T5 MAJOR RACES: ALIENS 1 - 8

[Condottiere]

There might be Galapagosized Vargr, but how many generations do you need for those traits to be distinct and persistent?

While I find the concept unlikely, there might be a master species of Shepherd Vargr who are more disciplined.

 

[tjoneslo]

There might be Galapagosized Vargr, but how many generations do you need for those traits to be distinct and persistent?

While I find the concept unlikely, there might be a master species of Shepherd Vargr who are more disciplined.

Depending upon the traits, anywhere from 6 to 100 or more to get some distinctive traits. Persistent, for which I take to mean dominate, traits require a second (or third) mutation.

The other thing to keep in mind is line breeding (or in-breeding) to expose various traits may expose others as well. I remember an interesting study of a siberian fox farm breeding foxes to make them more docile (tame/domesticated). This took like 4 generations. But it also gave them white spots in their normally red fur.

 

[SanDragon]

Would the Urzaeng be colloquially known as Worgr? Or Dire Vargr?

 

[Condottiere]

Apparently, Vargr are capable of breeding programmes, since they have a goal of recreating Kobe beef. Though the motivation is very much tied in to their sense of reward and hunger.

Until I came across this thread, I had almost zero interest in the Vargr.

 

[rancke]

Apparently, Vargr are capable of breeding programmes, since they have a goal of recreating Kobe beef. Though the motivation is very much tied in to their sense of reward and hunger.

That's a bit I haven't heard of before. Where's it from?

Anyway, while some of the same objections apply (loss of interest and thus funding before the project is complete), there's a big difference between breeding dumb animals with a new generation every two (?) years and breeding sapient beings with a new generation every 15 or 20 years. Both in terms of time needed and enforcement problems.

Natural genetic drift due to isolation, a limited gene pool, and impersonal natural conditions is a different matter.

(Unless, of course, the Ancient made genetic drift hard or impossible in Vargr. :devil


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

Selective breeding of livestock was also undertaken to improve local food and make it more appetising. This practice continues to this day on most Vargr worlds and comprises much of the interstellar trade in the Vargr Extents.

Making my way through Mongoose Vargr, There seems to be a belief that they are perfect, at least in some parts of their society, so they may be disinclined to meddle directly with their genes.

I may start reading some furry comics to get a better grip on this psychology.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Making my way through Mongoose Vargr, There seems to be a belief that they are perfect, at least in some parts of their society, so they may be disinclined to meddle directly with their genes.

I may as well thro my two bits in.

The group you are looking for is "The Church of the Chosen ones", a Vargr 'religion' which essentially adheres to the view that the Ancients elevated the Vargr for a special purpose.

A short paraphrase from V&V p42....
Some members of Gvegh culture have their belief in Kaenguerradz, racial superiority. 'High Kaenguerradz' say that Vargr were designed to be better than everyone else. 'Low Kaenguerradz' says then Vargr were the original Terran sapients, and the Ancient moved them to Lair so they wouldn't interfere with the geneering project of the local monkeys (aka proto-humans).

If you really are looking for 'specially bred Vargr', you would look at the Irilitok or the Julian Vargr. The Empire of Gashkin (during long night) grabbed a lot of Vargr slaves, selection being based on how 'humanish' the Vargr looked. After a few hundred years the slaves outnumbered the owners and the inevitable happened. Of course then non-bred Vargr moved back in from Mendan so any changes are being rapidly diluted - but in any case they were still vargr, they just looked a little different (but even then not to the extent being proposed in some cases). (V&V p 47)

I may start reading some furry comics to get a better grip on this psychology.

Furries are (for the most part) humans in funny suits, Vargr are aliens.
Even if they are 'wolf based', wolves (Canis Lupus) have been around for about 1 million years, while humans (Homo sapiens) for only about 250,000 years or so. So when Gramps snached their ancestors away, ours had barely entered the scene. Comparing them to modern wolves is the same as trying to compare us to Homo erectus. Sure, some bits are similiar but a lot is different - especially the brain.

 

[Ishmael]

Making my way through Mongoose Vargr, There seems to be a belief that they are perfect, at least in some parts of their society, so they may be disinclined to meddle directly with their genes.

or worse, engage in some form of eugenics to ensure genetic purity.
Forced sterilization and euthanasia of those deemed 'impure' by idealized standards aren't too far removed from that.

The Urzaeng collect runts, elderly and the chronically ill into separate communities due to the Urzaeng's disdain for weakness.
And they aren't the most radical of the various Vargr groups.

 

[Condottiere]

How can you not project human, dog and wolf personalities, traits, archetypes, stereotypes and tropes on them?

The sheer thought of getting to roleplay them has got to be exhilarating, compared to the more hidebound Aslan.

 

[mike wightman]

And why would there not by an Aslan 'Spartan' clan that has practiced eugenics for millennia in order to produce the perfect warrior race?

Or a group of Aslan females who use artificial insemination to remove the need for males and concentrate on purely intellectual pursuits?

If you want to find races specifically bred to perform a task look to the Hive Federation - but don't look too closely...

 

[GypsyComet]

And why would there not by an Aslan 'Spartan' clan that has practiced eugenics for millennia in order to produce the perfect warrior race?

Or a group of Aslan females who use artificial insemination to remove the need for males and concentrate on purely intellectual pursuits?

Both would probably qualify as cultural deviance, which tends to attract lethal attention from other Aslan.

 

[elbmc1969]

Both would probably qualify as cultural deviance, which tends to attract lethal attention from other Aslan.

Within the Hierate, yes, but there are polities outside of the Hierate with different cultures. They may be viewed with disdain, but there don't seem to be huge crusades.

 

[mike wightman]

Both would probably qualify as cultural deviance, which tends to attract lethal attention from other Aslan.

And yet it is fine for Vargr, humans etc...

 

[GypsyComet]

And yet it is fine for Vargr, humans etc...

Because they are not Aslan.

The Heirate's clans tolerate Imperialized Aslan because of the treaties, but they dropped on the Glorious Empire like a ton of bricks once they had the numbers to do so. The Aslan are violently mono-cultural.

 

[rancke]

The Heirate's clans tolerate Imperialized Aslan because of the treaties, but they dropped on the Glorious Empire like a ton of bricks once they had the numbers to do so. The Aslan are violently mono-cultural.

The Aslans are rampant hypocrites. It is unthinkable that any Aslan clan lord will break his word¹. Unless, that is, the word is to someone who proves to be unworthy. 'Un-Aslan conduct' is a wonderful excuse for breaking your word at the most opportune moment. The Glorious Empire made a wonderful target and the moment it was weak enough, the jackals jumped it. And in this particular case without even having to break any treaties.

(Not that I carry water for the Glorious Empire. By all acounts it is/was a pretty unpleasant setup.)

¹ Doing so would prove him as unworthy² and allow his allies to stab him in the back with impunity).

² Unless he had a good excuse.​

​

Imperialized Aslans, OTOH, are tolerated because they are protected by the Imperium, and any excuse to not get into a fight with the Imperium is a good excuse.


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

With the Aslan you get the feel of the Japanese Sengoku period.

Now that I've had a look at the Vargr, it could reflect our modern society.

 

[GypsyComet]

With the Aslan you get the feel of the Japanese Sengoku period.

Now that I've had a look at the Vargr, it could reflect our modern society.

The best way to implement the vaguely Japanese culture of the Aslan is to not know very much about the real Japanese.

The Vargr appear to have several modes. A lot of Vargr like stability as much as any Human, but are still frequently drawn to new things and ideas. Then there are the archetypes who must shake the place up periodically. I suspect that the mental condition we label megalomania is far more frequent in the Vargr than in Humanity.

You can certainly play a frenetic game changer, a properly stratified professional, or a comfy domestic. For the Vargr to have succeeded as they have, all three are necessary. Mad Scientists need their Igors AND their nearby villagers to survive. The Imperial population of Vargr is probably light on movers and shakers compared to Vargr space, but only slightly so. The Julian population of Vargr may be even lighter, having been subjected to three thousand years of both Vilani and Terran Social Darwinism.

 

[Condottiere]

Can't get around the the image of a pack of very excitted Vargr jostling for position around a human shaking paws and getting petted on the head, as they are praised.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Can't get around the the image of a pack of very excitted Vargr jostling for position around a human shaking paws and getting petted on the head, as they are praised.

A corporation would be a loose analogy of a Vargr government.

The leaders on top of the pile (CEO and board) would be leader of the pack as long as they held the confidence of the shareholders (members) but they are expected to perform great things, but if they lose the confidence by bad decisions or medicore performance they are knocked off their pedestal and a new up and comer takes over - possibly changing the corporate direction with their own idea of how to run things. The lower members would have "sub-groups" of the main all jostling each other for position and prestiege. HR and trying to prove they are better than finance, while the support desk and IT people hate each other and are constantly blame-shifting mistakes so they look better in the eyes of the execs. And then you have sub-sub groups, (networks vs software in the IT dept) and so forth. And if someone doesn't like the way things are run and cant change it, they leave and maybe even for their own company.

But the whole thing works in the end beacuse each leader of the little groups needs to show they are leader material and collect the prestiege to be 'promoted' to the next level, while at the same time watching for brash newcomers who think their chair would look nicer with themselves in it. And all under the overarching 'Company/Government".

Vargr wouldn't have an equivilant "Peter Principle". If you can't handle the 'next level'' someone else will happily snatch it away. And I would think Vargr would perform very well in a human corporate environment - they know who to kiss up to or look down on, how to manage groups to do what they want, and are always looking the the angle to get that Exec position. The downside is of course that things are extremely volatile and unstable in the longer term.

In their case - "The wolf of wall street" would be a historical documentary.

 

[David Johansen]

It would be wildly popular and showings would be attended in wild costumes and throwing kibble at the screen and shouting various responses to important lines would be all but mandatory.