Starship Accommodations

[Patron Zero]

Unsure where to place this but since it originates IMTU here goes:

I tend to shy away from the standard layouts-allotments for staterooms on starships, such being the 3M x 3M-14 cubic meters displacement, that just doesn't seem not to fit every deck plan or individual vessel.

What's more commonly found for berthing IMTU are more compact but still functional and comfortable space, what I refer to as 'Pullman-style accommodations.

Best explained as having either a Murphy-type or futon-style bed allowing for an open space when not used for slumber reminiscent of classic and modern rail-car passenger cabins.

Generally the smaller 'staterooms' are supported by larger common areas for eating and recreation but each individual cabin does have it's own access to a fresher, whether incorporated in the space directly or conveniently adjacent to such.

Mind these sort of berthings are intended for crew members and those persons traveling under 'working-passage' arrangements but given where situation demands or opportunity for profit happens such might be offered to those in need of immediate transport.

One last bit, I have worked the concept up as a sort of 'shipping' container-like module that can be placed in a ship's cargo hold, the necessary hook-ups to provide power, life-support and related amenities being plug-play affairs so require no special refitting for use.

Admittedly a cluster of pre-fab Pullman containers on a cargo deck might not be the most glamorous of accommodations in comparison to dedicated High Passage suites, but in a pinch and when a tight budget precludes other arrangements it's not a bad way to get to your destination.

 

[McPerth]

I've always assumed that middle passengers colud be fitted in half staterooms¹ or double occupancy (after all, in the alien adventures, is told that middle passengers share stateroom).

In this way, I've allowed "living hábitats" to be carried in the cargo hold, each being the equivalent to two such staterooms for middle passengers (or tropos, in which case they can be even more cramped).

Note 1: I've read somewhere that small staterooms are not the same as sharing stateroom, as they lack other commodities (hence their lower price). That's why I talk about half staterooms, those being up (or nearly so) to stateroom in facilities, albeit smaller, and would cost half of what a stateroom does​

 

[rancke]

I've always assumed that middle passengers colud be fitted in half staterooms¹ or double occupancy (after all, in the alien adventures, is told that middle passengers share stateroom).

Do you have a reference for that?

I've always thought that middle passengers occupied single staterooms as numerous statements attest, but that starships offered so-called economy passage with double occupancy in addition to high and middle.

(It's just that Imperial organizations don't issue Economy Passage vouchers).


Hans

 

[Vladika]

So why not the Small Craft Cabin, or equivalent, or, as sated here, the "half cabin"? If a Small Craft cabin can accommodate double occupancy indefinably for it's stated purpose in Small Craft, why can't it function just as well on a Starship? Functionally it is exactly the same. Imperial law, and passenger expectations, are the only real impediments.

Get around it, if you must, by grouping them in Small Craft modules, then slap them in the hold or attach them to the hull similar to Small Craft docking.

 

[McPerth]

Do you have a reference for that?

I'm afraid not handy right now...

IIRC it was on the Alien Realms, on the prologue of a Vargr adventure (where they met a human just because this room sharing while travelling on middle passages).

 

[CosmicGamer]

Imperial law, and passenger expectations, are the only real impediments.

Get around it, if you must, by grouping them in Small Craft modules, then slap them in the hold or attach them to the hull similar to Small Craft docking.

Some present day zoning laws don't allow a portion, like the basement, of a single family home to be converted into a rental apartment. It is still done. It's easy to get away with if you don't file for permits, don't report the rental income, and so on. The rules broken start adding up. But who will know? Who would be willing to rent an illegal space? What are the chances of getting caught? What are the penalties? These same questions should be asked for a Traveler ship breaking whatever passenger regulations and laws there might be.

A Traveller ship, probably needs to file paperwork at every port. List of passengers. List of cargo. Unlike someones home, the passengers may go through customs when they get on and off a ship. I'd think it would be easy to catch a ship carrying more passengers than it is rated for. The ship might lose it's license or whatever to carry passengers. Be subjected to fines. Maybe even have the ship seized until any illegal modifications are corrected. Is it worth the risk for the few credits you get for inferior accommodations? As indicated in other threads, for some ships even mid passage is a money loser compared to cargo. It's not just the revenue. Cargo has fewer costs. Cost of life support, stateroom maintenance, a stateroom increases the ships cost and mortgage payment, steward salaries, stewards need staterooms, stewards have life support costs and their staterooms need maintenance and increase the mortgage payments....

That said, just about anything is possible. In an emergency, say rescuing a large number of people from a passenger ship that had a disaster, you throw blankets down on the bridge and engineering for the crew and let the survivors use the crew staterooms. Double up, even if it means one sleeping on the floor. Hot bunk. That's four people per stateroom. Heck, you can easily survive in an emergency with 4 hours of sleep a day. Make that 5 sleep shifts (*1) 10 people per stateroom. Only two in the stateroom at a time. A staterooms life support can handle that, no?

Of course these people need to be somewhere when they are not sleeping. It's an emergency though. If a crowd of people can be packed in tight for a movie or a night club or a concert or a intercontinental flight, I don't see why people couldn't sit on the floor side by side in the common area and passageways. One person with a musical instrument and people around them singing, another group watching a holo movie, others reading or playing games on their com or handheld, a group in the corner playing some game with, what is that?, paper and dice?

Life support capacity is a whole discussion of it's own.

(*1) 5 instead of 6 giving some time for freshening and changing.

 

[Lycanorukke]

I've always assumed that middle passengers colud be fitted in half staterooms¹ or double occupancy (after all, in the alien adventures, is told that middle passengers share stateroom).

I always thought of 'middle passage' as essentially a way to fill empty staterooms (discount tickets if you like) if not enough 'highs' are available, not an actual catagory of stateroom so to speak.

The shipping module sounds a bit like steerage class. The problem is that a ship designed for 5 Crew and 10 passangers would start to strain the life support problems if you put another 10 people on board (air, heat, sewage etc) with a plug & pray arrangement. Prehaps for every 9 steerage modules you have to have a 'support module' to handle the load.

 

[McPerth]

The shipping module sounds a bit like steerage class. The problem is that a ship designed for 5 Crew and 10 passangers would start to strain the life support problems if you put another 10 people on board (air, heat, sewage etc) with a plug & pray arrangement. Prehaps for every 9 steerage modules you have to have a 'support module' to handle the load.

Unless those modules also have their own life support...

 

[atpollard]

I always thought of 'middle passage' as essentially a way to fill empty staterooms (discount tickets if you like) if not enough 'highs' are available, not an actual catagory of stateroom so to speak.

That's how I read it too ... not what I like IMTU ... but the OTU rules as written.

The shipping module sounds a bit like steerage class. The problem is that a ship designed for 5 Crew and 10 passangers would start to strain the life support problems if you put another 10 people on board (air, heat, sewage etc) with a plug & pray arrangement. Prehaps for every 9 steerage modules you have to have a 'support module' to handle the load.

If one started with a standard 30 dTon module (like from the Modular Cutter) and fitted it with 15 small craft staterooms per the small craft rules, it should have its own life support (and LS cost) and be able to travel like any other piece of freight.

Just an idea. YMMV.

 

[rancke]

I always thought of 'middle passage' as essentially a way to fill empty staterooms (discount tickets if you like) if not enough 'highs' are available, not an actual catagory of stateroom so to speak.

It seems to me to be the other way around. A Mid Passage would be the standard passage, good enough unless someone with a High Passage comes along and preempts your cabin.

After long deliberation I've concluded that passages -- the bits of plascard you hand over to get a ride on a ship -- are vouchers issued by various Imperial organizations. They can be exchanged for actual tickets. If it's a jump-1 passage (small 's'), the ship issues a Cr3500¹ ticket in exchange; if it's a jump-2 passage, the ship issues a Cr7000² ticket in exchange; and so on.

¹ Or whatever a jump-1 ticket actually costs.
² Or whatever a jump-2 ticket actually costs.​

This has the advantage that it turns per-jump pricing into per-parsec pricing yet retains the canonical High, Mid, and Low Passage almost intact.

To illustrate what I mean, here are examples of High, Mid, and Low passage vouchers as I envisage them:

High Passage
Mid Passage
Low Passage

The shipping module sounds a bit like steerage class. The problem is that a ship designed for 5 Crew and 10 passangers would start to strain the life support problems if you put another 10 people on board (air, heat, sewage etc) with a plug & pray arrangement. Prehaps for every 9 steerage modules you have to have a 'support module' to handle the load.

Yes, I've always assumed that the rule of thumb used by shipbuilders were to install a life support system rated for two individuals per stateroom. Which is why I'm fine with the lack of a "steerage" equivalent but can't reconcile myself with the lack of a double occupancy option. The rules specifically tells us that life support is rated for double occupancy of staterooms.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Yes, I've always assumed that the rule of thumb used by shipbuilders were to install a life support system rated for two individuals per stateroom. Which is why I'm fine with the lack of a "steerage" equivalent but can't reconcile myself with the lack of a double occupancy option. The rules specifically tells us that life support is rated for double occupancy of staterooms.

A double-occupancy option per room would have to be in existence in order to accommodate married couples and/or family members (who I would presume would want to travel together). This would be an issue for both High and Middle Passage.

 

[Timerover51]

There is a very nice modular shelter covered in JTAS #6, pages 35-36: the Model 317 Pressurized Shelter, by GSbAG. Bunks 8 persons, with fresher, kitchen facilities, its own water and atmosphere recycler, own power plant good for 100 days operation, and can store 800 person-days of food. Also has an airlock. Total cost for this is Cr50,000. Size is 7.5 by 7.5 by 3 meters.

That would make a nice basis for a cargo hold passenger module, or for use as the basis for crew space onboard a ship. Marc Miller wrote the article, so it is about as canonical as you can get.

It does sort of play hob though with the costs for space ship staterooms.

 

[Timerover51]

A double-occupancy option per room would have to be in existence in order to accommodate married couples and/or family members (who I would presume would want to travel together). This would be an issue for both High and Middle Passage.

Try parents with two young children. You would need a four-person stateroom. Been there, done that on cruise ships. Two lower beds and two fold-down bunks.

 

[whulorigan]

Try parents with two young children. You would need a four-person stateroom. Been there, done that on cruise ships. Two lower beds and two fold-down bunks.

In such an instance, how might that affect passage sales/rates? Would a husband/wife couple travelling alone each pay (for example) reduced rate high passages (say each ticket at 75% price) for a double-occupancy High Passage stateroom? Likewise for Middle Passages? Do children's rates differ in any way?

I've never been on a modern cruise ship myself, so I do not have personal experience regarding ticket sales on modern vessels.

 

[rancke]

There is a very nice modular shelter covered in JTAS #6, pages 35-36: the Model 317 Pressurized Shelter, by GSbAG. Bunks 8 persons, with fresher, kitchen facilities, its own water and atmosphere recycler, own power plant good for 100 days operation, and can store 800 person-days of food. Also has an airlock. Total cost for this is Cr50,000. Size is 7.5 by 7.5 by 3 meters.

That would make a nice basis for a cargo hold passenger module, or for use as the basis for crew space onboard a ship. Marc Miller wrote the article, so it is about as canonical as you can get.

It does sort of play hob though with the costs for space ship staterooms.

It does indeed, if the Cr50,000 includes the supplies for one 100 day period. 8 people for 100 days is 800 person-days. Assuming one starship trip uses 10 person-days of supplies, the shelter is good for the equivalent of 80 ship passages. That means that if everything else about the shelter costs absolutely nothing, the supplies for one starship passage woulc cost Cr625...

I suppose one would have to assume that the Cr50,000 price tag does not include supplies.


Hans

 

[rancke]

A double-occupancy option per room would have to be in existence in order to accommodate married couples and/or family members (who I would presume would want to travel together). This would be an issue for both High and Middle Passage.

You could require the couple to occupy two staterooms. They could use one of them as a sleeping cabin and the other as a day cabin.

Note: I'm not saying that it's reasonable, just that it's possible.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

You could require the couple to occupy two staterooms. They could use one of them as a sleeping cabin and the other as a day cabin.

Note: I'm not saying that it's reasonable, just that it's possible.

You could do that. But I would bet that if that were the "standard", some smart ship-captain would introduce the above-mentioned scheme on his vessel as a means to both attract potential passengers away from other passenger liners (for the decreased rates from the purchasers' standpoints), while at the same time opening up another space in another stateroom for an additional High Passage passenger (as long as it did not compromise life-support requirements). And that would eventually cause other captains to do the same in order to compete.

At least, I know that is what I would do.

 

[rancke]

You could do that. But I would bet that if that were the "standard", some smart ship-captain would introduce the above-mentioned scheme on his vessel as a means to both attract potential passengers away from other passenger liners (for the decreased rates for the purchasers), while at the same time opening up another space in another stateroom for an additional High Passage passenger (as long as it did not compromise life-support requirements).

At least, I know that is what I would do.

Oh, me too. But what's legal and what you can get away with are two different things. Sadly, the vanilla rules fail to make that distinction. They lack any guidelines for what will happen if the PCs accept extra passengers and stuff them two to a cabins. The rules appear to assume that it just won't happen.

Thinking of players I've known (including myself), that's not an assumption I would make.

I've often thought that rules that state how thing are ought to make a greater effort to distinguish between things that's not done because the Laws of the Universe prevents it from happening, things that could be done but there's a big risk that the Fun Police will slap you silly if you do, and things could be done but are usually not practical.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Oh, me too. But what's legal and what you can get away with are two different things. Sadly, the vanilla rules fail to make that distinction. They lack any guidelines for what will happen if the PCs accept extra passengers and stuff them two to a cabins. The rules appear to assume that it just won't happen.

Perhaps ship-designs could include a slight "overage" in terms of life support systems and supplies in order to accommodate a certain specified number of extra potential "double-occupancy" situations. Perhaps this would then be further specified as part of the ship's rating in terms of occupancy (in order to accommodate legal mandates).

 

[aramis]

One last bit, I have worked the concept up as a sort of 'shipping' container-like module that can be placed in a ship's cargo hold, the necessary hook-ups to provide power, life-support and related amenities being plug-play affairs so require no special refitting for use.

Admittedly a cluster of pre-fab Pullman containers on a cargo deck might not be the most glamorous of accommodations in comparison to dedicated High Passage suites, but in a pinch and when a tight budget precludes other arrangements it's not a bad way to get to your destination.

I've gone so far as to design them as containers in MT... I used AV5. 5 Td modules, with batteries and LS of their own; removable wall frames allow opening them up at one end, lashing to others, and making a "mall" down the way. That design was lost on an older computer, but not so hard to redevelop...

But, basically, the plan was a 3x3m "porch" with removable walls on 3 sides, a 3x3m stateroom, and a 1.5mx3m mechanical bay with some cargo space.

Yeah, this does mean it's a 5Td unit, but it's a unit that is self contained, and crew can just lock them in with a steward. a group of 4 or more can be arranged and gasketed to have a vacuum sealed "commons" (with posts) and staterooms in banks down the sides.