Starship Accommodations

[atpollard]

Scarecrow made a useful observation about the rules and starship design ...
... the rules are there to provide broad guidelines (like how many berths are on the ship) and the deckplan is free to allocate space according to the vision of the designer within those broad guidelines.

Each stateroom is not exactly 4 dTons.
20 staterooms will, collectively, use about 80 dTons of the ship ... in whatever combination of spaces, beds per room and room sizes the designer chooses.

Thus smaller single-occupancy rooms alongside larger double occupancy rooms and an extended suite for group occupancy is a perfectly legitimate arrangement.

 

[Timerover51]

In such an instance, how might that affect passage sales/rates? Would a husband/wife couple travelling alone each pay (for example) reduced rate high passages (say each ticket at 75% price) for a double-occupancy High Passage stateroom? Likewise for Middle Passages? Do children's rates differ in any way?

I've never been on a modern cruise ship myself, so I do not have personal experience regarding ticket sales on modern vessels.

The first two person are the most expensive, kids if below 18 or 16, depending on the line, are about half price. Depends on your negotiating skills to, if you book the cruise while on one, I got the kids in for free.

 

[Zutroi]

Don't go too fast with installing your crew in really small staterooms... Crew members live aboard, that means all of their stuff does too! Do you really want naked crew members wandering down to the cargo hold in order to get a clean uniform? What about that wood carving and sewing gear that Jak and Jil brought on board to fight boredom in their off-shifts?

 

[Patron Zero]

I'm not certain if steerage might be the best of terms regarding non-traditional accommodations on a starship but in the instance IMTU of such travel it's more-so bare-bones amenities.

Also the parties choosing to book passage might be under circumstance that maintaining a low profile is a perk.

 

[Rabbit 3]

Perhaps ship-designs could include a slight "overage" in terms of life support systems and supplies in order to accommodate a certain specified number of extra potential "double-occupancy" situations. Perhaps this would then be further specified as part of the ship's rating in terms of occupancy (in order to accommodate legal mandates).

I suspect that the way life-support systems are built probably involves incorporating a lot of overbuilding and redundancy in the design and amongst people who live and work in space there is a strong incentive NOT to push the systems to hard.

After all, if things go wrong then everybody dies sometimes very quickly or sometimes in long drawn out and unpleasant ways.
So the penalty for being caught violating the legal mandates is probably pretty severe and those who do so anyway are likely to recieve little sympathy from the space-going community at large.

 

[whulorigan]

I suspect that the way life-support systems are built probably involves incorporating a lot of overbuilding and redundancy in the design and amongst people who live and work in space there is a strong incentive NOT to push the systems to hard.

After all, if things go wrong then everybody dies sometimes very quickly or sometimes in long drawn out and unpleasant ways.
So the penalty for being caught violating the legal mandates is probably pretty severe and those who do so anyway are likely to recieve little sympathy from the space-going community at large.

Actually, what I meant (and perhaps did not phrase well) was that ships might be designed with somewhat "above baseline" life support (overbuilding & redundancy aside) specifically to be able to handle the possibility of double-occupancy, etc, w/o overtaxing the systems.

Actually, I think atpollard (quoting scarecrow) said it best:

Scarecrow made a useful observation about the rules and starship design ...
... the rules are there to provide broad guidelines (like how many berths are on the ship) and the deckplan is free to allocate space according to the vision of the designer within those broad guidelines.

Each stateroom is not exactly 4 dTons.
20 staterooms will, collectively, use about 80 dTons of the ship ... in whatever combination of spaces, beds per room and room sizes the designer chooses.

Thus smaller single-occupancy rooms alongside larger double occupancy rooms and an extended suite for group occupancy is a perfectly legitimate arrangement.

In the T⁵-Beta documents there was a page with a nice breakdown (with diagrams) of various ship passenger and crew accommodations (both single & double occupancy) that was cut from the release version of T⁵.

 

[selunatic2397]

Any of those diagrams still in existence?

 

[whulorigan]

Any of those diagrams still in existence?

They are on the T⁵-Beta CD-ROM from 2008.

Basically the breakdown is:

Civilian:

Luxury Single Stateroom / Standard Double Stateroom = 4 dtons


Military/Naval:

Senior Officer Quarters (Single Occupancy) = 3 dton
Junior Officer / Ratings Quarters (Both Double Occupancy) = 3 dton
Spacer Niche (Single) / Spacer Bunks (Double) / Spacer Hot Bunks (Double/6-person) = 1 dton

 

[selunatic2397]

Thanks!

 

[Patron Zero]

Mind I've never seen it covered specifically in any of the Classic Traveller LBBs but I would tend to believe life-support on a non-naval/military vessel would be more zone-specific than say a central HVAC system in a contemporary home or business structure.

Simply suggesting that damage control would be more efficient and reliable if there were multiple redundancies of small LSUs in each section between bulkheads. That's not to say one has little atmosphere factories tucked away in every nook and cranny but more that specific areas of a ship have separate 'non-network' dependent LSUs for said locations.

I see the 'zone-specific' concept to also allow for cannibalization of a unit in one compartment to be possible for making repairs in a more critical area. Such would lessen if not remove the sort of frantic jury-rigging that was seen in the film Apollo 13 to keep the crew alive should a like disaster occur.

While on the subject, what about the options for 'bottled' atmosphere and where should such be stowed aboard a starship ? I consider small stores of readily available oxygen a must-have in any compartment that houses crew or is a duty-station, just makes good sense that something like a SCOT airpack and mask be accessible to the crew and passengers in general.

One last bit, why not have a droid-drone specifically tasked with rescue protocols and the necessary 'hardware' to perform such duties on 'stand-by' in different locations aboard ship ? Sometimes safety-first is better applied as be-prepared when considering such potential needs.

 

[CosmicGamer]

While on the subject, what about the options for 'bottled' atmosphere and where should such be stowed aboard a starship ? I consider small stores of readily available oxygen a must-have in any compartment that houses crew or is a duty-station, just makes good sense that something like a SCOT airpack and mask be accessible to the crew and passengers in general.

First, life support is more than just an oxygen supply so donning a vacc suit may be the typical emergency procedure. I'd be surprised if extended life support for such is not covered in your version of Traveller.

That being said, here is something from the Mongoose Central Supply Catalog

Mask, Life-Support (TL 7): The Life-Support, or “space” mask is
functionally similar to the TL 5 environment mask but can be used
in space or underwater down to a depth of 5m. It gives a full seal
with NBC or other emergency suit such as a body pressure sleeve.
The mask has integral filters but is normally connected by a hose
to a belt-mounted filter/blower unit or 1-hour air tank. Using the
belt filter makes breathing easier and reduces fatigue. The air tank
is necessary for vacuum or underwater use. Cr. 1,000. A filter unit
and a single air tank are included in the mask price. Additional units
cost Cr. 500.

 

[ArcaneFlash]

I have a question, I was looking at T4 Naval Architect, it has all kinds of deck plans but they are all in 14m^3 tons and that means 2x2m squares. Does that change the 13.5m^5 decks a lot?

It looks like the passenger squares are done in 1x1m

 

[Vladika]

I have a question, I was looking at T4 Naval Architect, it has all kinds of deck plans but they are all in 14m^3 tons and that means 2x2m squares. Does that change the 13.5m^5 decks a lot?

It looks like the passenger squares are done in 1x1m

Yes. 1.5m going to 2.0m is a 1/3 increase.

Also, whoever drew the Naval Architect compartments seemed to never heard of accurate drafting regarding size (dtons) the stated number of dtons/ANYTHING they drew.

Their ships are certainly Not crowded in any aspect.

 

[Carlobrand]

Unsure where to place this but since it originates IMTU here goes:

I tend to shy away from the standard layouts-allotments for staterooms on starships, such being the 3M x 3M-14 cubic meters displacement, that just doesn't seem not to fit every deck plan or individual vessel.

What's more commonly found for berthing IMTU are more compact but still functional and comfortable space, what I refer to as 'Pullman-style accommodations. ...

What? I'm paying Cr. 10,000 for a Pullman bed?? The Baron will hear of this. I am not paying Cr.10,000 just to be treated like the riff-raff!

...Mind these sort of berthings are intended for crew members and those persons traveling under 'working-passage' arrangements but given where situation demands or opportunity for profit happens such might be offered to those in need of immediate transport....

Ah. It's FOR the riff raff. Oh, well then, that's fine. Do be a good fellow and fetch me my tea.

Sorry, late to the party, but it was too much fun to resist.

The rules require 4 dT per passenger, 2 dT for the double-occupancy or "half-staterooms" permitted to military personnel, but that is for the total space serving the occupant: room, halls, fresher, and presumably the machinery plant, kitchen, pantry and so forth. There's no specific rule on how big a given room is, just a lot of commonly held conventions based on the canon deck plans. I've actually had army-style barracks-rooms with lines of 2-high bunk beds for the Marines so I could squeeze out room for an armory/firing range and exercise equipment to keep them fit.

...One last bit, I have worked the concept up as a sort of 'shipping' container-like module that can be placed in a ship's cargo hold, the necessary hook-ups to provide power, life-support and related amenities being plug-play affairs so require no special refitting for use.

Admittedly a cluster of pre-fab Pullman containers on a cargo deck might not be the most glamorous of accommodations in comparison to dedicated High Passage suites, but in a pinch and when a tight budget precludes other arrangements it's not a bad way to get to your destination.

I have that for small craft, the Ship's Boat and Pinnace, so they can be easily converted back and forth from cargo haulers to mixed-load in-system passenger transport. I base the cost and size on the cost of a 2dT small craft cabin. It's got its own air and environment system, but after that it's pretty primitive - port-a-potty style toilet, sink basically consists of a tank with several gallons of water over a sink fixture and a receiving tank under, food arrangements consisting of a microwave, a little pantry with ready-to-eats and a small hotel-room style refrig with TV dinners and the like. Also crowded - something like the equivalent of a 10-by-10 room, but about a third of it is tied up in gravitics and environmental machinery. Dumping heat is a bit tricky if you're one container amidst others in a hold for days at a time; my rule is the cheap alternatives never do it well - they're always a wee bit too hot or a wee bit too cold. Paying passengers get the nice rooms in the purpose-built insystem flyers; the miners and low-level company employees being shuttled about on 2-3 day insystem flights get the containers.

In a pinch, I could see loading the things into a ship's cargo bay to haul refugees. In other situations it'd be hard to justify, 'cause at 2dT per person it costs more to haul someone that way than to haul them in a low berth. You might consider putting low berths in a cargo container, though. Under the CT rule, the low berth's a half-ton space; even if you generously required another half ton for a little power plant, fuel, and related machinery, the result allows the captain to transport low-berth modular containers for no more than the equivalent cost of cargo transport.

So why not the Small Craft Cabin, or equivalent, or, as sated here, the "half cabin"? If a Small Craft cabin can accommodate double occupancy indefinably for it's stated purpose in Small Craft, why can't it function just as well on a Starship? ...

I treat the small craft cabins as the lowest of the low frill rides, equivalent to that bed-thing in the back of long-haul trucks, or the accommodations you find in those really little cabin boats, or maybe those little travel trailers or motor homes you see on the road. Spartan accommodations, the bed little more than a 25"-30" 2-inch thick cot. Sure, it's cheaper, but it's all you get: a cot, a sink with a water tank, a chemical toilet, maybe a microwave and a little fridge. A ship's crew is going to want cooked meals - you need something like a kitchen and food storage. A ship's crew is going to need laundry services - you need a room for a washer/dryer, or on larger ships a service crew with laundry machines to serve the other crew. A ship's crew is going to need showers - and while you're doing that, you might as well go ahead and put in a proper plumbing and waste system, save yourself the trouble of having to clean out chemical toilets every week.

I'm a bit of an ascetic; I can live reasonably happy with nothing more than you'd find in the smallest motor home - and power for my computer, and an internet connection. Hiring a crew to live like that, and then expecting them to follow your orders and be happy about it, that gets a bit trickier. If you're going to spend tens or hundreds of millions of credits on a ship, it pays to spend a bit extra to make sure you're getting something other than the dregs of the employment barrel.

There is a very nice modular shelter covered in JTAS #6, pages 35-36: the Model 317 Pressurized Shelter, by GSbAG. Bunks 8 persons, with fresher, kitchen facilities, its own water and atmosphere recycler, own power plant good for 100 days operation, and can store 800 person-days of food. Also has an airlock. Total cost for this is Cr50,000. Size is 7.5 by 7.5 by 3 meters.

That would make a nice basis for a cargo hold passenger module, or for use as the basis for crew space onboard a ship. Marc Miller wrote the article, so it is about as canonical as you can get.

It does sort of play hob though with the costs for space ship staterooms.

Se above note about spartan small craft cabins. This is 12.5 dTons volume. Fits 8 people. Still costs more to fly this way than to fly low berth, so it's not going to replace low berths, but it's useful for those same situations where that small craft cabin container module might be useful, and for the same reasons. Also smaller than equivalent tonnage in small craft cabin container modules, so more useful - and more comfortable: it's got it's own galley and a shower, more luxury than what I'd allow a small craft cabin equivalent, though you pay for it in lack of privacy. I can't see a ship owner having one, 'cause it takes up space when not in use, but I could see a starport keeping them and renting them out for, say, those types who might have a limited budget and a religious disinclination to cold sleep.

 

[rancke]

The problem, as I see it, is that the rules are too crude. They assume that one size fits all, and while that works if people don't want to bother with micro-managing their free trader, it provides no support for the campaign where the players do want to fiddle with fine-tuning their hardscrabble life.

The basic rules have four levels of accomodation for long-term subsistence: Starvation level, subsistence level, ordinary level, and high living¹. Shouldn't the rules allow for at least as much for starship accomodation? Say, the absolute minimum that no one will use unless they have no choice, the hand-to-mouth existence that a free trader crew might have to be content with, the ordinary living that regular crew and mid passengers expect, and the first class accomodation that first class passengers expect.

¹ And that doesn't really cover enough levels IMO (I'd sandwich in a 'good living' between ordinary level and high living and add a luxury level above high living)​

Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

The problem, as I see it, is that the rules are too crude. They assume that one size fits all, and while that works if people don't want to bother with micro-managing their free trader, it provides no support for the campaign where the players do want to fiddle with fine-tuning their hardscrabble life.

The basic rules have four levels of accomodation for long-term subsistence: Starvation level, subsistence level, ordinary level, and high living¹. Shouldn't the rules allow for at least as much for starship accomodation? Say, the absolute minimum that no one will use unless they have no choice, the hand-to-mouth existence that a free trader crew might have to be content with, the ordinary living that regular crew and mid passengers expect, and the first class accomodation that first class passengers expect.

¹ And that doesn't really cover enough levels IMO (I'd sandwich in a 'good living' between ordinary level and high living and add a luxury level above high living)​

Hans

The rules were meant for roleplay and were simple to make play easy. I agree they're a bit unrealistically simple in this context. The free trader and the other small ships are a bit small for a wide variety of passage rates, but that's no reason not to give the player some flexibility to fill his empty rooms, just as any low cost hotel would do. There's no rationale for not letting haggling and free market forces result in interim rates except to argue some sort of Imperial law, but the Imperium presumably is encouraging interstellar trade - a law of that sort would limit flexibility and discourages interstellar passenger traffic.

I personally as a gamemaster would encourage clever thinking that got the rooms filled. For example, selling double occupancy mid passage at Cr 5000 a head, or a couples (or parent-child) high passage stateroom at Cr 12,000 for the room. If your steward is underworked, you could make a bit of extra money by offering mid passage passengers the opportunity to use steward services for Cr 30 per person per day. Also gives some opportunities for planetbound players: lower cost passages.

And, yes, maybe you could introduce no-frills passenger ships with small-craft-cabin quality rooms. I'd have to design one and figure out the payoff - a ship's rooms are only a small fraction of the total ship's cost, and the rates would still have to pay for the ship's expenses to be worthwhile. Might be something as simple as taking an existing ship and putting some of those modular shelters or small-craft cabin modules in the cargo bay. At a guess, the minimum rate is somewhere between Cr. 2000 and Cr 4000 per person, depending on how much of a discount - if any - you gave for life support costs in those minimalist rooms and how you set it up. (My modules, for example, have ports set in on front, back and the top and bottom so that its possible to travel among them when they're butted together in there, albeit by either going through people's cabins or crawling through a crawlspace.)

That gives us, what, Cr 1000 for low passage, ~Cr 3000 for a cot in a module in the cargo bay, Cr 5000 for a nice standby semi-private room or Cr 6000 for a guaranteed semi-private (sold in pairs) with steward services, Cr 8000 for a standby private room or Cr 10,000 for a private room with steward services. That ought to be more than enough in the way of options, and it ought to keep the ship flying profitably.

 

[rancke]

The rules were meant for roleplay and were simple to make play easy.

Except that some roleplayers don't want their roleplay to be quite THAT simple. Those that do could simply use the average level (or, better yet for free traders, the subsistence level) and ignore the other options. Those who prefer their roleplaying a tiny bit less simplistic would want the option of using different levels of life support. As, indeed, is precisely what the rules for subsistence on a long-term basis provide. Same rules set, different levels of detail for no good reason that I can see.

I agree they're a bit unrealistically simple in this context. The free trader and the other small ships are a bit small for a wide variety of passage rates, but that's no reason not to give the player some flexibility to fill his empty rooms, just as any low cost hotel would do. There's no rationale for not letting haggling and free market forces result in interim rates except to argue some sort of Imperial law, but the Imperium presumably is encouraging interstellar trade - a law of that sort would limit flexibility and discourages interstellar passenger traffic.

Not to mention that a universe where more people can afford interstellar travel IMO opens up more possibilities for adventures.

And, yes, maybe you could introduce no-frills passenger ships with small-craft-cabin quality rooms. I'd have to design one and figure out the payoff - a ship's rooms are only a small fraction of the total ship's cost, and the rates would still have to pay for the ship's expenses to be worthwhile.

The two big factors in determining the cost of starship transportation is cost of ship and number of units transported (followed by life support costs). Thus double occupance will reduce the cost significantly even though the ship costs exactly the same.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Except that some roleplayers don't want their roleplay to be quite THAT simple. Those that do could simply use the average level (or, better yet for free traders, the subsistence level) and ignore the other options. Those who prefer their roleplaying a tiny bit less simplistic would want the option of using different levels of life support. As, indeed, is precisely what the rules for subsistence on a long-term basis provide. Same rules set, different levels of detail for no good reason that I can see.


Not to mention that a universe where more people can afford interstellar travel IMO opens up more possibilities for adventures.


The two big factors in determining the cost of starship transportation is cost of ship and number of units transported (followed by life support costs). Thus double occupance will reduce the cost significantly even though the ship costs exactly the same.


Hans

It closes as many as it opens -

Piracy needs low enough volumes to preclude massive naval presence, and to preclude buddy interventions.

Likewise, cheap travel also means inexpensive shipping of troops...

 

[rancke]

It closes as many as it opens -

I don't think that's true.

Piracy needs low enough volumes to preclude massive naval presence, and to preclude buddy interventions.

The availability of naval forces correlates to planetary population sizes, not to trade volumes. At least not Traveller-level trade volumes. One factor that promotes piracy, on the other hand, is high volume of merchant traffic. So without going so far as to claim that it makes piracy plausible, low transportation costs will certaily not hurt their prospects.

Likewise, cheap travel also means inexpensive shipping of troops...

I don't see how that reduces adventuring possibilities. As a bonus, it might even make canonical Traveller mercenaries more viable.


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

The requirements are how much space does it require to install life support equipment to support an average human, how much fresh water, how much food. Then how much space that he won't feel claustrophobic.

I once flew Air Canada transatlantic; I have no wish to repeat that experience, because sardines may actually have been more comfortable.