Frankymole
SOC-12
Might lead to something like the Nomads from Freelancer (the computer game), always thought they were a bit Hiver-ish not least for their manipulation of entire empires.
T5 MAJOR RACES: ALIENS 1 - 8
- Thread starter Spaceresearcher
- Start date
Xenos.
Jim AKA GypsyComet,
The "i" ending is used by a number of languages:
- Latin
- Greek
- Russian
- Many other Slavic languages
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
One of my thoughts is that while most Vargr probably evolved from wolf stock, they've had enough time and possibly geneering to have parallel-convergently (simultaneously) evolved dog-like subspecies as well.
If I was part of the balkanized Vargr Extants, I think I would take my Chihuahua people and escape into the wilds to get away from the wolf-dictators.
Just an idea...
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
The only way you would end up with Chihuahua-Vargr is the same way you got Chihuahua in the first place: selectively, and forceably, in-breeding mutants for several generations. I can't imagine any Vargr looking upon the results of that experiment and not being immediately horrified and repulsed.
I don't think you can apply human psychology to Vargr. They think differently and are probably happy with more diversity. Ever notice how Terran dogs are generally happy to see, bark at, and sniff the butt of anything canine?
I think Vargr senses and sensibilities would be much more involved with their sense of smell than their sense of vision as humans often are. So, I would imagine that a Vargr would see a mutant cousin as family, while a human might want to reject a dwarf relative.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I'm told that the healthiest dogs are mongrels.
Vargr selective breeding would be consolidation of dynastic power and money, but considering they seem to be highly socially mobile, that might just be the Top Dog arranging for his children to marry the most promising underlings or as bargaining chips to seal alliances.
Vargr selective breeding would be consolidation of dynastic power and money, but considering they seem to be highly socially mobile, that might just be the Top Dog arranging for his children to marry the most promising underlings or as bargaining chips to seal alliances.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In much the same way as humans do...
I don't think that for roleplaying purposes you can avoid applying human psychology to an alien -- any alien. The alternative is to make up a random action table.
"I insult the Vargr."
"He licks your face."
"I insult him again."
"He rips your throat out."
Of course, the application of human psychology to aliens can and should be distorted in a way to make their reactions suitably alien. But nevertheless rational."He licks your face."
"I insult him again."
"He rips your throat out."
Still, when it comes to applying the kind of treatment it takes to turn a wolf into a chihuahua to a group of Vargr, I find it difficult to imagine any psychological distortion that would make any Vargr feel OK with it.
Hans
You make some excellent points, Hans.
Still, one of the distinctions of "alien" design, is in creating a reasonably different psychology and mindset. I think that's what distinguishes some of the Traveller sophonts from other more widely-used tropes.
And I think that while the Vargr were originated from early "wolves," they are now technology-using sophonts that evolved the last however long period in a different-than-Terra environment with all of the associated affects that might entail.
Of course, this all fiction and unexplored or unproven areas of hypothetical science.
As far as roleplaying goes, you are most correct, however trying to form a motivation, psychology and mindset other than standard human one is to be commended in my opinion. Why play an "alien" if it is not to be alien?
Of course, that is probably my inner Yoda or Bwap speaking...
I think the canine motivation towards pack behavior leads to greater acceptance of very different speciation differences. Terran dog packs can include very different kinds of dogs, large and small. Any ally is a good one, no matter how small, large or different as long as he or she is part of your pack.
Some humans have similar motivations, but they tend to be tribal peoples with the honor-shame paradigm of behavior.
Other humans have difficulty accepting "others" into their midst... think skin color differences (American racial paradigms), size differences (Watusi, pygmy, etc.), or even just cultural differences (Asian Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.).
Dogs, at least the non-technological variety from Terra, seem to be much better at group (pack) integration and acceptance than the majority of 21st century Solomani.
Positive vibes to the Traveller crew.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
I did say 'for roleplaying purposes', which means that the operative word there is 'reasonable'. How can you roleplay an alien if you don't understand how his mind works? And how can you understand how his mind works if it is too alien?
To have fun faking it. I think that playing an alien mindset is a fine ambition. I just don't believe it's really an attainable goal, and that people who do play aliens have to accept and embrace that it's necessary to fake it.
I'm a little confused then. Why would anyone want to create Chihuahua Vargr in the first place, and why would Chihuahua Vargr feel the need to escape their Baseline Vargr neighbors? That is to say, why would baseline Vargr treat Chihuahua Vargr in a way that would make them feel the need to escape?
Why wouldn't the same differences show up among intelligent canines?
Dogs are not intelligent. Wasn't pre-sapient proto-humans pack animals too? Chimps and gorillas are, aren't they? (Orangutans are not).
Hans
I think we can better understand the motivations and mindset of a hypothetical alien if the writers arm the potential players with a well-developed write-up and guidelines, not an easy thing to do.
But I certainly respect what I think might be one of your points, that as humans, we can't really escape our own mindset to a large degree.
Vargr, according to canon, are very balkanized in thought and all Vargr constantly challenge the pack and feel rejected if unsuccessful. And then Vargr groups split into multiple separate groups.
Every Vargr except possibly the alpha, has a chip on his or her shoulder and feels that they should be Alpha...
I think a different set of deep genetic preferences, a different "alien" culture, and a different environment could lead to a different set of differences...
Group social behavior doesn't always function the same amongst different species. The behavior of pre-sapient humans certainly bears significant differences from pre-sapient canines, let alone ones genetically modified by the Ancients.
But, I get what you are saying. Thanks for the intelligent response, Rancke.
Shalom,
M.
Wow....
....I have a lot of time to make up.
Most of the points have been made, but I am gonna touch on them anyways, just because I can and feel the need to.
(Been in Ukraine for 3 years, so I am jonesing for this and I'm gonna let it out.)
Ahem.
1. All words are made up, we didn't come with a complete dictionary imbedded in our DNA. So Sophent, Alien, or giiglypoid doesn't matter, it's whether or not it's understood. Still your choice on what words you like to use or not, as always.
2. Any scientist will tell you, you do not throw all your eggs into one basket (Pun intended.) First you come up with an idea, then come up with a plan, then run that plan using variables and controls as many times as needed to get results. For instance, creating a vaccine would require a few hundred to thousands of possible viable results to be run. Most will die and a percentage will live, some will flourish, some will barely survive, some will peter out, and in all cases there will be non-standard mutations. So Chihuahua Men could be the Vargr version of Dwarfism, Mastiff men the Vargr version of Giantism, and Sphinxlan the Aslan version of Alopecia Universalism. (The result in an Aslan would be a hairless cat, for those of you who want a visual.) (shudder)
Not too mention that ALL DOGS came from one genetic ancestor, so any dog men could easily also evolve from that stocks' genes used to make Vargr. Modern dogs came from the domestication of Proto-Wolves, Modern dog men come from the societal domestication of Proto-Vargr. Man has evolved from early man 300k years ago, so too would Vargr. Science is universal after all.
3. Dogs are a lot more accepting of differences in one another than humans are accepting of differences in one another. A case could be made that threatening mutations might have been eliminated for survival, but non-threatening (Chihuahua, Poodle, Corgi....) might not only have been spared, but even flourished.
4. Lastly, but most importantly, science changes our viewpoint on a lot of things over the decades. This game was originally written 40 years ago, the sound barrier had recently been broken, we'd barely landed on the moon, and most folks had never heard of, much less understood anything about genetics, biological warfare, or viruses. So how could we envision Tech Level 25+ Grandfathers resources, or processes, much less predict that a mere 40 years after this game was first written that most children would be carrying around a pocket-computer/wireless telephone/gaming console/electronic book/library/Scientific Calculator type device that rivals the equivalent of a model 9/bis (exaggerating, I know.) but you get the idea.
So an update to giiglypoid information would be excellent.
Remember, there is nothing written, that cannot be rewritten, what was cannon then, can be minolta now.
So say we all.
....I have a lot of time to make up.
Most of the points have been made, but I am gonna touch on them anyways, just because I can and feel the need to.
(Been in Ukraine for 3 years, so I am jonesing for this and I'm gonna let it out.)
Ahem.
1. All words are made up, we didn't come with a complete dictionary imbedded in our DNA. So Sophent, Alien, or giiglypoid doesn't matter, it's whether or not it's understood. Still your choice on what words you like to use or not, as always.
2. Any scientist will tell you, you do not throw all your eggs into one basket (Pun intended.) First you come up with an idea, then come up with a plan, then run that plan using variables and controls as many times as needed to get results. For instance, creating a vaccine would require a few hundred to thousands of possible viable results to be run. Most will die and a percentage will live, some will flourish, some will barely survive, some will peter out, and in all cases there will be non-standard mutations. So Chihuahua Men could be the Vargr version of Dwarfism, Mastiff men the Vargr version of Giantism, and Sphinxlan the Aslan version of Alopecia Universalism. (The result in an Aslan would be a hairless cat, for those of you who want a visual.) (shudder)
Not too mention that ALL DOGS came from one genetic ancestor, so any dog men could easily also evolve from that stocks' genes used to make Vargr. Modern dogs came from the domestication of Proto-Wolves, Modern dog men come from the societal domestication of Proto-Vargr. Man has evolved from early man 300k years ago, so too would Vargr. Science is universal after all.
3. Dogs are a lot more accepting of differences in one another than humans are accepting of differences in one another. A case could be made that threatening mutations might have been eliminated for survival, but non-threatening (Chihuahua, Poodle, Corgi....) might not only have been spared, but even flourished.
4. Lastly, but most importantly, science changes our viewpoint on a lot of things over the decades. This game was originally written 40 years ago, the sound barrier had recently been broken, we'd barely landed on the moon, and most folks had never heard of, much less understood anything about genetics, biological warfare, or viruses. So how could we envision Tech Level 25+ Grandfathers resources, or processes, much less predict that a mere 40 years after this game was first written that most children would be carrying around a pocket-computer/wireless telephone/gaming console/electronic book/library/Scientific Calculator type device that rivals the equivalent of a model 9/bis (exaggerating, I know.) but you get the idea.
So an update to giiglypoid information would be excellent.
Remember, there is nothing written, that cannot be rewritten, what was cannon then, can be minolta now.
So say we all.
And their equally powerful gregariousness pulls them together again.
Vargr do split up, but usually because the ones who leave can see an opportunity to improve their standing. Otherwise they stay with the pack.
"The key elements in shaping Vargr societies are very strong centrifugal forces resulting from an emphasis on consensus and informal lines of authority, and an equally strong centripetal force resulting from ingrained family-clan-tribe-nation loyalty."
[AM3, p. 4]
In any case, you're overlooking the most important point. The same forces that split ordinary Vargr would split our proto-Chihauhua Vargr before the speciation had time to take effect.
How many generations of dedicated breeding would it take to go from wolves to chihuahuas? That's the number of generations someone would have to compel a population of Vargr to interbreed, evict the culls, and keep the select from breeding with anyone other than the other select. We're taking serious repression of basic Vargr nature over several centuries here.
Hans
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And you, my friend, are overlooking the overwhelming power of mad scientists, hard alcohol, and maniacal laughing...
Seriously, if the gregariousness really overrode the Vargr balkanization motive in most cases, wouldn't the Vargr be able to build lasting space empires... Because, from my understanding of the canon, the Vargr have serious problems making any kind of larger grouping last. The culture and mindset doesn't lend itself to such endeavors. Right?
Then again, you're probably much more of a Traveller expert than me...
Positive vibes to the Traveller community...
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
P.S.
By the way, I am amused that we're arguing about (AKA discussing) hypothetical and fictional humanoid dog-men genetically engineered by a precursor race...
OK, upon consideration I'll grant you the possible existence of motives for creating dwarf Vargr.
However, it seems to me that you're trying to have it both ways. On the one hand you want the dwarf Vargr to escape from their Wolf Vargr overlords, but on the other hand you want the creation of dwarf Vargr to be no big deal. If Vargr will readily accept dwarf Vargr, what need will there be to escape? And if Vargr consider dwarf Vargr to be abominations, why would they sit back calmly for a couple of centuries and tolerate a dedicate breeding program?
In any case, wouldn't that Vargr volatility you speak of tend to have such a project cancelled one way or another (e.g. loss of funding, loss of dedication, internal revolt) long before it bore fruit?
Depends on what time scale you're looking at. Several of the Vargr empires in Gvurrdon have lasted longer than the US. One of them dates back around 700 years. There have been human nations much shorter lived than that. The average Vargr nation is less stable than the average human nation, sure, but there's still room for a lot of variation.
THE VARGR ARE NOT DOG-MEN!! THEY ARE WOLF-MEN!!! :rant:
(Do I really need to add:
?)Hans
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Sort of hard to find a Vargr who's interested in science, and can create a long term institutional breeding programme, and find the sponsors who will maintain funding.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Isolated populace with food concerns seems to have done the trick with Humans here on Earth, and we weren't left in a morphologically pliant state by bug-eyed alien architects. The DGP adventure set on Antiquity in Corridor suggests that the Vargr of Lair may be the surviving population, not the primary. Who knows what sorts of variations were underway when it all hit the fan?
OH?!?......
We weren't.......?!?
I thought we already discussed that since all dogs came from Proto-Wolves 300k years ago, and since Vargr are descended from those same Proto-Wolves genetic code, that modern Vargr could be dogs and wolves using the same genetic evolution?
GypsyComet said:
We weren't.......?!?
rancke said:
I thought we already discussed that since all dogs came from Proto-Wolves 300k years ago, and since Vargr are descended from those same Proto-Wolves genetic code, that modern Vargr could be dogs and wolves using the same genetic evolution?
