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The Grognard Problem

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There's a grognard problem?
(smile) well it depends on your perspective. for some people, yes, there's a serious grognard problem - they're responsible for holding traveller back from new and exciting directions so they need to shut up and go away. but near as I can figure the only thing holding traveller back is the marketing angle. </font>[/QUOTE]I'd have to agree with you on the marketting angle.

T20 Lite is available for free download, but it is just an initial set of rules. I wonder how well a free T20 Lite Introductory Campaign would do as product marketting?
 
I wonder how well a free T20 Lite Introductory Campaign would do as product marketting?
everyone working with t20 seems to be reporting good results with new players, so t20 probably doesn't need anything free. it just needs consumables, lots of consumables. I read elsewhere of people saying they're about to run out of t20 modules could they please have more? we (all) should be churning these out by the dozen.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I wonder how well a free T20 Lite Introductory Campaign would do as product marketting?
everyone working with t20 seems to be reporting good results with new players, so t20 probably doesn't need anything free. it just needs consumables, lots of consumables. I read elsewhere of people saying they're about to run out of t20 modules could they please have more? we (all) should be churning these out by the dozen. </font>[/QUOTE]Hmm, good point. Very good point.
 
lastly, a thought is required as to how to take some initial steps to turning traveller, presently a chaotic mish-mash of disparate grognardian (word?) methods, into a tightly organized spectator sport. may I suggest cd's with anime short stories as a start. the japanese studios produce prodigious amounts of product and seem to be always on the look-out for new themes. a series of coherent traveller short stories might catch their interest. so, instead of selling just a game setting and a set of game rules, the new customer could also find in his game package a cd with a traveller story to spark his interest and let him see, graphically and in detail, exactly what it is that he's playing. hey, it might even be better than what he's playing. this could easily be expanded. an entire series of adventures, one leading to the next, each backed by an anime short-story, one leading to the next, would interest both consumers and spectators and could easily snowball into something big.

marc, hunter, et al, what do you say? Mr. Martin J. Dougherty, how would you like to launch 1248, not just as a game, but also as a short-story series on cd?
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
I read elsewhere of people saying they're about to run out of t20 modules could they please have more? we (all) should be churning these out by the dozen.
How about producing a free conversion PDF for the FFE's classic adventures and short adventures supplements?
 
Having a cd with ship animations and deckplans, walkthroughs, and short stories like those produced by Andrew and Scarecrow would be a good place to start IMHO.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
lastly, a thought is required as to how to take some initial steps to turning traveller, presently a chaotic mish-mash of disparate grognardian (word?) methods, into a tightly organized spectator sport. may I suggest cd's with anime short stories as a start. the japanese studios produce prodigious amounts of product and seem to be always on the look-out for new themes. a series of coherent traveller short stories might catch their interest. so, instead of selling just a game setting and a set of game rules, the new customer could also find in his game package a cd with a traveller story to spark his interest and let him see, graphically and in detail, exactly what it is that he's playing. hey, it might even be better than what he's playing. this could easily be expanded. an entire series of adventures, one leading to the next, each backed by an anime short-story, one leading to the next, would interest both consumers and spectators and could easily snowball into something big.

marc, hunter, et al, what do you say? Mr. Martin J. Dougherty, how would you like to launch 1248, not just as a game, but also as a short-story series on cd?
What about a tie-in with something already produced? Traveller: Planetes seems like a nice fit, but I don't know what kind of liscencing requirements there would be for a game adaptation of an anime.
 
The old WoD books tried putting a comic in the front, I don't think it really made much difference to sales.

People have also tried CDs too occasionally (usually on limited editions), they've not made a lot of difference either.

Here's a revolutionary concept - I know, this is going to sound wacky to people like flykiller who'd rather go do something really bizarre or expensive for no gain, but hear me out. How about... updating Traveller to a modern ruleset that a lot of people use, putting everything you need for the basics of the game into one big corebook, and then releasing setting books for that?

Oh wait, that's already been done, it's called T20. And GURPS Traveller.

Traveller doesn't need another version. It's already been flogged to death as it is. What would be nice however is some actual new hardcopy to come out of QLI to give the impression that it is still alive...
 
If you really want to cover all the bases you should have a White Wolf based version as well.

Has anyone out there tried adapting the new World of Darkness rules to Traveller?

I know Aramis did a pretty good set based on the old system.

There are quite a few simple system adaptations of Traveller out there, Risus Traveller, and Savage Worlds Traveller being two of my favourites.

Oh, and EABA can be adapted too.

But IMHO there should be a living set of core Traveller rules out there that are a continuation of the classic line - I personally liked the idea of CT+ a great deal.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
[QB] If you really want to cover all the bases you should have a White Wolf based version as well.
People can do that for their own games, but WW doesn't license out their system officially.


But IMHO there should be a living set of core Traveller rules out there that are a continuation of the classic line - I personally liked the idea of CT+ a great deal.
Heck, *I* liked the idea of CT+. Pity Marc is too short-sighted to see its potential, and decided he'd nix the idea and foist his crap on us instead. :(
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Personally, I don't know why Marc doesn't just stop fighting the way things are and start embracing it. He could be churning out stuff for T20 and GT instead of wasting his time on a system that nobody - sorry, 'very few people' - are interested in or that could obstruct the successful versions that are already out there. Why doesn't he do that?
I have to agree that would make the most sense. Personally I would love to see Marc Miller produce more material for CT. Like: Book 9 Vehicles (does for vehicles what Book 8 does for robots and what Book 5 does for starships), Book 10 Advanced Traveller (adds a point system for character creation, adds more equipment to the universe in keeping with our better understanding of what the future may be like, adds more skills, adds a XP/character advancement system.) Do I think he will do this? No. Do I even think he should? Probably not. I doubt it would sell enough copies to make any real profit.

I currently play Gurps Traveller. I love the CT system but it fixes problems that the CT system has. XP and character advancement, more skills (quickdraw, surveilence, etc), ability to customise people within the bounds of reality (1 point of nightvision, code of honor, combat reflexes, etc.) I must completely disagree with assertions that it's not Traveller. I run the game in the year 1100 so it's prior to the divergent timeline. I use the Gurps rules to model the Traveller universe (ie. The Third Imperium) and I often add things from Gurps that weren't in the original universe but should have been. I also limit many items by simply saying; "That doesn't exist in Traveller." (like forceswords) I use a houserule that a characters skill points aren't allowed to exceed his agex3, thereby adding in another facet of the Traveller universe; the tradeoff of age & experience vs. youth and vigor. And since the characters IMTU start the game at 100 points they are the slightly above ordinary joes I used to play in the CT system.

IMO if MM wrote material for GT and T20 it'd reach a larger audience and therefore sell more copies. Wouldn't that make more sense? I think so. Will he do that? I don't know since I don't know the man, but history certainly seems to indicate that it's less than likely.

Does Traveller deserve it's own game system? Yes. It deserves more than that, it deserves to have multiple game systems so that people will play Traveller instead of rejecting it because they don't like the particular game system. And multiple game systems is what it currently has. After years of Traveller lingering in the realm of Abandonware now it's got so much material that I can't buy it all. And that's a good thing.

But does it really need yet another game system? Do we really need/want T5? I don't. I suspect many others don't either. I think that if MM produces T5 it will sit on the shelves and sell very little, much like TNE did. And doG knows we don't need another TNE.
 
I think that if MM produces T5 it will sit on the shelves and sell very little, much like TNE did.
You were doing good up to this sentence. TNE did quite well for itself actually. And we're getting 'another TNE' in 1248, sorry to disappoint you.
 
A) I did state this was my opinion.

B) You'll notice the sentence starts with; "I think..."

C) My understanding is that TNE didn't sell nearly as well as either CT or MT, and that this contributed to the demise of GDW. I've seen many a copy of TNE on a stores shelves for years cause no one would buy it. I've never met a Traveller player that likes TNE. If I'm wrong then great! I hope MM made a $million off of it.

And we're getting 'another TNE' in 1248, sorry to disappoint you.
I feel absolutely no disappointment at all. I hope MM makes another $million, he deserves it. I won't buy it, but its existance won't impact me in the slightest.

Your attempt to upset me has failed Dr. Malenfant.
 
My understanding is that TNE didn't sell nearly as well as either CT or MT, and that this contributed to the demise of GDW.
Urban role playing myth.

TNE had nothing to do with GDW's downfall.

The blame for that lies with:

the TSR Dangerous Journeys lawsuit - wasted too much time even though it didn't cost them anything eventually

printing far too many copies of a Gulf war factbook - I haven't got the title committed to memory right now - when these didn't sell and were returned they were in trouble.
 
Originally posted by Seanr451:
[QB]C) My understanding is that TNE didn't sell nearly as well as either CT or MT, and that this contributed to the demise of GDW.
At best an assumption, at worst a lie spread by TNE-hating grognards.

Dave Nilsen was on here a few months ago explaining all. TNE had nothing to do with GDW closing its doors - the real reasons were the rise of CCGs, which slowed RPG business right down for a lot of companies in the early 90s and the Gulf War Factbook being a bad seller - GDW lost a lot of money on that. It was down to bad economics and bad luck, not TNE.


I've seen many a copy of TNE on a stores shelves for years cause no one would buy it.
You'll find that people usually don't flock to buy any OOP game in their masses.


I've never met a Traveller player that likes TNE.
You have now.


I hope MM makes another $million, he deserves it.
I really doubt he's made anywhere near that amount.

A lot of other people at SJG and QLI are putting a lot of work into the game though. I hope they're the ones that make a lot of money, because they're the ones putting in all the effort.


Your attempt to upset me has failed Dr. Malenfant.
Why do you think I was trying to "upset" you, exactly?
 
Hello Seanr451. I'm known around these parts as Badbru.

I LIKE TNE.

Consider us "met".

Please wander down to the TNE pages here and have a read through the topmost stuck thread : questions for Dave Nilson, and expand your knowledge.
If you personally don't like TNE that is fine, many don't. Many also didn't even give it a chance and/or slag it off without knowing much about it. Though I'm not accusing you of having done so mind.
Welcome to the CotI boards by the way.
 
Originally posted by Seanr451:[QB]
C) My understanding is that TNE didn't sell nearly as well as either CT or MT, and that this contributed to the demise of GDW. I've seen many a copy of TNE on a stores shelves for years cause no one would buy it. I've never met a Traveller player that likes TNE. If I'm wrong then great! I hope MM made a $million off of it.
Actually, TNE did sell ok AFAIK (it just wasn't a really big hit).

GDW was really knocked out by returns of the Desert Storm Fact Book. It had very little to do with TNE (although there was certainly a very vocal brouhaha over TNE on the Traveller Mailing List (TML)).
 
Seanr451,

'Meet' me too.

I didn't use the TNE system as my homebrewed melange of CT/MT/DGP worked just fine for our needs. I also got very little chance to play in the TNE setting because Real World issues like demands of careers, wives, and children slowly killed off my RPG group.

However, I found the TNE setting to be pure gold and I consider the TNE materials to some of the finest ever produced for Traveller. Only a few GURPS:Traveller releases match their overall usefullness and nothing has come close to Path of Tears.

Check out the thread Badbru pointed you to and bring an open mind. You may just be surprised!


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Why do you think I was trying to "upset" you, exactly?
Since I have starting posting on CotI you have replied to almost every post I have made. And in those replies you have disagreed with nearly everything I have ever said on any subject. In your last post you literally took my post apart so you could effectively disagree with every single sentence in my post. Now from your actions on both this and other boards it seems obvious to me that you either have some bone to pick with me, or you're wearing a Ring of Contrariness. It seems to me that you are deliberately seeking out every one of my posts just so you can reply and disagree with everything I have said. If you aren't doing this to upset me then I am at a loss as to your motivation.

As to GDW I read a post by LKW where he said GDW made a lot of money off the first Desert Storm fact book. Then they lost it all by making the second book which didn't sell well. He also mentioned the TSR lawsuit. I don't remember where I got the TNE info, I probably heard scuttlebutt in a FLGS somewhere. Maybe I'm wrong. That's why I prefaced my sentence with this; "My understanding is that..." Obviously my understanding was incorrect. Ok. Was it really necessary for everyone in the thread to jump all over that one sentence and ignore the rest of my post? Well... maybe not.

As for TNE, I have played the game system. When Twilight: 2000 2nd was released. Don't like the system. Don't like the destruction of the Imperium, which is why I didn't play Mega-Traveller. I bought most of the books for the info, but didn't play it. So to summarize TNE: I don't like the system, I don't like the setting, so why would I play it? I don't hate TNE, I just don't want to play it. If you like it then that's great. It matters naught to me one way or the other.

I still haven't met a single Traveller player that likes TNE.

Originally posted by Badbru:
Welcome to the CotI boards by the way.
Thank you.
 
When TNE first came out I hated it.

I hated what they'd done to the Imperium - but then I liked the Hard Times MT setting so wrecking things wasn't the problem, it was Virus.

I hated the new d20 house system - not a patch on the beloved DGP/MT task system.

The technology paradigm had changed yet again, and personal combat was a joke - PCs shrugging off plasma bolts :eek:

Then the supplements started to appear, Path of Tears, Smash and Grab, Vampire Fleets, The Regency Sourcebook, and the setting came alive - so much potential.

Discussions on these very forums have helped me come to a "scientific" rationale for Virus.
Now that I don't despise that concept anymore it allows the tropes of modern sci-fi to be injected into a Traveller game, a little at a time.

The new tech paradigms were well thought out, so I've kept some of them IMTU.

No way will I use the rules system, I'll stick with one or other homebrew.

But the setting - the setting is alive with possibilty for adventure.

Try using GT to run a scenario set in the TNE universe, you may find you like it.
 
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