirable when you wanted to build a starport in partial or near-sea-level atmospheres, where you couldn't reasonably maintain an orbit.
The JTAS original article was 1985, MM. CT-era shtuff. However, Gravitic Orbital stations could also "descend" into atmosphere (albeit slowly), and were more expensive than the rotating Styled Habitats/ stations, which likewise in CT & HG, with USL hulls were not meant for re-entry.

Some OH's and Stations the author of the orginal article mentions would be say even mid way between a main world & the Jump diameter, or set off at a La Grange point, or near the jump diameter of a Gas Giant, and so on.

Are there other reasons for a gravitic, rather than an orbiting station? One can set up in a geosyncronous orbit without antigrav.
+Gravitic stations/ Habitats/ Cities need no rotation to induce gravity aboard. They first appear at TL-13 in the Megatraveller predecessor technology chart ranges after CT.

+ Having said advantage (Gravitics) they can be withdrawn from space and back to planetside for re[pairs, work, safety from solar activity, meteors, and so on.

This is good - now I'm inspired to start doodling up some station structure ideas. Thanks all!
I'm flattered we inspire you by this discussion, MM. Have at it!
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Would multiple ports make sense? Assuming a world with a decend population (Code 5 and above - 100000 and more) and outside contact

Case a) Low tech world up to TL4

Traffic is likely low due to lack of important export goods. Those worlds can mostly offer food and basic metals/minerals.

On-planet transport is complex up to TL3 since the only major routes are by water. It gets better at TL4 with railroads.

My suggestiong: Multiple low-grade (Class D) starports near the production centers since the locals can not support a repair facility. If the production is very high, there might be a C-class highport for orbital transfers between shuttles and larger ships. This will only happen in a few systems since highports generally produce maintenance problems needing outside spare parts

If the world has a native populace, the starports are likely co-located with harbortowns due to ease of landing, contact to trade routes and the existence of facilities for transient populations.

This is a problem point with the starport classes One would assume the orbital station has refined fuel but no repair capacity rather than the other way round.
Presuming TL below TL8 (TL7 thru TL0) the starport(s) would be located planet side in my judgement.

Likewise TL4 is where mechanics tools become available, hence it is my target level of bottom TL for a D-class port, earliest forms of electricty, and coal/steam powered machinery (large, crude, but effective) are also found here.

Fuel present is a matter of UWP Hydropshere, and the PPG for belts & Gas Giants. Systems with a PPG of (0-9)-0-0, means the planet's Hydrosphere will tell all since there's no use looking far system for fuel source.

Case b) Mid tech, TL5 to TL8

With easier mass transports due to advanced rail systems and combustion engines the number of downports can be reduced. At the same time we slowly make the switch from raw materials to processed goods. Again we get the fuel vs. maintenance problem since the locals will be capabel of generating LHyd far earlier than spare parts. I'd upgrade the groundside ports to Class C but reduce their number to one per continent(two for large ones like Afrika or Asia). Late in this period one yard might make the transition to class B for producing local shuttles. Highport remains as above due to the still common maintenance problems. Very late in this phase we might get a Class-D equivalent High Port (Think ISS) more as a prestige object.
The same logic can also be applied to *increasing* the number of downports directly to the resource sites, MB, as tech of transportation increases in efficiency.

The Size of the population, and the world size in the UWP will matter of course. On a smaller world (Sizes 1-6) a decrease would be in order due to speed to which Downside ports stuff moves to. Larger worlds (Sizes 7-A).
Pop 5 or less worlds; with TL7 or less; with no other bases (N, S, A, or B, will probably have but a single downport, unless they are balkanized.

Case c) Low Stellar Tech, Level 9-11

With Gravitics and extremly fast trains availabel and star travelle getting possibel, most systems will get a singel Class B port at this phase to reduce the off-world cash flow. Depending on the planetary layout minor sub-ports might exist on the other continents. This is likely a ground base installation at first due to lower setup costs. At this phase an orbital station, likely starting from a Class C (again the fuel vs. maintenance problem)
A ground based Class A might exists on a world with a large population and interesting export goods. Those same systems might upgrade the Highport to Class B.
Mag-Lev Highspeed trains begin at TL9, quite true. This too can decrease the number of ports planetside. Space orbital shuttles need not be built but can in the Imperium be purchased elsewhere, so a D-class (equivalent to H-class spaceport) port suffices for orbital lift of goods to orbit and an orbital station.
In the UWp again we find that Mag-lev technology beginning in TL8 and a Mag-lev projector built to hurl cargo containers into orbit on low gravity worlds defeats the need for shuttles from surface, and only shuttles in orbit at orbital station to catch and gather for passing freighters to carry off.

Lastly, we have already done examples of small populated world A-class ports from those existing in canon UWPs here. Your model is using Pop5+ still I presume.

Which leads me to ask: if you have an A-downport, and a B-orbital, which one is listed in the UWP? Or is listing the *actual class* or the *average of the classes* of the number of ports in system?

Special cases

Balkanised Worlds will likely have a port per nation but likely at a lower level than normal. They will have a better highport, possibly orbiting a moon or an L-Point for political reasons
I'd caveat that to *Superpowers* only and locations along equator where launch to orbit is easier, using Terra/Sol present-day as a model. Talking with my secret-squirrel rocket scientist pal at KSC, NASA, there are six launch sites:

+Russia's land site-Kazakhistan
+China's Launch site
+French Guiana
+India's site
+USA had two (Vendenberg AFB, closed in 90's), and KSC in Florida, which has repair and build facilities for the Space Shuttles (Small B-class equivalent base).

Industrial Colonies, most likely Belts, will likely have a Class B port for maintenance reasons
Especially those without gas giants! But I see fuel refining as a matter of tech level & are the rsources there for it. A Starship's fuel LHyd purification unit begins at TL9, ya see?

But without gas giants there would exist that class of Belters some call 'Cutters' who mine the ice asteroids for the fuel, refined or otherwise.

Class X ports only exist on worlds without external contact.

Class E ports are early contact facilities or those used every blue moon due to lack of any useful goods. As soon as any regular trade has established, some base facilities (Harbortown) will spring up
ZEELAND/Libert/Diaspora E989AA8-E Hi C:4 604 Im defies this idea somewhat, MB.

In existence since the 2nd Imperium as a settled world, with an Extreme High Population (A-Tens of billions), 40% of which are Chirpers/ 60% Humanity (24 Billion Chirpers & 36 Billion Humans & Other Imperial sentient citizens).

Other data from the region showed that ZEELAND's merchant fleet did their maintenace elsewhere in their cluster--owned here, flagged under another planet's yards for registry port of repair base?

Kind of like using Liberia to flag a tanker, but its owned by a corporation elsewhere..

Zeeland has TL-14 good & services, & lifestyle for majority of the population there, but not for starships apparently. Their apparent unwillingness to build better, even though they have a long history since first settlement points towards an obvious insular attitude towards offworlders--bring your trade, yes, settle here, bringing ideas and starships--"well thank you, we own ours, and even don't care to know how to fix them--we pay someone else to do that".

Like some insular oil-rich Southwest-Asian nations that rely heavily on cheap outside immigrant labor (or in this case unpaid Chirper labor).

Generalizing all E-class ports are the same as Frontier or reasource poor might not always be the case as we see in Zeeland's TL portion of its UWP, hence we cannot discount it as "Frontier" or at that TL, "resource poor".
 
Hi !

Which leads me to ask: if you have an A-downport, and a B-orbital, which one is listed in the UWP? Or is listing the *actual class* or the *average of the classes* of the number of ports in system?
Well, IMHO a starport class defined for a system describes the best service available in this system. So it would be A for this one.
What would be a reason to choose B ?

And I would drop that "launch site near equator" issue. Guess thats no longer an important aspect for after-rocket civilisations ....

Regards,

TE
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Would multiple ports make sense? Assuming a world with a decend population (Code 5 and above - 100000 and more) and outside contact

Case a) Low tech world up to TL4

Traffic is likely low due to lack of important export goods. Those worlds can mostly offer food and basic metals/minerals.

On-planet transport is complex up to TL3 since the only major routes are by water. It gets better at TL4 with railroads.

My suggestiong: Multiple low-grade (Class D) starports near the production centers since the locals can not support a repair facility. If the production is very high, there might be a C-class highport for orbital transfers between shuttles and larger ships. This will only happen in a few systems since highports generally produce maintenance problems needing outside spare parts

If the world has a native populace, the starports are likely co-located with harbortowns due to ease of landing, contact to trade routes and the existence of facilities for transient populations.

This is a problem point with the starport classes One would assume the orbital station has refined fuel but no repair capacity rather than the other way round.
Presuming TL below TL8 (TL7 thru TL0) the starport(s) would be located planet side in my judgement.

Likewise TL4 is where mechanics tools become available, hence it is my target level of bottom TL for a D-class port, earliest forms of electricty, and coal/steam powered machinery (large, crude, but effective) are also found here.

Fuel present is a matter of UWP Hydropshere, and the PPG for belts & Gas Giants. Systems with a PPG of (0-9)-0-0, means the planet's Hydrosphere will tell all since there's no use looking far system for fuel source.

</font>[/QUOTE]I was working under the implied assumption that at this TL's the Starport(s) are build and run by the Imperial Starport Authority (SPA), not by the locals. Under that idea the local highport is little more than a docking/cargo transfer station for unstreamlined/semi-streamlined craft like the Typ M. Bulk cargo (i.e grain, ore) goes up by something like a 40to Pinace or a 100to Shuttle instead of the small ships boat. The whole beast is likely build in the next TL-9+ system and jumped in on an outdated and retired Imperial Battletender or a similar ship

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Case b) Mid tech, TL5 to TL8

With easier mass transports due to advanced rail systems and combustion engines the number of downports can be reduced. At the same time we slowly make the switch from raw materials to processed goods. Again we get the fuel vs. maintenance problem since the locals will be capabel of generating LHyd far earlier than spare parts. I'd upgrade the groundside ports to Class C but reduce their number to one per continent(two for large ones like Afrika or Asia). Late in this period one yard might make the transition to class B for producing local shuttles. Highport remains as above due to the still common maintenance problems. Very late in this phase we might get a Class-D equivalent High Port (Think ISS) more as a prestige object.
The same logic can also be applied to *increasing* the number of downports directly to the resource sites, MB, as tech of transportation increases in efficiency.

The Size of the population, and the world size in the UWP will matter of course. On a smaller world (Sizes 1-6) a decrease would be in order due to speed to which Downside ports stuff moves to. Larger worlds (Sizes 7-A).
Pop 5 or less worlds; with TL7 or less; with no other bases (N, S, A, or B, will probably have but a single downport, unless they are balkanized.

</font>[/QUOTE]So a large world, high-pop would (at least for a while) get multipel ports. Sounds resonabel

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Case c) Low Stellar Tech, Level 9-11

With Gravitics and extremly fast trains availabel and star travelle getting possibel, most systems will get a singel Class B port at this phase to reduce the off-world cash flow. Depending on the planetary layout minor sub-ports might exist on the other continents. This is likely a ground base installation at first due to lower setup costs. At this phase an orbital station, likely starting from a Class C (again the fuel vs. maintenance problem)
A ground based Class A might exists on a world with a large population and interesting export goods. Those same systems might upgrade the Highport to Class B.
Mag-Lev Highspeed trains begin at TL9, quite true. This too can decrease the number of ports planetside. Space orbital shuttles need not be built but can in the Imperium be purchased elsewhere, so a D-class (equivalent to H-class spaceport) port suffices for orbital lift of goods to orbit and an orbital station.
In the UWp again we find that Mag-lev technology beginning in TL8 and a Mag-lev projector built to hurl cargo containers into orbit on low gravity worlds defeats the need for shuttles from surface, and only shuttles in orbit at orbital station to catch and gather for passing freighters to carry off.

Lastly, we have already done examples of small populated world A-class ports from those existing in canon UWPs here. Your model is using Pop5+ still I presume.

Which leads me to ask: if you have an A-downport, and a B-orbital, which one is listed in the UWP? Or is listing the *actual class* or the *average of the classes* of the number of ports in system?

</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, all cases use Pop 5+.

As for the port there are two options:

+ The best SPA run (Imperial Territory) port
+ The best port that allows ships to land even if local

I'd say option 1.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Special cases

Balkanised Worlds will likely have a port per nation but likely at a lower level than normal. They will have a better highport, possibly orbiting a moon or an L-Point for political reasons
I'd caveat that to *Superpowers* only and locations along equator where launch to orbit is easier, using Terra/Sol present-day as a model. Talking with my secret-squirrel rocket scientist pal at KSC, NASA, there are six launch sites:

+Russia's land site-Kazakhistan
+China's Launch site
+French Guiana
+India's site
+USA had two (Vendenberg AFB, closed in 90's), and KSC in Florida, which has repair and build facilities for the Space Shuttles (Small B-class equivalent base).

Industrial Colonies, most likely Belts, will likely have a Class B port for maintenance reasons
Especially those without gas giants! But I see fuel refining as a matter of tech level & are the rsources there for it. A Starship's fuel LHyd purification unit begins at TL9, ya see?

But without gas giants there would exist that class of Belters some call 'Cutters' who mine the ice asteroids for the fuel, refined or otherwise.

</font>[/QUOTE]Agreed on the small, high-efficient starship units are TL 9. So the "magical" fuel processors that can extract the LHyd from the mixed athmosphere is out.

But LHyd has been mass-generated from water since the 1950s and the Industrial-Sized technology is from 1895 (Liquid Nitrogen, Linde). So a ground based unit with a large footprint should be availabel TL5 and better. The System might only work on the ground.

I also like the cutters and using electrolysis to split water. Would likely be the only system useabel pre TL9 on a space station.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Class X ports only exist on worlds without external contact.

Class E ports are early contact facilities or those used every blue moon due to lack of any useful goods. As soon as any regular trade has established, some base facilities (Harbortown) will spring up
ZEELAND/Libert/Diaspora E989AA8-E Hi C:4 604 Im defies this idea somewhat, MB.

In existence since the 2nd Imperium as a settled world, with an Extreme High Population (A-Tens of billions), 40% of which are Chirpers/ 60% Humanity (24 Billion Chirpers & 36 Billion Humans & Other Imperial sentient citizens).

Other data from the region showed that ZEELAND's merchant fleet did their maintenace elsewhere in their cluster--owned here, flagged under another planet's yards for registry port of repair base?

Kind of like using Liberia to flag a tanker, but its owned by a corporation elsewhere..

Zeeland has TL-14 good & services, & lifestyle for majority of the population there, but not for starships apparently. Their apparent unwillingness to build better, even though they have a long history since first settlement points towards an obvious insular attitude towards offworlders--bring your trade, yes, settle here, bringing ideas and starships--"well thank you, we own ours, and even don't care to know how to fix them--we pay someone else to do that".

Like some insular oil-rich Southwest-Asian nations that rely heavily on cheap outside immigrant labor (or in this case unpaid Chirper labor).

Generalizing all E-class ports are the same as Frontier or reasource poor might not always be the case as we see in Zeeland's TL portion of its UWP, hence we cannot discount it as "Frontier" or at that TL, "resource poor".
</font>[/QUOTE]In T20 the Class E means "No facilities". That strikes me as odd since any port that sees regular use will attract business unless there is a massiv problem or littel traffic. The minimum one expects are a butcher, a baker, a grocer and a bar.

So maybe we need a more complex system than a two letter code. Say

E: No Starship/Spaceship repair/maintenance facilities. Landing field, approach control and SPA office present

E1: No other facilities

E2: Minor secondary facilities in Startown/next city (Grocer, Baker etc. Think small rural city)

E2: Major secondary facilities in Startown/next city (Think mid-level city)

and so on.
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Presuming TL below TL8 (TL7 thru TL0) the starport(s) would be located planet side in my judgement.

Likewise TL4 is where mechanics tools become available, hence it is my target level of bottom TL for a D-class port, earliest forms of electricty, and coal/steam powered machinery (large, crude, but effective) are also found here.

Fuel present is a matter of UWP Hydropshere, and the PPG for belts & Gas Giants. Systems with a PPG of (0-9)-0-0, means the planet's Hydrosphere will tell all since there's no use looking far system for fuel source.


I was working under the implied assumption that at this TL's the Starport(s) are build and run by the Imperial Starport Authority (SPA), not by the locals. Under that idea the local highport is little more than a docking/ cargo transfer station for unstreamlined/ semi-streamlined craft like the Typ M. Bulk cargo (i.e grain, ore) goes up by something like a 40to Pinace or a 100to Shuttle instead of the small ships boat. The whole beast is likely build in the next TL-9+ system and jumped in on an outdated and retired Imperial Battletender or a similar ship
+Built by the Imperium or by local work force--good question, MB. perhaps better stated "Built to Imperial specifications by local technology?"
+ Being a member of the SPA as a career field requires some level of air traffic control and guidance, to the minimum of a landing beacon and cleared field (Type E-class).
+You clearly omit the 30dton Slow boat born in CT and carried through to GT & T20 as a lighter subcraft of cargo lading. the 50dt Modular cutter is IMO a more flexible craft, but there do exist even the 20dt/ 1G Launches as well where $$ is the planet's concern towards cost of operation.

Which leads me to ask: if you have an A-downport, and a B-orbital, which one is listed in the UWP? Or is listing the *actual class* or the *average of the classes* of the number of ports in system?

Yes, all cases use Pop 5+.

As for the port there are two options:

+ The best SPA run (Imperial Territory) port
+ The best port that allows ships to land even if local

I'd say option 1.
I tend to concur the best class port is the one generally seen in the UWP. A smaller but btter class port is the GM's option if the planet's population, or bases present warrants it.

Special cases

Industrial Colonies, most likely Belts, will likely have a Class B port for maintenance reasons
Especially those without gas giants! But I see fuel refining as a matter of tech level & are the rsources there for it. A Starship's fuel LHyd purification unit begins at TL9, ya see?

But without gas giants there would exist that class of Belters some call 'Cutters' who mine the ice asteroids for the fuel, refined or otherwise.


Agreed on the small, high-efficient starship units are TL 9. So the "magical" fuel processors that can extract the LHyd from the mixed athmosphere is out.
No. Magical won't do, we must explain. handwavium not allowed here. ;D

But LHyd has been mass-generated from water since the 1950s and the Industrial-Sized technology is from 1895 (Liquid Nitrogen, Linde). So a ground based unit with a large footprint should be availabel TL5 and better. The System might only work on the ground.
This is precisely why we have a team, MB. Part of the original thesis on refined fuel services and starports having a base tech level for existence. TL5 is our baseline for class C ports of call. You just reinforced that theory, and I thank you!

I also like the cutters and using electrolysis to split water. Would likely be the only system useabel pre TL9 on a space station.
Absolutely no disagreement there, albeit we have seen even a small station can be put up & sustained for long periods of time at TL8.

Class E ports are early contact facilities or those used every blue moon due to lack of any useful goods. As soon as any regular trade has established, some base facilities (Harbortown) will spring up
ZEELAND/Libert/Diaspora E989AA8-E Hi C:4 604 Im defies this idea somewhat, MB.

In existence since the 2nd Imperium as a settled world, with an Extreme High Population (A-Tens of billions), 40% of which are Chirpers/ 60% Humanity (24 Billion Chirpers & 36 Billion Humans & Other Imperial sentient citizens).

Other data from the region showed that ZEELAND's merchant fleet did their maintenace elsewhere in their cluster--owned here, flagged under another planet's yards for registry port of repair base?

Kind of like using Liberia to flag a tanker, but its owned by a corporation elsewhere..

Zeeland has TL-14 good & services, & lifestyle for majority of the population there, but not for starships apparently. Their apparent unwillingness to build better, even though they have a long history since first settlement points towards an obvious insular attitude towards offworlders--bring your trade, yes, settle here, bringing ideas and starships--"well thank you, we own ours, and even don't care to know how to fix them--we pay someone else to do that".

Like some insular oil-rich Southwest-Asian nations that rely heavily on cheap outside immigrant labor (or in this case unpaid Chirper labor).

Generalizing all E-class ports are the same as Frontier or reasource poor might not always be the case as we see in Zeeland's TL portion of its UWP, hence we cannot discount it as "Frontier" or at that TL, "resource poor".


In T20 the Class E means "No facilities". That strikes me as odd since any port that sees regular use will attract business unless there is a massive problem or littel traffic. The minimum one expects are a butcher, a baker, a grocer and a bar.

So maybe we need a more complex system than a two letter code. Say

E: No Starship/Spaceship repair/maintenance facilities. Landing field, approach control and SPA office present

E1: No other facilities

E2: Minor secondary facilities in Startown/next city (Grocer, Baker etc. Think small rural city)

E2: Major secondary facilities in Startown/next city (Think mid-level city)

and so on.
MB, the object here is the simplification not over complexity. In My view, "No facilities" means No TAS, Means No ship Building, No repairs. It does not mean cargo or passenger services aren't present--they will be extreme minimums provided by the local technology however. They might have as grand a concourse as say the Frankurt am Main Airport, to LAX, to Dallas/ Ft Worth airports--all equivaelnt E-class ports, and capable of handling cargo & passenger traffic to the quonset hut and sock flagpole and tarmacadam or crushed gravel landing pad to a grassy field or rocky mesa/ arroyo plateau.

We do not seek to add additional subclasses or extend the already long UWP alphanumeric string, but make it easier to understand & useful for the GM & player alike.

Like the LHyd TL5 references, Kudos! ;)
 
Okay so no "Starports Classifications, Section Imperial Ports, Subsection E, Sub-Subsection E1" in Folder 7a of 11.


Yokes aside, I guess we need to define, what does "facilities" mean. Do they include only building/repair yards and a terminal or do they also include ship chandlers and outfitters.

So far the port sizes are:

I.e "Bevergern Harbor"(1) is a some 20 anchoring places small shop, two oilers and a sign "Bevergern, 2km". Is that Class E or Class C? I'd say C because of the oilers

Some 10km further down the DE Channel is "Rhode Harbor". Anchorage, a small shop and a telefone to call the oilers at Bevergern. Class E IMHO.

Some 10km up the MC channel is "Püsselbüren Harbor". A few anchorage places in an old sidearm. Class X IMHO


100km up the DE Channel is Duisburg Harbor. Major fright handling port with a sprawling harbortown, storehouses and dry docks/construction yards. Class B since it can only build channel/river boats

On the "magical" in fuel processors:

One can assume that an off-spin of fusion theory is used to "crack"(2) other gases down to Hydrogen and the new steps in metallurgy allow together with better isolation allow for smaller lyquifiers. I try to dig out the reference to using fusion "breeders"

On the space station at TL8:

No problem. I'd say this is do-abel even at TL7 (Skylab, Saljut, Almaz(3))

In the above exampel I was refering to a more remote station that cracks asteroid ice into Hydrogen. At lower TL, lacking Fusion technology, this is likely done through Electrolysis since in Space energy is cheap.

Depending on the locals and their needs some impressive space drives exist at TL7/TL8 and above (Orion Nuclear Pulse, Nerva Nuclear-Thermal) and allow off-world bases.

(1) On the Crossing of the Dortmund-Ems(DE) and Mittelland Channel(MC). Used to be Class B (could build channel ships) until the 1960s
(2) As in "cracking oil", reducing it into it's useful components
(3) The first human space-battlestation, armed with an aircraft canon
 
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