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The Imperial Army

I'd guess that it all depends on how the Imperium's government actually works, as well.

I mean, we've been told that it is a form of feudalism, but I'm not so sure.

The Imperium has been labeled a feudal structure, but from the description it's an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings. The dukes function more like governors of European empires than vassals and do not subinfeudate. The lesser nobles of a duchy are appointed by the Emperor and swear allegiance to him, not to the duke. What allegiance they owe to their duke is due to him as the representative of the Emperor, not as an feudal overlord. The duchy is the lowest level of interstellar government, which means that counts and viscounts don't actually rule their counties. Most member worlds are not the Emperor's to hand out ownership of, so marquesses and barons do not rule the worlds that are their so-called fiefs. (Unless they have been made Imperial nobles because they were hereditary rulers of their worlds, but then their rulership derives from wearing a different hat).


Hans
 
I mean, we've been told that it is a form of feudalism, but I'm not so sure. Feudalism is a system for structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labor.


Dragoner already pointed out that there are different types of feudalism and I'll remind everyone that Mr. Miller has stated in the past that he considers the Imperium to be a feudal technocracy.

Of course the real trouble is that government labels limited to a single word or phrase are so imprecise. Just mull over how many different kinds of governments can "fit" inside the label of "republic".

The closest real-world analog to this that I can think of is the manner in which the Catholic Church held power during the late medieval through the renaissance.

Funny you should mention the Roman Catholic Church, but I'll get to that after Yet Another Whipsnadian History Haranguetm...

Back in the early 90s I came across something while reading Schoeder's The Transformation of European Politics 1763 - 1848 which wrenched my eyes open. I'd been reading and enjoying history for decades before that but I'd never really thought about how "pre-modern" governments actually worked compared to "modern" governments. In the first chapter of the book, Schroeder explains how the revolution of 1789 in France allowed the political seeds laid by the Treaty of Westphalia over a century before to begin to mature. Westphalia had legitimized the concept of territorial sovereignty but it took the French Revolution and all that followed it to put the concept into general use. By way of explanation, Schroeder used the example of Three Bishoprics in France and the Austrian Netherlands as examples of the older concept of territorial supremacy.

We automatically assume "territorial sovereignty" when we read "nation" or "government". The term "territorial sovereignty" signifies that within a given territorial domain all jurisdiction is exercised by a state over the persons and property to the exclusion of other states while the term "territorial supremacy" signifies within a given territorial domain most jurisdiction is exercised by a state with other states exercising other varying levels of jurisdiction. Putting it another way, within it's domain a sovereign state is the one and only while a supreme state is merely the first of many within it's domain.

Prior to 1789, France was a crazy quilt of different legal codes, tax codes, and even measurement systems. Even odder to are modern eyes were ostensibly French territories like the Three Bishoprics. Verdun, Tours, and Metz had been annexed by France in 1550s with most other European powers acknowledging that in 1648. The Roman Catholic clergy who ruled the bishoprics (told you I'd get back to them) had roles in both the Ancien Regime and the Church. The Church even had rights to taxes and other things within the bishoprics which trumped those of France. France enjoyed territorial supremacy within the bishoprics and not territorial sovereignty.

From 1714 to 1794, Austria "enjoyed" the same sort of control over most of what is now Belgium. The treaty which gave Austria control the region also gave other European powers specific rights there too. When Austria tried to reform and centralize it's administration in the region, it needed to negotiate with those other powers as the proposed changes impinged on the other powers' rights. Naturally, the other powers wanted compensation and Austria's reform efforts were stalled by the diplomatic horse trading. Like France, Austria was only supreme in the region and not sovereign.

After mulling over Schroeder's explanations, I realized that an important part of the Third Imperium's feudal nature is that it is territorial supreme within it's territorial domain and not territorial sovereign.

Therefore:
  • IMTU and like pre-1789 France, the Imperium is a crazy quilt of different territories knit together by conquest, treaties, colonization, and other methods.
  • IMTU and like Austria in the Netherlands, the Imperium finds itself hamstrung on occasion by all the legalities, precedents, and traditions at work within all it's territories.
  • IMTU the government of each member world - and IMTU the Imperium is made of governments and not citizens - has a unique relationship with the Imperium government, a relationship based on how the world first joined the Imperium and what has occurred across the ensuing centuries.
  • IMTU - Imperial nobles play an important role as living treaties. Their duties and prerogatives in a given territory are closely linked to the duties and prerogatives the Imperium enjoys in the same territory.

Let me repeat one last point. We almost always assume "territorial sovereignty" when we read "nation" or "government". That assumption sits at the core of the problem many people have when attempting to understand the Third Imperium. Because we too often assume the Imperium is territorial sovereign, we too often craft an Imperium which is nothing more than a 57th Century version of the US or EU.
 
  • IMTU and like pre-1789 France, the Imperium is a crazy quilt of different territories knit together by conquest, treaties, colonization, and other methods.
  • IMTU and like Austria in the Netherlands, the Imperium finds itself hamstrung on occasion by all the legalities, precedents, and traditions at work within all it's territories.
  • IMTU the government of each member world - and IMTU the Imperium is made of governments and not citizens - has a unique relationship with the Imperium government, a relationship based on how the world first joined the Imperium and what has occurred across the ensuing centuries.
  • IMTU - Imperial nobles play an important role as living treaties. Their duties and prerogatives in a given territory are closely linked to the duties and prerogatives the Imperium enjoys in the same territory.

Let me repeat one last point. We almost always assume "territorial sovereignty" when we read "nation" or "government". That assumption sits at the core of the problem many people have when attempting to understand the Third Imperium.

That's a very interesting alternate Imperium you have there, Bill. You seem to be placing yourself squarely between two chairs, though. On the one hand you carefully emphasize that you're talking about the Imperium in your TU. On the other hand you speak of people having trouble understanding the Imperium.

I have no trouble understanding an Imperium. It may be an Imperium that you consider bland and unconvincing. It may be an Imperium that is not supported by the existing canon (though I think it is). It may be an Imperium that differs from what you think an ideal (for role-playing purposes) Imperium should be like. It may be an Imperium that is too closely analogous to the modern-day US and EU (Though I don't think it is) for your taste. But I can assure you that I have no trouble understanding it.

Because we too often assume the Imperium is territorial sovereign, we too often craft an Imperium which is nothing more than a 57th Century version of the US or EU.

I think the Imperium is something quite different from the US and the EU (Not a territorially sovereign state, btw.). I think it's an empire of empires. And that these empires (the individual duchies) are not territorially sovereign, being composed of member words and states that are. There are some parallels to the US and to the (18-19th Century) UK, but also far to many differences to make it nothing more than a 57th Century versiun of the US or EU.


Hans
 
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Dragoner already pointed out that there are different types of feudalism and I'll remind everyone that Mr. Miller has stated in the past that he considers the Imperium to be a feudal technocracy.

That's all very well, but what does Marc Miller think of when he thinks of a feudal technocracy?

The term is poorly defined and I find it impossible to figure out what technical services the Imperium provides for its subjects in return for their allegiance. Also, just how do these subjects agree to be ruled by the specific Imperial individuals who govern them?


Hans
 
[*]IMTU and like pre-1789 France, the Imperium is a crazy quilt of different territories knit together by conquest, treaties, colonization, and other methods.

That's more or less how I see the Imperium, except that it started out having more clout vis-a-vis many of its conquests, enabling it to use a standard boilerplate treaty for half of them, and a number of worlds were colonized under its auspices, resulting in the same standard treaty being employed, so it's more of a blanket with a number of patches than a crazy-quilt.

One of the many ideas that I've never found the time to explore is a duchy or an interstellar state smaller than a duchy that is an autonomous district. I think one could justify it by saying that the canonical map only shows those autonomous districts that are larger than a duchy.

[*]IMTU and like Austria in the Netherlands, the Imperium finds itself hamstrung on occasion by all the legalities, precedents, and traditions at work within all it's territories.

That's how I see it too, though we probably disagree on how common that is.

[*]IMTU the government of each member world - and IMTU the Imperium is made of governments and not citizens - has a unique relationship with the Imperium government, a relationship based on how the world first joined the Imperium and what has occurred across the ensuing centuries.

I agree with you 100% on that score.

[*]IMTU - Imperial nobles play an important role as living treaties. Their duties and prerogatives in a given territory are closely linked to the duties and prerogatives the Imperium enjoys in the same territory.

I don't quite understand that notion.


Hans
 
That's all very well, but what does Marc Miller think of when he thinks of a feudal technocracy?

The term is poorly defined and I find it impossible to figure out what technical services the Imperium provides for its subjects in return for their allegiance. Also, just how do these subjects agree to be ruled by the specific Imperial individuals who govern them?


Hans

That was from his planetary governments.
 
That was from his planetary governments.

Indeed it is. It's the only place I've seen the term defined. If the definition does not apply to interstellar governments, we're still left in the dark about what Marc Miller thinks of when he thinks of interstellar governments that are feudal technocracies.


Hans
 
Indeed it is. It's the only place I've seen the term defined. If the definition does not apply to interstellar governments, we're still left in the dark about what Marc Miller thinks of when he thinks of interstellar governments that are feudal technocracies.


Hans

He gave examples, basically it is the Chicago Democratic party/Zaibatsu mixed with Piper's Space Viking.
 
He gave examples, basically it is the Chicago Democratic party/Zaibatsu mixed with Piper's Space Viking.

Tell me more. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the Chicago Democratic party to know how it would work as an interstellar government and I don't see what the planetary governments of Piper's Sword Worlds (presumably a big inspiration for Traveller's feudal technocracy[*]) has to do with interstellar governance.

[*] Though personally I think that what Piper describes is more like plain old-fashioned feudality with emphasis shifted from agriculture to industry.

Hans
 
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Tell me more. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the Chicago Democratic party to know how it would work as an interstellar government and I don't see what the planetary governments of Piper's Sword Worlds (presumably a big inspiration for Traveller's feudal technocracy) has to do with interstellar governance.


Hans

Maybe Keiretsu is a better example of the megacorps.

The names are taken from piper, but the Imperium is in effect a political machine, with the various dukes etc., doing what the ward committeemen, aldermen, precinct captains, etc. do; with the emperor acting like the mayor, specifically Daley I would say. People try to fit British or some other monarchist system within the Imperium becase they see similar names.
 
The Imperium has been labeled a feudal structure, but from the description it's an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings. The dukes function more like governors of European empires than vassals and do not subinfeudate. The lesser nobles of a duchy are appointed by the Emperor and swear allegiance to him, not to the duke. What allegiance they owe to their duke is due to him as the representative of the Emperor, not as an feudal overlord. The duchy is the lowest level of interstellar government, which means that counts and viscounts don't actually rule their counties. Most member worlds are not the Emperor's to hand out ownership of, so marquesses and barons do not rule the worlds that are their so-called fiefs. (Unless they have been made Imperial nobles because they were hereditary rulers of their worlds, but then their rulership derives from wearing a different hat).


Hans
You don't know that, though. The game is designed such that nearly any type of government is possible, but you don't know if that local government is beholden to a higher authority like a noble, Imperial or otherwise.

It may well be that all of the forces in that subsector actually belong to him, and he pays for them through taxes of various sorts. The local planetary government may even be balkanized, but every country on that planet probably owes its allegiance to whatever noble has claim on that planet.

Even on a lesser scale, say a state or a county, a noble may actually rule through some local hereditary custom, and therefore be responsible for fielding a force out of his own pocket which is lined with gold via taxing the locals.
 
Rancke2 said:
The Imperium has been labeled a feudal structure, but from the description it's an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings. The dukes function more like governors of European empires than vassals and do not subinfeudate. The lesser nobles of a duchy are appointed by the Emperor and swear allegiance to him, not to the duke. What allegiance they owe to their duke is due to him as the representative of the Emperor, not as an feudal overlord. The duchy is the lowest level of interstellar government, which means that counts and viscounts don't actually rule their counties. Most member worlds are not the Emperor's to hand out ownership of, so marquesses and barons do not rule the worlds that are their so-called fiefs. (Unless they have been made Imperial nobles because they were hereditary rulers of their worlds, but then their rulership derives from wearing a different hat).
You don't know that, though.

I know that the lowest level of interstellar government is the duchy, because there is a canonical statement to that effect that, AFAIK, is not contradicted by any other canonical statements. I know that most of the worlds are not the Emperor's to hand out rulership of, because there are plenty of examples of worlds that are not ruled in an autocratic fashion. There's even a writeup of a ducal seat (Regina) that is expressly not ruled by the duke. Another ducal seat (Mora) is ruled by the duchess, but wearing another hat, that of Matriarch of Mora. We have many other writeups and in very few of them is the Imperial noble also the ruler (though there are some where they are). Also, the whole concept of the Imperium "ruling the space between the worlds" is, of course, a propaganda statement rather than a legal statement, but it still represents a theme, if you like, that most certainly wouldn't exist if Imperial nobles routinely ruled the worlds they arer associated with.

The game is designed such that nearly any type of government is possible, but you don't know if that local government is beholden to a higher authority like a noble, Imperial or otherwise.

If you mean that I don't know in any specific case of the 10,200 worlds we don't have writeups of, then that's perfectly true. But I do know for certain sure that it's not so in most of the cases we do know about.

It may well be that all of the forces in that subsector actually belong to him, and he pays for them through taxes of various sorts.

We do know that planetary forces belong to the planetary government and not to the duke.

The local planetary government may even be balkanized, but every country on that planet probably owes its allegiance to whatever noble has claim on that planet.

On the contrary, while a setup where that was true is not entirely inconcievable, a balkanized world is unlikely to have any unifying overlord. If it had, it wouldn't be balkanized, it would be an empire.

Even on a lesser scale, say a state or a county, a noble may actually rule through some local hereditary custom, and therefore be responsible for fielding a force out of his own pocket which is lined with gold via taxing the locals.

As I said before, the Emperor has bestowed Imperial titles on some hereditary world rulers (like the Matriarch of Mora) and it's conceivable that he might also have handed out some lesser Imperial titles to hereditary rulers of countries in some cases. But in those cases they rule their worlds (or countries) as local rulers, not as Imperial nobles. Wearing two hats, as it were.


Hans
 
Tell me more. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the Chicago Democratic party to know how it would work as an interstellar government...
Dragoner is referring to this (the political concept) and, more specifically, this.

I'm not sure if American machine politics is that great a match for the Imperium as it currently stands, but the formative years under Cleon I bear a passing resemblance to it to me. Maybe it's the American Midwesterner in me, but I've always kind of pictured Cleon Zhunastu as a Richard J. Daley amped up to the Nth degree.
 
Dragoner is referring to this (the political concept) and, more specifically, this.

I'm not sure if American machine politics is that great a match for the Imperium as it currently stands, but the formative years under Cleon I bear a passing resemblance to it to me. Maybe it's the American Midwesterner in me, but I've always kind of pictured Cleon Zhunastu as a Richard J. Daley amped up to the Nth degree.

There seems to be one crucial aspect missing in the analogy: the voting.


Hans
 
Dragoner is referring to this (the political concept) and, more specifically, this.

I'm not sure if American machine politics is that great a match for the Imperium as it currently stands, but the formative years under Cleon I bear a passing resemblance to it to me. Maybe it's the American Midwesterner in me, but I've always kind of pictured Cleon Zhunastu as a Richard J. Daley amped up to the Nth degree.

Ka ching! Marc and Loren, etc. were actually recreating a political system they knew. Glad to see somebody else understands.
 
Ka ching! Marc and Loren, etc. were actually recreating a political system they knew. Glad to see somebody else understands.

Well, I'm not one of them. I can't reconcile what information we've been told about the Imperium with this political system. Not even the (admittedly scanty) CT evidence and most definitely not what Loren co-wrote about it in GT:Nobles.

Perhaps Marc Miller is planning to retcon the Imperium to resemble the Chicago Machine. That's possible[*]. But I can't see any similarity with the current version.
[*] Though I most definitely hope not.


Hans
 
Well, I'm not one of them. I can't reconcile what information we've been told about the Imperium with this political system. Not even the (admittedly scanty) CT evidence and most definitely not what Loren co-wrote about it in GT:Nobles.

Perhaps Marc Miller is planning to retcon the Imperium to resemble the Chicago Machine. That's possible[*]. But I can't see any similarity with the current version.
[*] Though I most definitely hope not.


Hans


Like what? I see you mention voting, but with the machine, even the dead could vote, so it really isn't that important. It is a patronage system.
 
Rancke2; getting back to the Army issue.

I think you're right in that we simply don't know how the Imperium has the bulk of its official army organized. We know portions of strength; i.e. the Spinward Marches (select worlds), Invasion Earth, some other listings that I'm not aware of. But, other than the specific solar system / world examples, and the occasional large scale "Duke" sector you mentioned, we're not privy to all of the political and military leanings on every world.
 
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