T5 MAJOR RACES: ALIENS 1 - 8

[rancke]

I thought we already discussed that since all dogs came from Proto-Wolves 300k years ago, and since Vargr are descended from those same Proto-Wolves genetic code, that modern Vargr could be dogs and wolves using the same genetic evolution?

The argument, which I and others refuted, was that since Vargr are descended from proto-wolves (that were removed from Terra 300,000 years ago) and dogs are descended from wolves (that were still on Terra 15,000 years ago), Vargr might well be descended from dogs, opening the door for Poodle-men and Chihuahua-men and Basset-men and Doberman-men and Collie-men, etc., etc..


Hans

 

[maksimsmelchak]

OK, upon consideration I'll grant you the possible existence of motives for creating dwarf Vargr.

Thank you.

However, it seems to me that you're trying to have it both ways. On the one hand you want the dwarf Vargr to escape from their Wolf Vargr overlords, but on the other hand you want the creation of dwarf Vargr to be no big deal.

I did not intend that message. Good point.

I think that much like the human political class, the Vargr political class AKA overlords represent the poor, unwashed (...unlicked?) masses about as much or as poorly as the oligarchs of many developed 21-century Terran nations...

So, I think that different breeds or subspecies or Vargr probably do fine amongst the greater masses, but are harassed by the elitist, eugenic, technocrat political class.

Chihuahua outcasts probably still trade with the greater mutt Populace, but not with the "purebred" political class of "mighty wolves".

*** Is it just me or this starting to sound like a Harry Potter plotline? ***

If Vargr will readily accept dwarf Vargr, what need will there be to escape?

I think the people with the guns, money, and power dislike the runty mini-wolves, not the greater mutt population...

And if Vargr consider dwarf Vargr to be abominations, why would they sit back calmly for a couple of centuries and tolerate a dedicated breeding program?

I think the eugenicists of "Lair" descent think of the runty mini-wolves as abominations, not the majority of the mixed-breed "mutt" population.

In any case, wouldn't that Vargr volatility you speak of tend to have such a project cancelled one way or another (e.g. loss of funding, loss of dedication, internal revolt) long before it bore fruit?

I think of it as an underground "rebel" movement. And mutation is natural amongst even a healthy population, let alone one exposed to different types of suns than an Earth-standard yellow G star.

Depends on what time scale you're looking at. Several of the Vargr empires in Gvurrdon have lasted longer than the US. One of them dates back around 700 years. There have been human nations much shorter lived than that. The average Vargr nation is less stable than the average human nation, sure, but there's still room for a lot of variation.

I have browsed the Gvurrdon materials, but am not overly familiar with them. From what I've read, there are few lasting Vargr "nations" and amongst those, few of them exist in a harmonious state. Almost all of them are embroiled in serious conflicts near the civil war level.

THE VARGR ARE NOT DOG-MEN!! THEY ARE WOLF-MEN!!! :rant:
Hans

Point conceded. Wolf-men! Arroooohhh! (Channeling Elf-quest!)

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Isolated populace with food concerns seems to have done the trick with Humans here on Earth, and we weren't left in a morphologically pliant state by bug-eyed alien architects. The DGP adventure set on Antiquity in Corridor suggests that the Vargr of Lair may be the surviving population, not the primary. Who knows what sorts of variations were underway when it all hit the fan?

Which adventure was that, Jim?

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[GypsyComet]

Which adventure was that?

"Visit to Antiquity", found in Traveller's Digest #3 (DGP) and The Early Adventures (DGP).

 

[rancke]

I think that much like the human political class, the Vargr political class AKA overlords represent the poor, unwashed (...unlicked?) masses about as much or as poorly as the oligarchs of many developed 21-century Terran nations...

I think the existence of a genetically distinct overlord class is something you've made up out of whole cloth.

So, I think that different breeds or subspecies or Vargr probably do fine amongst the greater masses, but are harassed by the elitist, eugenic, technocrat political class.

To create a Vargr subspecies you'd need a mechanism as powerful as dog breeders are necessary to create distinct dog breeds. Well, that's conceivable. The easy one is separate populations. But to keep them separate once they interact, you need some motivation strong enough to overcome the inborn gregariousness of Vargr -- one of the two most powerful forces in Vargr society.

Chihuahua outcasts probably still trade with the greater mutt Populace, but not with the "purebred" political class of "mighty wolves".

And they'd interbreed with medium-sized Vargr and dilute their distinctiveness.

I think the people with the guns, money, and power dislike the runty mini-wolves, not the greater mutt population...

Guns, money, and power is something small persons can have just as well as big persons.

I think the eugenicists of "Lair" descent think of the runty mini-wolves as abominations, not the majority of the mixed-breed "mutt" population.

What eugenicists?

I think of it as an underground "rebel" movement. And mutation is natural amongst even a healthy population, let alone one exposed to different types of suns than an Earth-standard yellow G star.

Mutations are a given, sure. But to fix a mutation in a subsection of a population is a different matter.

I have browsed the Gvurrdon materials, but am not overly familiar with them. From what I've read, there are few lasting Vargr "nations" and amongst those, few of them exist in a harmonious state. Almost all of them are embroiled in serious conflicts near the civil war level.

There are ways short of violence to have sovereign political organizations coexist. The Vargr employ them all.


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

Going by dog behaviour, I think they're indiscriminate when it comes to breeding.

Any human xenopologists must find the Vargr fascinating, especially when they do comparisons with either domesticated dogs and/or feral ones.

Vargr would be highly line of sight territorial, though I remember a webcomic where a canine antagonist explains that anything she marks is hers.

 

[Ted-Ebay]

Uh oh...

The argument, which I and others refuted, was that since Vargr are descended from proto-wolves (that were removed from Terra 300,000 years ago) and dogs are descended from wolves (that were still on Terra 15,000 years ago), Vargr might well be descended from dogs, opening the door for Poodle-men and Chihuahua-men and Basset-men and Doberman-men and Collie-men, etc., etc..

Crudly-sticks, that is not what I was thinking.

I was thinking that Vargr are descended from Proto-Wolves and then Wolves, just as dogs are descended from Proto-Wolves then Wolves as they are here on Terra. (Sol 1827).

Meaning, if the Dogs of today are so varied, bred for purpose, and descended from Wolves.....then why aren't the Vargr just as likely to be exactly the same.

The Vargr domesticated themselves, some would try to maintain, as they grew as a sapient species, to fit certain roles.

Some Vargr bred for small tight spaces to work on machinery, some breed for war, some breed for herding, etc........as a society was forming, so would inherent roles and thereby certain changes or "Dog" breeds.

Maybe not the ones of which we are familiar, but interesting variants of mostly wolf like commonality.

Perhaps.

 

[mike wightman]

Why haven't humans done the same?

 

[Ishmael]

take a look at the history of eugenics both in the Unites States and abroad.
It took WW2 to cause eugenics to fall out of favor and yet some forms of it are still practiced such as choosing egg/sperm donors for certain traits as well as voluntary abortions to avoid birth defects.

The ideas extended as far back as Plato.
Humans have definitely flirted with the idea with pockets of actual practice over a short term.

Imagine if a race deliberately bred for specific features/traits.... a warrior class for example
It would be like the moties or droyne without needing the influence of coyns ceremonies.

 

[Condottiere]

We seem to do better as general purpose, multi-role sapients.

Considering the inherent instability in Vargr society, they probably ended up with such traits as well.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Take a look at the history of eugenics both in the Unites States and abroad.
It took WW2 to cause eugenics to fall out of favor and yet some forms of it are still practiced such as choosing egg/sperm donors for certain traits as well as voluntary abortions to avoid birth defects.

Eugenics is still around. These days they call it the "Designer Babies" or "Designer Genes" movement/s.

As you mentioned, Ishmael, it also exists with the "Science Baby" market where mostly well-off women are using sperm banks to create children without active or even aware fathers.

I am neither promoting nor discouraging these practices. Just mentioning them.

I can't imagine that they would not be around in the future.

Imagine if a race deliberately bred for specific features/traits.... a warrior class for example
It would be like the moties or droyne without needing the influence of coyns ceremonies.

Then add in the relative autonomy, one can get from living under the "feudal confederation" structure of the Third Imperium, and one can probably get away with crazy things as long as you don't ruffle the feathers of the local duke, marquis, magistrate, etc. There's a lot of room for variant behavior in such a society.

Genetically bred or directed versions of a species seem highly likely in such an environment.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I think the existence of a genetically distinct overlord class is something you've made up out of whole cloth.

I'd like to say I did make it up out of whole cloth, but I didn't.

There are a number of Vargr subspecies that have already been genetically created such as the:
- Akumgeda
- Kokasha
- Nakagun
- Roth Thokken
- Urzaeng

There is also the Vargr Chimera known as the Hunters.

These have been mentioned in:
- Vilani and Vargr: the Coreward Races, The MegaTraveller Alien Vol. 1, © DGP 1990.
- Alien Module 2: Vargr, Third Imperium, © Mongoose Publishing 2009

Those materials might not be full canon, but they have been published with Marc's permission and with Don's awareness of them.

To create a Vargr subspecies you'd need a mechanism as powerful as dog breeders are necessary to create distinct dog breeds. Well, that's conceivable. The easy one is separate populations. But to keep them separate once they interact, you need some motivation strong enough to overcome the inborn gregariousness of Vargr -- one of the two most powerful forces in Vargr society.

Very conceivable.

And they'd interbreed with medium-sized Vargr and dilute their distinctiveness.

Maybe, but if they are isolated on a separate planet, it would be hard to dilute the population. That's how we get weird island variants of species: isolation.

What eugenicists?

That's mostly from my imagination.

However, "pure-breed" groups exist among the Vargr in canon or, at least, semi-canon.

I'll go through some materials and see if I can re-find the materials I'm recalling.

Mutations are a given, sure. But to fix a mutation in a subsection of a population is a different matter.

Isolation.

There are ways short of violence to have sovereign political organizations coexist. The Vargr employ them all.

*** But, are the Vargr any good at those non-violent methods? ***

They may get it right sometimes, but clearly they fail many attempts at non-violence...

Thanks for your response, Hans.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Ishmael]

even if the major groups of Vargr didn't practice eugenics, Grandfather certainly did ( his offspring too ).
DGP's Vilani and Vargr indicate that Grandfather may still be dabbling somewhat

 

[rancke]

I'd like to say I did make it up out of whole cloth, but I didn't.

There are a number of Vargr subspecies that have already been genetically created such as the:
- Akumgeda
- Kokasha
- Nakagun
- Roth Thokken
- Urzaeng

The first three I've no information about. The Roth Tokken rings a bell, but I can't remember what canon has to say about them. The Urzaeng information quoted on the wiki makes them an ethnicity, not a subrace. Are any of them described as a 'genetically distinct overlord class'?

There is also the Vargr Chimera known as the Hunters.

These have been mentioned in:
- Vilani and Vargr: the Coreward Races, The MegaTraveller Alien Vol. 1, © DGP 1990.
- Alien Module 2: Vargr, Third Imperium, © Mongoose Publishing 2009

V&V I have, so if you give me page references I can check them out for myself. MgT: Vargr I don't have, so you'll have to provide quotes.

Those materials might not be full canon, but they have been published with Marc's permission and with Don's awareness of them.

Oh, they're presumably fully canonical. I've no idea what they have to say, however.

Maybe, but if they are isolated on a separate planet, it would be hard to dilute the population. That's how we get weird island variants of species: isolation.

Unless it took place on Lair, any speciation has only had about 10,000 years to apply. And if there's a genetically distinct overlord class too, the proto-dwarfs can't have been isolated from them.

However, "pure-breed" groups exist among the Vargr in canon or, at least, semi-canon.

I'll go through some materials and see if I can re-find the materials I'm recalling.

Yes, please.

*** But, are the Vargr any good at those non-violent methods? ***

Evidently, since it's so widespread a phenomenon.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

The first three I've no information about. The Roth Tokken rings a bell, but I can't remember what canon has to say about them. The Urzaeng information quoted on the wiki makes them an ethnicity, not a subrace. Are any of them described as a 'genetically distinct overlord class'?

V&V I have, so if you give me page references I can check them out for myself. MgT: Vargr I don't have, so you'll have to provide quotes.

From DGP/MT: Vilani & Vargr p.63 (Referee's Eyes Only Section):

Spoiler:

PHYSIOLOGY
Many Imperial sophontologlsts and most Imperial citizens are unaware of the vast numbers of "non-standard" Vargr minorities within the Extents. Members of these minorities have often been the victims of prejudice and ostracism. This treatment prompted them to abandon their "normal" brethren and flee to the sparsely-settled coreward reaches of Vargr space. Thus, Imperials rarely see Vargr who do not conform to the majority stereotype.

Of the few minority Vargr subspecies known to humaniti, most humans are probably the most aware of the unusual Urzaeng subspecies. Taller and more powerfully built than the average human, Urzaeng Vargr are capable of holding their own against an adult Asian male in close combat. Originally
bred by the Ancients for menial labor and guard duty, Urzaeng typically lack the full mental faculties enjoyed by other Vargr.

Other subspecies also exist - they are holdovers from Ancient geneering performed on the proto-Vargr millennia ago.

The diminutive Kokasha, nearly extinct in their refuge in Rukhs Dall, are opposites to the Urzaeng - they were specifically geneered for enhanced mental abilities at the expense of their physical powers.

The Akumgeda of Ksinanirz, Nakagun of Listanaya, and the Roth Thgkken all possess weird psionic talents. Of all these psionic races, the Roth Thokken of Angfutsag are the most bizarre - all are permanently blind from birth. These sightless, superstitious Vargr perform frightful rituals using psionic senses unknown to other races. Rarely obvious and mostly excluded from positions of power, these special Vargr are beings set apart. Outcast from their fellows, they have fled to backwater districts to take up lives of exile. Thus, members of many different subspecies exist in small numbers scattered throughout the Extents and Enclaves, awaiting discovery by curious sophontologists.

From MgT: Alien Module 2: Vargr p.32:

Spoiler:

Subspecies
A little known fact to most outsiders is the number of Vargr subspecies that exist within the Extents. Most of these ethnic minorities were seen as deviations from the ‘perfected’ Vargr race developed by the Ancients and were the victims of prejudice and racial abuse that prompted many of them to leave Vargr society and settle in the unpopulated regions of Vargr space. Most of these subspecies remain unknown to the Imperium and even Vargr knowledge is limited since the subspecies were outcast from Vargr society so long ago. The game mechanics for the subspecies listed here can be found on page 3 of the Character Creation chapter.

Urzaeng: The Urzaeng are one of the few subspecies known to the Imperium and the only subspecies that were not outcast by Vargr society due to their superior physical prowess. Urzaeng average 1.85 metres in height and weigh 70 kilograms. They are more powerfully built than the average human and are physically a match against an adult Aslan. The Urzaeng were originally bred by the Ancients for heavy labour and combat so their increased physical prowess comes at a cost to their mental characteristics. This has resulted in the Urzaeng being a naturally violent people with contempt for weakness.

Kokasha: The Kokasha are all but extinct now and those that remain live in a refuge in Rukhs Dall (known as Trenchans sector in the Imperium). They are the smallest of the subspecies and were engineered by the Ancients to have heightened mental faculties at the expense of their physical attributes. Kokasha are typically 1.45 metres high and weigh 50 kilograms. Females are slightly smaller averaging 1.4 metres high and weighing 45 kilograms.

Akumgeda: Like most other subspecies of Vargr, the Akumgeda fled Lair after their people were ostracised by the majority of the Vargr population. The Akumgeda settled on a number of worlds in Ksinanirz sector and although some of these settlements still exist, many of the packs reintegrated with their brethren as the Vargr expanded throughout the Extents. The Akumgeda appear much like normal Vargr but they tend to have spotted fur. Although unusual, spots are not unknown and the Akumgeda found it easy to blend in with ‘normal Vargr’ unnoticed. What set the Akumgeda apart was their strong psionic ability. Some Vargr postulate that the standard Vargr species only developed psionic powers since the Akumgeda reintegrated with Vargr society but there is no evidence to support this.

Nakagun: This outcast subspecies live in exile in Nakagun sector and are known to possess strange psionic powers. Males and females are similar in size averaging 1.5 metres in height and weighing 55 kilograms. Little else is known of this group since they fled from Lair over a thousand years ago.

Roth Thokken: This subspecies settled in Angfutsag sector and although they look similar to the Nakagun, they are even more peculiar. Their psionic powers are said to be even stranger and more powerful. Further to this, all Roth Thokken are permanently blind from birth. This superstitious group live in seclusion and are known to perform bizarre rituals using psionic senses unknown to anyone outside their group.

 

[rancke]

From DGP/MT: Vilani & Vargr p.63 (Referee's Eyes Only Section):

[...]

From MgT: Alien Module 2: Vargr p.32:

[...]

Thank you. Well, that proves me wrong with a vengeance.

EDIT: Or perhaps not all that wrong. All of these subspecies seem to be the result of Ancient manipulations. They must have lived on Lair for 300,000 years before going into exile. There is no mention of any dogbreeding style speciation at all. Instead we hear of a 'majority stereotype' that appears to be the same from one end of the human border with the Vargr Extents to the other. No "predominantly one color with faces like bulldogs Vargr" in one region and "predominantly another color with faces like retrievers Vargr" in another region. So my objection to Vargr breeding programs remain potentially valid. Indeed, one may conjecture that the genetic plasticity (if that's the term I want) of dogs has been removed from Vargr by the Ancients.

Be that as it may, we apparently have a positive statement that makes the smallest Vargr subspecies average 1.45 meters. That's a lot less of a difference from the average Vargr than the differences from the average wolf you find among dogs. (IMO Traveller authors should avoid absolutes unless it's crucial to an adventure or setting. If the Kokasha had been 'one of the smallest subspecies' instead of 'the smallest of the subspecies', the door would have remained open for smaller ones).


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Those are the Vargr equivalents of human minor races - sub-races genetically engineered by the Ancients rather than selectively bred or naturally evolved.

 

[rancke]

I was thinking that Vargr are descended from Proto-Wolves and then Wolves, just as dogs are descended from Proto-Wolves then Wolves as they are here on Terra. (Sol 1827).

But Vargr aren't descended from wolves, just from proto-wolves. With a massive amount of genetic tinkering to boot.

Meaning, if the Dogs of today are so varied, bred for purpose, and descended from Wolves.....then why aren't the Vargr just as likely to be exactly the same.

Perhaps the Ancient in question removed, accidentally or deliberately, the doggish capacity for variations while he was tinkering with the Vargr.

The Vargr domesticated themselves, some would try to maintain, as they grew as a sapient species, to fit certain roles.

Some Vargr bred for small tight spaces to work on machinery, some breed for war, some breed for herding, etc........as a society was forming, so would inherent roles and thereby certain changes or "Dog" breeds.

Dog breeding requires a strongly repressive enforced regime to create and maintain a breed. If this is also the case with Vargr breeding, creating a breeding program and keeping it up long enough to be successful would be a very difficult task.


Hans

 

[Ted-Ebay]

But Vargr aren't descended from wolves, just from proto-wolves. With a massive amount of genetic tinkering to boot.


Perhaps the Ancient in question removed, accidentally or deliberately, the doggish capacity for variations while he was tinkering with the Vargr.


Dog breeding requires a strongly repressive enforced regime to create and maintain a breed. If this is also the case with Vargr breeding, creating a breeding program and keeping it up long enough to be successful would be a very difficult task.


Hans

I see Grandfather as being capable of making all of the above happen. Do we attribute it all to Grandfather then?

Can we safely assume, that since there are no "known" species other than what has been written about so far, means there are no other species on isolated planets in Vargr space? That there are no Chihuahua-Vargr, bred for intelligence and science, that are secretly using psycho-history to keep themselves protected from outsiders because they fear most other species, including their Vargr brethren?

Or flip it around, and even though there are subspecies reported, maybe Grandfather specifically limited the variance possibilities to keep them within a set parameter?

We can conjecture all we like, but the trend in most games is this; gamers will believe that the works which are written are the parameters of the game, do not color outside of those lines. When something outside of those lines is introduce, the gamers will accept it and redefine the lines.

So, is it possible? Sure.
Is it canon? Nope.
Is it probable? Only Marc knows.

So, we debate it, he reads the debates, and maybe, just maybe, some of our ideas become the next piece of canon material.

So I say, let's continue.......

Giiglypoid idea: Vargr/? - subspecies, if a caste system based on breeding is discovered in isolation. I like the idea of bulky brutish Gray Wolf variant as warrior, and maybe the small agile Honshu Wolf variant as counselor........(Notice I kept it Wolf variants, no dog breeds?)

 

[rancke]

I see Grandfather as being capable of making all of the above happen. Do we attribute it all to Grandfather then?

Propably not Grandfather. More likely one of the 420 kids and grandkids. I don't remember if the one responsible for the Vargr has been named?

And up till now, all subspecies of Vargr have been attributed to this Ancient, yes. None of them have been attirbuted to dogbreeding style forced evolution, or to plain ordinary leisury evolution either.

Can we safely assume, that since there are no "known" species other than what has been written about so far, means there are no other species on isolated planets in Vargr space?

A different species seems a little unlikely, although not, I suppose, entirely impossible. Different breeds shaped by impersonal living conditions is quite possible. Different breeds created by deliberate breeding projects seems a lot less likely.

That there are no Chihuahua-Vargr, bred for intelligence and science, that are secretly using psycho-history to keep themselves protected from outsiders because they fear most other species, including their Vargr brethren?

Bred by whom?

So, we debate it, [Marc] reads the debates, and maybe, just maybe, some of our ideas become the next piece of canon material.

So I say, let's continue.......

Has anyone suggested that we shouldn't?


Hans