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T5 Worldbuild Take 1

While I have found no specific mention of Lemish, it does discuss the Corridor sector. After word arrives of Strephon's murder and the Corridor fleets were stripped to fight Dulinor, the Vargr swept rimward and overrun the systems between Deneb and Vland.
I think there's a bit missing there.

"After word arrives of Strephon's murder and the Corridor fleets were stripped to fight Dulinor, the Vargr pulled out their Ancient reality-bending devices and swept rimward and overran the systems between Deneb and Vland."​
There, that makes a bit more sense.


Hans
 
"After word arrives of Strephon's murder and the Corridor fleets were stripped to fight Dulinor, the Vargr pulled out their Ancient reality-bending devices and swept rimward and overran the systems between Deneb and Vland."​
There, that makes a bit more sense.
Hans

Actually that makes total sense as there are supposed to be a lot more ancient sites in Vargr space,

Regards

David
 
I'm so glad I could be of help in settling this vexing conundrum. :rofl:


Hans
If I understand your suspicions against canonical history, it is that the Vargr are too disorganized, even with utovogh technology, to mount a large enough fleet to take out the left over defenses of the Corridor sector in general and Lemish in particular?

I have not found where it discusses military budgets under T5 but Striker book 2 tells me a TL=12 world of a million people generates 15.36 Billion Credits GNP. 3 % of that, (minus 30% that goes to the Imperium,) comes to 193 MCr for the Lemish Naval Budget, and 124 MCr for the Lemishi Army. What kind of defenses could I get with that?

Alternately, Lemish produces 560 RUs, of which 11.76 is budgeted for the colonial military.

Lemishi Army would be augmented, possibly, by a battalion of Imperial Marines, (RbSB pg 37) and a brigade of Ducal Huscarles. Possibly, maybe. Also a company of baronial huscarles. Not sure how effective ground troops would be against ortillery. But they would be effective at assisting evacuation of population centers and reducing civilian casualties.

(The first time I saw the word, in a moment of dyslexia, I pronounced the word "Hus-ka-leers" almost rhymes with Muskateers. Later, our daughter was discussing gaming with the baroness and myself, our son and their spouses, and she said she wanted to be a Huskaleer. I tried to correct the pronounciation, but she said she liked her way better. So we are going to write it off as a strange dialectal glitch.)

We need to figure out force composition for Lemish, and the Glory of Taarskorzn, and the coursair mercenaries, then we will have a better idea.
 
If I understand your suspicions against canonical history, it is that the Vargr are too disorganized, even with utovogh technology, to mount a large enough fleet to take out the left over defenses of the Corridor sector in general and Lemish in particular?
Not quite, although I do think that the utovogh technology might supply motives to invade the Imperium, but it's not going to supply any enhanced organizational ability. You could also contemplate how many Europeans that stayed behind and DIDN'T go on the crusades.

But Lemish is weak enough that a p-d off corsair captain MIGHT be able to gather enough fellow corsairs to overwhelm Lemish's defenses. I definitely wouldn't argue that it couldn't happen.

I have not found where it discusses military budgets under T5 but Striker book 2 tells me a TL=12 world of a million people generates 15.36 Billion Credits GNP. 3 % of that, (minus 30% that goes to the Imperium,) comes to 193 MCr for the Lemish Naval Budget, and 124 MCr for the Lemishi Army. What kind of defenses could I get with that?
I calculated a budget for Lemish in post #74 of the Corridor Fleet thread. I maximized the budget by assuming that the people of Lemish would be scared enough of the Vargr Menace to pay 10% of GWP in military taxes and that the population was 1.9 million. Additionally, the split between the army and the navy can be different from the figure in Striker. For example, the army portion could be 40% of the average that Imperial worlds spend (3%), with every bit of the seven extra percentage points going to the navy. Or it could be something in between.

As for what you can get for it, using the VERY crude maintenance figure from TCS, MCr193 can support a fleet costing MCr1,930 from new. That would support 7.6 200T SDBs (Fighting Ship prices).

Lemishi Army would be augmented, possibly, by a battalion of Imperial Marines, (RbSB pg 37) and a brigade of Ducal Huscarles. Possibly, maybe.
A brigade of huscarles is what the Duke has.

If his capital is safe from the Vargr Menace, he might well lend some other troops to Lemish. If his capital is actually threathened, he might not.

Also a company of baronial huscarles.
The baron's huscarles are paid for out of his personal income and maintaining soldiers is expensive. How much personal income would the Baron of Lemish have?

We need to figure out force composition for Lemish, and the Glory of Taarskorzn, and the corsair mercenaries, then we will have a better idea.
The Provence Sector data are up on the wiki. You could extract the GoT worlds from that and do a rough estimate. Though the figure you'll get is going to be the total strength of the pocket empire, so bear in mind my point about the Crusades stay-at-homes.


Hans
 
First and foremost, thank you for this discussion.

I calculated a budget for Lemish in post #74 of the Corridor Fleet thread. I maximized the budget by assuming that the people of Lemish would be scared enough of the Vargr Menace to pay 10% of GWP in military taxes and that the population was 1.9 million. Additionally, the split between the army and the navy can be different from the figure in Striker. For example, the army portion could be 40% of the average that Imperial worlds spend (3%), with every bit of the seven extra percentage points going to the navy. Or it could be something in between.
That is a great plan. With Lemish being 5 parsecs from the Vargr border, and subsector capital, and homeport for the 60th and 105th fleet. I fear that the Lemishi won't feel the threat until after the Corridor Fleet leaves. By then, of course, its too late.

Granted the bulk of the fleet will be dispersed throughout the subsector, and there are 6 other naval bases in the subsector, but the presense of the fleet would probably lull the Lemishi into a false sense of security.

As for what you can get for it, using the VERY crude maintenance figure from TCS, MCr193 can support a fleet costing MCr1,930 from new. That would support 7.6 200T SDBs (Fighting Ship prices).
Hmm. Still need to pay crew salaries and have funds around to replace or add ships later on. Call it 6 for now.
A brigade of huscarles is what the Duke has.
Rebellion Sourcebook pg. 37 Expected Troop Strengths on a Specific World states that for a TL 12 world with a population of 6 AND a tainted atmosphere, says there is 1 Battalion. It does not specify whose troops those are.
If his capital is safe from the Vargr Menace, he might well lend some other troops to Lemish. If his capital is actually threathened, he might not.
Lemish Imperial Starport is situated between the towns of Franklin, to the east and Kudra (formerly Novograd) to the west. While Franklin is the system/planetary capital, Kudra is the subsector capital. So if the Starport is threatened, and the naval base therein, so is the duke's lands.

The Duke is also the largest landowner on the planet.

The baron's huscarles are paid for out of his personal income and maintaining soldiers is expensive. How much personal income would the Baron of Lemish have?
We've had this disagreement before.:) Barons get 8 hexes. With 2 trade codes, that is 160,000 credits per anum. Moot proxie is only another 100,000 credits. even adding in the knighthoods (4 more hexes with 2 trade codes each) is only another 80,000 credits.

This baron only makes 340,000 credits a year. Why do you think I am billing people for doing math? :D

Duke Craig, in another thread posted a collection of military units along with prices at http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=31594. A 42 man TL9 light infantry platoon runs for 2.14 MCr. I can afford a kid with a popgun if I had to pay for it out of my baronial pay.

Heck this is a third of what Chuck Anumia makes.

Which is a big reason why I think there are certain things that are paid for by the baron's expense account, rather than out of the baron's personal paycheck. Just like the Governor of Montana does not pay for his security detail. (I used Montana because of the population somewhat matches Lemish). Things that are related to the job of a noble should or will have to be paid for outside of the noble's paycheck, if you are doing the job of a noble.

The Provence Sector data are up on the wiki. You could extract the GoT worlds from that and do a rough estimate. Though the figure you'll get is going to be the total strength of the pocket empire, so bear in mind my point about the Crusades stay-at-homes.


Hans
That is going to take some time, but I feel it should not be hard for the Vargr to gather a dozen coursairs for a raid. Perhaps if we have enough of the Corridor sector nobility mapped out, we can refight the issue.
 
With Lemish being 5 parsecs from the Vargr border, and subsector capital, and homeport for the 60th and 105th fleet. I fear that the Lemishi won't feel the threat until after the Corridor Fleet leaves. By then, of course, its too late.
That's your call. Personally I think that if the Imperial forces are stationed in other systems, the inhabitants of Lemish could well feel the threat of a Vargr raid even before the Corridor Fleet leaves. After all, no number of ships stationed elsewhere are going to be of any help against a raid. If, on the other hand, there is normally an Imperial squadron stationed in the Lemish system, the inhabitants may well be complacent. As I said, your call.

I don't see the problem with assuming a population of 1.9 million, though. Indeed, it has the additional advantage of leaving you a population of 900,000 instead of a population of close to nothing after the Vargr kills "a million" of them.

Hmm. Still need to pay crew salaries and have funds around to replace or add ships later on.
No, that's included. The TCS maintnance rule spends a whopping 10% of original cost of the ships per year. That's enough to account for everything, up to and including peacetime replacement. If anything, a small navy like Lemish's might be able to make do with a good deal less, since, as I said, the TCS rule is very crude.

Call it 6 for now. Rebellion Sourcebook pg. 37 Expected Troop Strengths on a Specific World states that for a TL 12 world with a population of 6 AND a tainted atmosphere, says there is 1 Battalion. It does not specify whose troops those are.
Those are generic rules meant for large-scale troop determination (FFW scale). Concentrating on a single small instance, you can go into a lot more detail. Striker scale.

The Duke is also the largest landowner on the planet.
Duke?

It's not really the geographical extent of his estate that matters. It's how many tenants he has. Land is a great source of wealth, but only if you have rentpayers living on it.

We've had this disagreement before.:) Barons get 8 hexes. With 2 trade codes, that is 160,000 credits per anum. Moot proxie is only another 100,000 credits. even adding in the knighthoods (4 more hexes with 2 trade codes each) is only another 80,000 credits.

This baron only makes 340,000 credits a year. Why do you think I am billing people for doing math? :D
I don't see the disagreement.

Duke Craig, in another thread posted a collection of military units along with prices at http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=31594. A 42 man TL9 light infantry platoon runs for 2.14 MCr. I can afford a kid with a popgun if I had to pay for it out of my baronial pay.
Which is why you're probably not going to be funding many huscarles.

Which is a big reason why I think there are certain things that are paid for by the baron's expense account, rather than out of the baron's personal paycheck. Just like the Governor of Montana does not pay for his security detail. (I used Montana because of the population somewhat matches Lemish). Things that are related to the job of a noble should or will have to be paid for outside of the noble's paycheck, if you are doing the job of a noble.
You're talking about the baron's second job as world ruler? I couldn't agree with you more. Any troops he has to order about would be Lemish Army troops, not baronial huscarles.

That is going to take some time, but I feel it should not be hard for the Vargr to gather a dozen coursairs for a raid.
I said that too. Twice.


Hans
 
Which leads to the idea of the ranch fences coming down during either destruction (Vargr or Virus) and the T-Rexes roaming free over Lemish. This in turn attracting Vargr hunting parties, and hilarous hijinx (business opportunities?) ensue.

Sorry I meant to suggest earlier my idea of a tL12 farm is the one in Star Wars, where robots are used to do the work & the farmers spend their time fixing them and racing.

All industial worlds have tainted atmospheres, so you could be farming over the ruins of a lost civilisation,

Regards

David
 
Sorry I meant to suggest earlier my idea of a tL12 farm is the one in Star Wars, where robots are used to do the work & the farmers spend their time fixing them and racing.
Interesting. Lemish looks more like Endor or Oregon than Tatoonine, but not a bad idea.

All industial worlds have tainted atmospheres, so you could be farming over the ruins of a lost civilisation,
And after the Vargr and Virus get through, it will be again :)
 
The other planets in the Lemish system

I finally rolled up the rest of the planets for the Lemish system

Orbit 0: 0.2 AU. Gas Giant Size T (LGG) size 27, ~90,000 mile diameter, Jupiter size. VANGON
Orbit Oh, 2,160,000 Km, LEMISH, Mainworld A79568C-C
Orbit 1: 0.4 AU. Hospitable StSAHPGL-T (1st) KHEN F572335-C
Orbit 2: 0.7 AU. Iceworld StSAHPGL-T Pop=DM-6 (5th) ONG H6A9241-C
Orbit 6: 5.2 AU. Iceworld StSAHPGL-T Pop=DM-6 (3rd) GHOURR H300232-C

Orbit 8: 20 AU.Secondary Star M2V NINAGU Mass=.44
Orbit 0: 0.2 AU.Hospitable StSAHPGL-T (2nd) KAKULU F651410-C
Orbit 4: 1.6 AUs. Bigworld, StSAHPGL-T, Siz=17 (4th) OURATH YGAA000-C
Orbit 11: 77 AUs. Iceworld Pop=DM-6 (6th) SUKASHAD Y800000-C

So, Khen and Kakulu have a few people 1,000 and 10,000 people. There are about 100 people on each of the two iceworlds, Ong and Ghourr. What are they doing there?
 
Ong and Ghourr.

What are those 100s of people doing? Why Ice Mining of course. That and watching out for Ice Pirates. :p

Ong & Ghourr, LIC. Specialty Ices since 932. Use Ong & Ghourr ices at your next party and taste the Cosmos!
 
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What are those 100s of people doing? Why Ice Mining of course. That and watching out for Ice Pirates. :p

Ong & Ghourr, LIC. Specialty Ices since 932. Use Ong & Ghourr ices at your next party and taste the Cosmos!
Why of course, how ever could I have forgotten. O and G, LIC, don't they have that annoying jingle? Starship fuels at down to Lemish prices. Would this possibly be a subsidariy of Makhidkarun?
 
Na.

Why of course, how ever could I have forgotten. O and G, LIC, don't they have that annoying jingle? Starship fuels at down to Lemish prices. Would this possibly be a subsidariy of Makhidkarun?
Naw, they are small, yet slowly expanding, locally owned, Subsector level company. Rumor has it the Baron has a 3% stake in it. :)
 
Naw, they are small, yet slowly expanding, locally owned, Subsector level company. Rumor has it the Baron has a 3% stake in it. :)
He does, does he? Will have to check with the seneschal about that.

In one game I have been involved in, "Ice Piracy" was a term for carving off chunks of ice from a Kuiper belt object. Because the kids liked to call themselves "Ice Pirate" Their justification involved noting that originally "buccaneers" started off as land lubbing cooks, who barbequed up the local pigs for the seagoing trade.
 
Astrometrics: The problem with Lemish's orbit

As originally rolled, Lemish was rolled into orbit Oh of the Gas Giant. For a size T gas giant, orbit Oh has a radius of 2.16 million kilometers. Since an M class star only has orbit zero as the habitablity zone, and orbit zero is 0.2 AUs or 30 million kilometers. This does not seem reasonable.

The idea that Lemish is a moon of Vangon gives the place a "not Kansas" feel, and something I wanted to keep. Also, without Vangon, Lemish is tidally locked to the main star, Ishan, which seems boring.

So, whipping out Excel spreadsheet, I began looking at closer orbits. Orbits below Orbit Em are locked to the primary, but being tidally locked to Vangon would give a more earthlike day/night rhythm than being locked to the star Ishan.

Orbits below Eee are inside Vangon, whose radius is 145,000 Km. Orbit Aich (270,000Km) gives a 21.75 Hr orbit. Since Lemish is tidally locked to Vangon, 1 trip around Vangon equals 1 full day/night cycle. At this distance, Vangon covers 65 degrees of the sky. This means the eclipse of Ishan, by Vangon lasts 3.92 hrs, out of a 10.825 hr daylight time.

With almost 4 hours of every day in the shadow of Vangon, temperatures would drop. Since (orbit time minus eclipse time) divided by orbit time give you the ratio of how much sunlight Lemish receives versus how much it would receive without Vangon, it seems reasonable that should be how much cooler Lemish would be. For orbit Aich, 270,000 Km, Vangon's 65 degrees of sky yields a ratio of 0.8195 ((21.75-3.92)/21.75). We shall call this the "eclipsing ratio".

Using formulas from LBB 5, an orbit .2 AUs from an M1V star yields an average planetary temperature of 291 K. By comparision, Earth has a temperature of 288 K. With the daily eclipse allowing only 82 percent the sunlight that Lemish would otherwise get, that would bring the average temperature down to 239 K. This is not quite habitable.

Two options: 1) Tighten Vangon's orbit around Ishan. This increases the average temperature without affecting day/night cycle. Problem is, this require a large change. Bringing this orbit as tight as .15 AUs (22.5 million km) only gets temperature up to 275.57 degrees

2) Lengthen Lemish's orbit around Vangon. This lengthens the day/night cycle, makes Vangon smaller in the sky, but reduces the eclipse ratio. At orbit Eye, (540,000 km) Vangon is 31 degrees. Its 5.32 Hr eclipse comes out of a 61.5 hr day/night cycle, for a ratio of 0.9135.

The two options are not mutually exclusive. Somewhere there is a balance where....

0.17 AUs gives a temperature of 315.85 K. With an eclipsing ration of .9135, final temp is 288.5, or earth normal.

First question: How good is one's artistic license? Is this kosher by the rules?
 
Orbits below Eee are inside Vangon, whose radius is 145,000 Km. Orbit Aich (270,000Km) gives a 21.75 Hr orbit. Since Lemish is tidally locked to Vangon, 1 trip around Vangon equals 1 full day/night cycle. At this distance, Vangon covers 65 degrees of the sky. This means the eclipse of Ishan, by Vangon lasts 3.92 hrs, out of a 10.825 hr daylight time.

With almost 4 hours of every day in the shadow of Vangon, temperatures would drop. Since (orbit time minus eclipse time) divided by orbit time give you the ratio of how much sunlight Lemish receives versus how much it would receive without Vangon, it seems reasonable that should be how much cooler Lemish would be. For orbit Aich, 270,000 Km, Vangon's 65 degrees of sky yields a ratio of 0.8195 ((21.75-3.92)/21.75). We shall call this the "eclipsing ratio".

Using formulas from LBB 5, an orbit .2 AUs from an M1V star yields an average planetary temperature of 291 K. By comparision, Earth has a temperature of 288 K. With the daily eclipse allowing only 82 percent the sunlight that Lemish would otherwise get, that would bring the average temperature down to 239 K. This is not quite habitable.
You need to add energy for reflection from the dayside of Vangon onto the facing side, which should up the energy by quite a bit. Plus, there's the absorbed blackbody radiation from Vangon as well.

So if Vangon has a .25 albedo (about midway Between jupiter and luna), it's insolation for about the reciprocal of the blackout is up by about a factor of +0.25... so add another 18x0.25=4.5% for direct, and then that fades to no net effect somewhere around the far side... so, really, it should be (rough estimate by proportion) about 13°K, and then blackbody radiation from Vangon applies throughout, so if it's close enough, that could raise it by a considerable amount as well.
 
You need to add energy for reflection from the dayside of Vangon onto the facing side, which should up the energy by quite a bit. Plus, there's the absorbed blackbody radiation from Vangon as well.

So if Vangon has a .25 albedo (about midway Between jupiter and luna), it's insolation for about the reciprocal of the blackout is up by about a factor of +0.25... so add another 18x0.25=4.5% for direct, and then that fades to no net effect somewhere around the far side... so, really, it should be (rough estimate by proportion) about 13°K, and then blackbody radiation from Vangon applies throughout, so if it's close enough, that could raise it by a considerable amount as well.
Of COURSE!! duh! Thanks for this. I was so worried about the effect of the eclipse, I completely forgot that night time on Lemish isn't that dark.

Vangon's size makes it an almost copy of Jupiter (thank you dice gods) Jupiter's geometric albedo is 0.52. Bond albedo is 0.343. Not sure yet how to work all this out. I need to look at this a bit. Thank you so very much for bringing this up.
 
Of COURSE!! duh! Thanks for this. I was so worried about the effect of the eclipse, I completely forgot that night time on Lemish isn't that dark.

Vangon's size makes it an almost copy of Jupiter (thank you dice gods) Jupiter's geometric albedo is 0.52. Bond albedo is 0.343. Not sure yet how to work all this out. I need to look at this a bit. Thank you so very much for bringing this up.

Don't forget Vangon's own heat-of-collapse, which exits via blackbody radiation, either, if it's jupiter sized. If it's close enough for tidelock, it's probably close enough to be picking up several more degrees from IR generated by blackbody radiation of Vangon itself.
 
Don't forget Vangon's own heat-of-collapse, which exits via blackbody radiation, either, if it's jupiter sized. If it's close enough for tidelock, it's probably close enough to be picking up several more degrees from IR generated by blackbody radiation of Vangon itself.
Okay, Vangon would be in thermal equilibrium, at whatever the orbit temperature is. Orbit temp is based on albedo, and distance.

In thinking of this, it seems my idea that Vangon would be Jupiter may be in error as well. I found an article on something called "Sudarsky exoplanet classification system" It is "a theoretical model-based classification system for predicting the appearance of extrasolar gas giants based on their temperature."
Class II: Water clouds[edit]

Planets in class II are too warm to form ammonia clouds: instead their clouds are made up of water vapor. These characteristics are expected for planets with temperatures below around 250 K.[2] Water clouds are more reflective than ammonia clouds, and the predicted Bond albedo of a class II planet around a sunlike star is 0.81. Even though the clouds on such a planet would be similar to those of Earth, the atmosphere would still consist mainly of hydrogen and hydrogen-rich molecules such as methane.

Examples of possible class II planets: HD 45364 b and HD 45364 c.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarsky_extrasolar_planet_classification

This requires further thought.
 
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