The Imperial Army

[Blue Ghost]

To me the UWP always stuff that was Travel oriented. That is a starship captain needed to know what he could expect at what world that would effect his itinerary. Army and Marine bases tend not to have that kind of impact, ergo the reason they're not listed.

But, that doesn't really explain why they aren't listed in the GM's material. Oversight I'm guessing.

 

[LeperColony]

TNE always assumed there was a regular Imperial Army. The Regency Combat Vehicle Guide has several references to Imperial Army units, occasionally in the context of contrasts with the Marines.

 

[far-trader]

That twigged a memory. Wasn't one of the cover pictures for MT (Rebellion Sourcebook?) described as ...and Imperial Army soldier or some such? I'll have to dig through the books later. I could be mis-recalling

 

[Dragoner]

Here I skimmed through S3 to create a txt document for my own use, assuming Way Stations are "main bases." IMTU the IA maintains a separate replacement army, where the allocation of replacements is taken from, done by the forecasts of attrition and casualities on force disposition. The army itself is a rolling stone, laying in digs at duty stations as well as having a dependent fleet (operated by the navy).


Imperial Army bases, Spinward Marches (Supplement 3)

Mirriam 0303 FS
Flammarion 0110 SW
Efate 0105 Re
Persephone 0608 Lu
Junidy 0802 Ar
Katarulu 0602 TV

lmperial Way Station. A base established for the repair, maintenance, and
overhaul of lmperial equipment. It may include provisions for Army troop
barracks, naval and scout ship overhauls, and intelligence operations.
(pg2)

 

[LeperColony]

To be honest, I don't know why GT: GF felt the need to try and change the IA's structure.

 

[Blue Ghost]

To be honest, I don't know why GT: GF felt the need to try and change the IA's structure.

Speculation; maybe they wanted to show a difference in the GURPS Traveller from regular CT/MT/TME. Possibly make it more dynamic in terms of adventure potential.

A thought occured to me, would not the Army have its own fleet of transports? If the navy is perpetually hauling marines around, then it makes sense that the navy would have its hands full with transports lugging its own troops from A to B.

 

[far-trader]

A thought occured to me, would not the Army have its own fleet of transports? If the navy is perpetually hauling marines around, then it makes sense that the navy would have its hands full with transports lugging its own troops from A to B.

Except that the Army generally stays put (on a planet) and doesn't need (interstellar) transporting.

In times of war I see the Merchant fleets being drafted as auxiliaries to the IN for transport and supply ships. If IA elements needed shifting or evacuation it would fall to the Merchant ships because the IN is full handling it's own troops (Marines) and duties (space battles, not surface battles). In MTU and my opinion of course.

 

[far-trader]

That twigged a memory. Wasn't one of the cover pictures for MT (Rebellion Sourcebook?) described as ...and Imperial Army soldier or some such? I'll have to dig through the books later. I could be mis-recalling

Well, I had the right book, but I can't find a description associated with the art

 

[rancke]

To be honest, I don't know why GT: GF felt the need to try and change the IA's structure.

The author was convinced that his interpretation was borne out by the original source material. He didn't feel he was changing anything; he felt that he was clarifying a murky and ill-defined concept.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

To be honest, I don't know why GT: GF felt the need to try and change the IA's structure.

He didn't understand military organization.

A thought occured to me, would not the Army have its own fleet of transports? If the navy is perpetually hauling marines around, then it makes sense that the navy would have its hands full with transports lugging its own troops from A to B.

Task orientation. It's a fault to compare the 20th and really 19th century structure of the US or UK military to 1000's of years in the future (ever notice that it is the Royal Navy and the British Army?). As the Imperial forces are described, it is a unified military for the most part, though some creeping separation has occured in T5, however, if one was to build a military from scratch, it would probably bear little resemblance to the US military. I use the Soviet army quite a bit, it fits the description and it was built from scratch in the early/mid-20th century.

 

[aramis]

Actually, Doug understood military organization just fine.

He, like many of us, didn't see a standing army separate from the local forces being worth while, since the only way it gets anywhere is via naval transport. It's why many of the smaller island nations' armies are way under sized for their populations, too... they are only useful in a local context.

The UK is interesting as its just shy of being a subcontinent in size; too big for a single nation during its pre-1700 stages, leading to an interesting history of Empire and trying to retain that empire.

Doug's change wasn't to say there was no Army, but to say that it wasn't actually property of the Imperium, and that when the 3I needs troops past the marines, it grabs local units (huscarles, planetary armies, and mercs). And the 3I marines include all branches that the army does, just not in term 1.

There is an interesting sidebar in Spinward Marches Campaign that notes that the 3I marines can be TDY'd into local armies. If there were an Imperial army, it would be more sensible to have the IA do so.

 

[Gray Pennell]

So after 150 or so comments we reach this conclusion in CT/MT/TNE/T4 there is an Imperial Army with a super bad PR department. In GT there isnt one. Issue solved you want an Army dont play GT. Or heck just put an army in GT its your game! If you get it published by GURPS then you changed GT canon and the problem is solved. If you dont publish than it effects no one so no problem. As Bill Murray says in Meatballs "It just dosnt matter, it just dosnt matter it just dosnt matter" I love Gooey Traveller

 

[Dragoner]

It just doesn't work, there are thousands of examples in history.

The germans attacking at dinant, supply and replacements, etc. ad nausem. What happens when Rhylanor says, we aren't sending troops to defend Regina, screw 'em. Why would Reginan's fight to save Efate? What would be done? The Imperial military has no esprit de corps? How would the Zhodani lose? How does the Imperium stay together? These are just off the top of my head.

I just can't believe "Doug" whoever understood how militaries work. There is detailed analysis of why militaries are federalized/nationalized.

 

[aramis]

It just doesn't work, there are thousands of examples in history.

The germans attacking at dinant, supply and replacements, etc. ad nausem. What happens when Rhylanor says, we aren't sending troops to defend Regina, screw 'em. Why would Reginan's fight to save Efate? What would be done? The Imperial military has no esprit de corps? How would the Zhodani lose? How does the Imperium stay together? These are just off the top of my head.

I just can't believe "Doug" whoever understood how militaries work. There is detailed analysis of why militaries are federalized/nationalized.

You're ignoring that the Imperial Marines already have the same types of troops as the army. (See Bk4 and MTPH)

You're also ignoring that there is no way to march across the border.
And bordering on slandering an individual whom, while I disagree with many of his decisions, I do respect. Which is, by the way bordering on infraction territory.

 

[Blue Ghost]

He didn't understand military organization.



Task orientation. It's a fault to compare the 20th and really 19th century structure of the US or UK military to 1000's of years in the future (ever notice that it is the Royal Navy and the British Army?). As the Imperial forces are described, it is a unified military for the most part, though some creeping separation has occured in T5, however, if one was to build a military from scratch, it would probably bear little resemblance to the US military. I use the Soviet army quite a bit, it fits the description and it was built from scratch in the early/mid-20th century.

I guess I think of how the US Army defers a lot of air combat roles to the USAF, but keeps ground support to itself (mostly). That is helo gunships are flown by Army pilots, not Air Force. The Navy has an Army. And the Navy's Army has an Air Force for the same reason. But the Navy's Army relies on the Navy to get around. I'm wondering if perhaps the "real" non-Navy Army would prefer to have its own fleet of transports, rather than rely on merchies to haul them around.

I seem to recall that we used 747s to ferry troops to Iraq for Desert Storm, a "big" conflict that wasn't predicted by the Pentagon. I wonder if perhaps the Imperium might be more prepared with a fleet of transports operated by the Army itself. Nothing fancy, and probably nothing with anything more than rudimentary landing, perhaps assault, capabilities (again, as per a 2nd World War scenario, where the army had its own fleet).

Just my musings here

 

[Blue Ghost]

So after 150 or so comments we reach this conclusion in CT/MT/TNE/T4 there is an Imperial Army with a super bad PR department. In GT there isnt one. Issue solved you want an Army dont play GT. Or heck just put an army in GT its your game! If you get it published by GURPS then you changed GT canon and the problem is solved. If you dont publish than it effects no one so no problem. As Bill Murray says in Meatballs "It just dosnt matter, it just dosnt matter it just dosnt matter" I love Gooey Traveller

What're you trying to say? o:

 

[Blue Ghost]

It just doesn't work, there are thousands of examples in history.

The germans attacking at dinant, supply and replacements, etc. ad nausem. What happens when Rhylanor says, we aren't sending troops to defend Regina, screw 'em. Why would Reginan's fight to save Efate? What would be done? The Imperial military has no esprit de corps? How would the Zhodani lose? How does the Imperium stay together? These are just off the top of my head.

I just can't believe "Doug" whoever understood how militaries work. There is detailed analysis of why militaries are federalized/nationalized.

Dragoner, I think this is what makes for the rich environment that is the 3I. You have these local militaries, then you have the "real" Imperial Army, then you have the IN's marines. Then, on top of that, you might have some high ranking social types with personal militaries, and, on top of that, you have privatized armies under contract to megacorporations.

I think Gray's post pretty much sums it up. However, to me at least, the official canon for CT, upon which much is based, there is an actual army that varies in size and strength according to a world's strategic importance. The books state that the actual Imperial Army, the boys who wear the emperor's sunburst, guard Imperial stuff planetside. But, the local boys who live there have their own units as well.

So, let's say there's some kind of Imperial "thing" on Treece (hex 2311). Let's say that thing is some kind of tunneling experiment on one of the major moons that has some loose military application for the future, whatever it may be (it's not important what it is, just that it's there and needs to be guarded). The Imperium might have a squad of official Imperial Army soldiers with a captain guarding the thing just as a deterrent to anyone interested in trying to nose around whatever it is is all about.

That verse the massive amounts of divisions or pure official Imperial Army groups that are bound to be stationed on Ruby, Mongo, Extolay, Frenzie and the like. And, unless stated in the worlds' or systems' writeups, I would think that there's real official Imperial Army groups (actual armies) in addition to local forces stationed there. GURPS says the locals are suddenly made IA soldiers in times of need. Erm, possibly, but I think more like as we've discussed here that local forces would possibly (though depending on the politics) may fall under Imperial Command.

Again, to me at least, this is the richness of Traveller as it tries to reflect social psychology in a military and adventure like setting. I think to be pragmatic, when and if the Zhos start their bombardment and meteoric assaults, the IA would probably respond, and local forces would probably defer to one unified command; the local high ranking IA officer in charge of all the IA forces on that world. But, it may be that said IA officer would follow the local leadership of whatever government existed. Or, if he's a general, then he might submit himself to take orders from the local forces field marshal.

YTUMV, but I don't think a hard rule is needed, just a good frame work to say the following; "Yes, the Imperial Army exists, and does these things. It's strength can vary based on need, but local forces also take up slack, and/or take precedent depending on local custom and/or its standing within the Imperium." Having said that, I do think the Sylean Federation 3I needs an official Army just to maintain a presence throughout.

 

[McPerth]

What happens when Rhylanor says, we aren't sending troops to defend Regina, screw 'em. Why would Reginan's fight to save Efate?

And what would have happend if France (or Belgium, or Netherlands, or any other NATO country, for what is worth) would have refused to defend Germany in case of a WP attack?

They would have the enemy at their gates instead of at its neighbor's gates, So I guess it's to Regina interest that Efate don't fall, and to Rhylanor's interest that Regina holds, as they are in the enemy's path.

What would be done? The Imperial military has no esprit de corps? How would the Zhodani lose? How does the Imperium stay together? These are just off the top of my head.

The Zhodani lose and the Imperium stays together because the IN is strong, not because the IA is strong.

As much stronger as Zhodani are against Imperial Army, if their fleet loses, they are stranded, either in their side of the border or in the imperial one. The situation would be as the Japanese garrisoning small islands an atolls in WWII when USN achieved naval and air superiority in the zone, they were stranded and useless, they needn't even to have cared for by the USA.

An extreme of this is a planet like Glisten. According to FFW rules, Glisen would have 500 TL 15 battalions (as much as Rhylanor, as both are pop 9, TL 15 and hostile atmosphere), but if naval superiority is achieved in the system, as long as there's a single squadron with beams in the system, Glisten will surround (so, why are those 500 battalions there? Just to make beautiful parades?).

Even so, I believe the Imperial Army exists, both due to canon references and because what I (from my lack of military experience) think is logical, but its main mission is, IMHO, internal defense, instead of external defense (as told, that is carried by the Navy).

The Imperial Army, aside from being a cadre for local armies, gives the Imperium a credible threat of intervention. While the Navy can nuke a planet until it glows or sterilize it (it IIRC has done that in the equatorial region of Ilelish after its rebellion, according to MT history), but cannot occupy it while maintaining it a productive/population center. This needs dirtside work, and I guess not all dirtside troops of the Imperium are the highly trained Marines, as not all need to be.

And for this internal work, the possibility you pointed above about local armies refusing to comply is, IMHO, more real, as they may be the next victims, and because they would have to endure the animosity of this one neighbor, so, it's beter for the Imperium to use own (Imperial) troops, and, as I said, I don't believe all are marines.

 

[Dragoner]

I guess I think of how the US Army defers a lot of air combat roles to the USAF, but keeps ground support to itself (mostly). That is helo gunships are flown by Army pilots, not Air Force. The Navy has an Army. And the Navy's Army has an Air Force for the same reason. But the Navy's Army relies on the Navy to get around. I'm wondering if perhaps the "real" non-Navy Army would prefer to have its own fleet of transports, rather than rely on merchies to haul them around.

I seem to recall that we used 747s to ferry troops to Iraq for Desert Storm, a "big" conflict that wasn't predicted by the Pentagon. I wonder if perhaps the Imperium might be more prepared with a fleet of transports operated by the Army itself. Nothing fancy, and probably nothing with anything more than rudimentary landing, perhaps assault, capabilities (again, as per a 2nd World War scenario, where the army had its own fleet).

Just my musings here

In ww2 there wasn't a separate air force, it was part of the army, same as with the soviets.

If you are just using semantics to rename the army as marines or garfunkles or whatever, you still have a standing army.

Task orientation works like this, where practice follows theory:

Your military must be able to hold ground (army), to hold ground you have to be able to keep the ground holders supplied (navy). So the navy's primary task is to keep the army supplied, if the fails navy do so, it loses it's production centers as it loses ground and ceases to exist. This is why supply is of supreme importance. Battle is secondary to supply in that you can lose a battle and still win if you can keep in supply, you can also win in battle, but lose in supply and still lose (Rommel in the desert is a perfect example of this). Thus the task orientation of forces is army: primary duty is to hold ground, secondary is to conduct offensive operations, however offensive and defensive battle are merely opposite sides of the same coin. For the navy, primary purpose is to supply the army, defend those supply lines and as a tertiary duty to destroy enemy supply lines.

Practice will follow theory, now for the army to maintain it's own supply fleet, it becomes redundant task wise, as now the army is doing the navy's job.

I hope I am clear enough here (who said ROTC never taught me anything?).

 

[Dragoner]

And what would have happend if France (or Belgium, or Netherlands, or any other NATO country, for what is worth) would have refused to defend Germany in case of a WP attack?

Once the full scale nuclear war started it would have been moot, however, remember France did pull out of NATO.

They would have the enemy at their gates instead of at its neighbor's gates, So I guess it's to Regina interest that Efate don't fall, and to Rhylanor's interest that Regina holds, as they are in the enemy's path.

If the end is to be a negotiated peace anyways, why die for it? This happens quite a bit, historically.

The Zhodani lose and the Imperium stays together because the IN is strong, not because the IA is strong.

Incorrect, if there isn't a IA to secure a production base, the IN ceases to exist. The relationship is not either or, they both must work together.

As much stronger as Zhodani are against Imperial Army, if their fleet loses, they are stranded, either in their side of the border or in the imperial one. The situation would be as the Japanese garrisoning small islands an atolls in WWII when USN achieved naval and air superiority in the zone, they were stranded and useless, they needn't even to have cared for by the USA.

If the Zho fleet loses, eventually the army loses as well, same as with the Japanese.

An extreme of this is a planet like Glisten. According to FFW rules, Glisen would have 500 TL 15 battalions (as much as Rhylanor, as both are pop 9, TL 15 and hostile atmosphere), but if naval superiority is achieved in the system, as long as there's a single squadron with beams in the system, Glisten will surround (so, why are those 500 battalions there? Just to make beautiful parades?).

In the long run, Glisten can hold out forever, which the blockading fleet can't, in that way, defender wins ties.

Even so, I believe the Imperial Army exists, both due to canon references and because what I (from my lack of military experience) think is logical, but its main mission is, IMHO, internal defense, instead of external defense (as told, that is carried by the Navy).

This is what I believe as well.

Cheers,
Robert