The Imperial Army

[Ishmael]

Dragoner already pointed out that there are different types of feudalism and I'll remind everyone that Mr. Miller has stated in the past that he considers the Imperium to be a feudal technocracy.

Of course the real trouble is that government labels limited to a single word or phrase are so imprecise. Just mull over how many different kinds of governments can "fit" inside the label of "republic".

I'm afraid that I must disagree with the above statements.There are not different kinds of feudalism and I don't feel 'republic' is a type of government in itself.
Feudalism is simply a kind of government where the instrument of power is the ownership/control of land. That's all it is. It simply tells the reader what the instrument of power, that allows the top person to be the top person, is.
Democracy tells us that the instrument of power is the ownership/control of votes; plutocracy is the ownership/control of wealth, kritocracy is the ownership/control of the legal system (judges), theocracy is the ownership/control of religious dogma, a junta is the ownership/control of the military forces, etc. etc.

A republic is a state where the state affairs are 'public matters' as opposed to 'private matters' of concern to a monarch. Where state affairs are a 'private matter', the leadership is a monarchy. Thus a republic is simply a non-monarchy.
The main feature of monarchies is that political power is transferred via heirs and bloodlines as opposed to a individual citizen's wielding of the government's instruments of power.

The Imperium is NOT feudal, nor is it a technocracy. Political power does not come from the ownership of land and the leaders are not technical experts governing based on scientific method.
The Imperium IS a monarchy and the instrument of power that allows the Imperium to control worlds is the monopoly on interstellar trade and commerce.

I suspect that the original authors used the term Feudal Technocracy to evoke mental images associated with feudalism, such as oath-taking, fealty and the relationships among nobles that many people feel exist. The technocracy part would evoke images of control through technology as opposed to the actual definition of a technocracy.

I am beginning to feel that the Imperium does control technology, or at least technology production and distribution to member worlds. It controls production by imperial nobles' control /influence in the operations of the megacorps and it controls distribution through trade regulations. The Imperium jealously guards its monopoly on trade regulation and is willing, not only to fight wars against member worlds, but has partially sterilized the surfaces of planets as punishment to those who challenge its monopoly. This might very well be an indication that the Third Imperium is actually a hydraulic empire, but controlling trade/commerce instead of controlling water.

I think my original idea's outward appearances remains unchanged in that the Imperial Army is little more than security services for noble's estate and for the many SPA starports in existence. Other than that, the only real role for an army is to occupy territory, so how would that affect troop strengths and deployment considering that member world's territories are already 'occupied' by the member world's armed forces?

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'm afraid that I must disagree with the above statements.There are not different kinds of feudalism and I don't feel 'republic' is a type of government in itself.
Feudalism is simply a kind of government where the instrument of power is the ownership/control of land. That's all it is. It simply tells the reader what the instrument of power, that allows the top person to be the top person, is.
Democracy tells us that the instrument of power is the ownership/control of votes; plutocracy is the ownership/control of wealth, kritocracy is the ownership/control of the legal system (judges), theocracy is the ownership/control of religious dogma, a junta is the ownership/control of the military forces, etc. etc.

A republic is a state where the state affairs are 'public matters' as opposed to 'private matters' of concern to a monarch. Where state affairs are a 'private matter', the leadership is a monarchy. Thus a republic is simply a non-monarchy.
The main feature of monarchies is that political power is transferred via heirs and bloodlines as opposed to a individual citizen's wielding of the government's instruments of power.

The Imperium is NOT feudal, nor is it a technocracy. Political power does not come from the ownership of land and the leaders are not technical experts governing based on scientific method.
The Imperium IS a monarchy and the instrument of power that allows the Imperium to control worlds is the monopoly on interstellar trade and commerce.

I suspect that the original authors used the term Feudal Technocracy to evoke mental images associated with feudalism, such as oath-taking, fealty and the relationships among nobles that many people feel exist. The technocracy part would evoke images of control through technology as opposed to the actual definition of a technocracy.

I am beginning to feel that the Imperium does control technology, or at least technology production and distribution to member worlds. It controls production by imperial nobles' control /influence in the operations of the megacorps and it controls distribution through trade regulations. The Imperium jealously guards its monopoly on trade regulation and is willing, not only to fight wars against member worlds, but has partially sterilized the surfaces of planets as punishment to those who challenge its monopoly. This might very well be an indication that the Third Imperium is actually a hydraulic empire, but controlling trade/commerce instead of controlling water.

I think my original idea's outward appearances remains unchanged in that the Imperial Army is little more than security services for noble's estate and for the many SPA starports in existence. Other than that, the only real role for an army is to occupy territory, so how would that affect troop strengths and deployment considering that member world's territories are already 'occupied' by the member world's armed forces?

Well, I think the Imperial Army is a bit more than that in terms of size, but again it's dependent upon the world's needs, and strategic significance. Worlds near the Vargr Extents and other border regions with potentially hostile (or volatile) neighbors, are the ones that need a military presence. So divisions, battalions and whole armies are the order of the day.

Inside, deep in the Imperium, particularly where things are settled, I'd be surprised if there was anything more than a fireteam on a given world to guard that type D or E starport.

 

[mike wightman]

I'm afraid that I must disagree with the above statements.There are not different kinds of feudalism and I don't feel 'republic' is a type of government in itself.
<snip of interesting stuff>

Your post got me thinking about the Imperium's control of trade and technological development. Then I googled feudalism and stopped at the wikipedia entry.

The classic François-Louis Ganshof version of feudalism describes a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals and fiefs. A lord was in broad terms a noble who held land, a vassal was a person who was granted possession of the land by the lord, and the land was known as a fief. In exchange for the use of the fief and the protection of the lord, the vassal would provide some sort of service to the lord.

Let's take a stab at re-writing for the third Imperium.

The classic Imperial Encyclopedia version of feudalism describes a set of reciprocal legal and economic obligations among the nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals and fiefs. A lord is, in broad terms, a noble who held the technological development, transport and trade oversight rights within a defined volume of space, a vassal is a person who was granted possession of the technological development, transport and trade oversight rights by the lord, and the volume of space is known as a fief. In exchange for the monopoly on the technological development, transport and trade oversight rights and the protection of the lord, the vassal would provide some sort of service to the lord, usually involving tax management and maintenance of the Imperial forces within the fief.

This could take a while...

 

[Carlobrand]

I'm afraid that I must disagree with the above statements.There are not different kinds of feudalism and I don't feel 'republic' is a type of government in itself.
Feudalism is simply a kind of government where the instrument of power is the ownership/control of land. That's all it is. It simply tells the reader what the instrument of power, that allows the top person to be the top person, is.
Democracy tells us that the instrument of power is the ownership/control of votes; plutocracy is the ownership/control of wealth, kritocracy is the ownership/control of the legal system (judges), theocracy is the ownership/control of religious dogma, a junta is the ownership/control of the military forces, etc. etc.

A republic is a state where the state affairs are 'public matters' as opposed to 'private matters' of concern to a monarch. Where state affairs are a 'private matter', the leadership is a monarchy. Thus a republic is simply a non-monarchy.
The main feature of monarchies is that political power is transferred via heirs and bloodlines as opposed to a individual citizen's wielding of the government's instruments of power.

The Imperium is NOT feudal, nor is it a technocracy. Political power does not come from the ownership of land and the leaders are not technical experts governing based on scientific method.
The Imperium IS a monarchy and the instrument of power that allows the Imperium to control worlds is the monopoly on interstellar trade and commerce.

I suspect that the original authors used the term Feudal Technocracy to evoke mental images associated with feudalism, such as oath-taking, fealty and the relationships among nobles that many people feel exist. The technocracy part would evoke images of control through technology as opposed to the actual definition of a technocracy.

I am beginning to feel that the Imperium does control technology, or at least technology production and distribution to member worlds. It controls production by imperial nobles' control /influence in the operations of the megacorps and it controls distribution through trade regulations. The Imperium jealously guards its monopoly on trade regulation and is willing, not only to fight wars against member worlds, but has partially sterilized the surfaces of planets as punishment to those who challenge its monopoly. This might very well be an indication that the Third Imperium is actually a hydraulic empire, but controlling trade/commerce instead of controlling water.

I think my original idea's outward appearances remains unchanged in that the Imperial Army is little more than security services for noble's estate and for the many SPA starports in existence. Other than that, the only real role for an army is to occupy territory, so how would that affect troop strengths and deployment considering that member world's territories are already 'occupied' by the member world's armed forces?

I'd caution against being over-literal in definition. The game defines the phrase "feudal technocracy": "Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial." (Book 6) It's more than a little vague, but there's not a word there about land ownership, so clearly definitions based on patterns of medieval land ownership - however accurate in the modern context - do not apply in the game context.

What we do know is:
1. There is an emperor.
2. Communications are limited to the speed of travel, and the emperor is a very long, long way from the frontiers of his empire.
3. There are lesser nobles who - thanks to the distances involved - enjoy considerable power, who seem to exercise that power in the name of the Emperor and who seem to owe at least their political power to the Emperor, as indicated by that business with the warrant and the Duke of Regina.
4. Despite the distances involved, the Emperor and his distant agents on the scattered frontiers are not above using force to ensure that member planets remain member planets.

What we presume is, based on the game designer's statement that the Imperium he created is a feudal technocracy and on the definition of feudal technocracy in the game, that those nobles granted positions of political power are receiving them at least in part for their skills at managing positions of political power - which is probably half talent at managing the governmental policy-making and implementation apparatus of a star-spanning culture to the benefit of the ruled, and half talent at the game of politics and patronage. Being good at managing a bureaucracy and crafting sound policy is of little value if you anger important people and can no longer get things done as a result, so political skills must be a key component.

Perhaps meritocracy would be a better word than technocracy, but I suspect science and technology in a TL-15 society play a much bigger role in crafting and administering policy that actually works - for a star-spanning government of varied cultures separated by weeks-long communication delays - than they do in the modern era of elections based on popularity and propaganda. Certainly I would expect the sciences of economics, sociology and information-management to have advanced along with the other sciences and to play a big role in managing such a far-flung society, and I have to believe "technical activities" includes the application of scientific knowledge in the crafting of economic and social policy since the top leadership will be spending more time in such activity than in repairing power plants or managing electrical grids.

Sufficient advancement in the psychological and social sciences, coupled with effective intelligence-gathering technology and resources, could even render the ancient art of patronage a pragmatic and carefully calculated outcome-based enterprise. Perhaps one way of looking at Imperial government is through the model of the universe of Dune - carefully calculated alliances based as much on patronage and personal benefit as on fealty, plots-within-plots, brilliant minds drawing on the accumulated knowledge of centuries to manipulate events to favor their lord.

But that's only one way to look at it. The actual details are hotly disputed, and I believe that particular dispute is as old as the game itself. Still, the Emperor is very far away, and when the cat's away ...

 

[Blue Ghost]

Okay, so what have we learned about the Imperial Army?

Anyone?

 

[MCEvans]

Okay, so what have we learned about the Imperial Army?

Anyone?

Depends upon who you ask.
As for me, it is the largest by manpower of the standing Imperial Armed Forces, the least understood and the least covered by PR.
The IA (Imperial Army) is stationed both in and out of the Imperium.
Where the IA is based/stationed is still up in the air. Is it at Starports or Way Stations, both or some other place?
As for movement from base to area of operation the question remains does the IA have its own fleet of transports, does the IN provide the transports or does the IA contract with Merchants?
Personally, the Merchants don't have the ability to move an entire Field Army in one shot so, an Assault Carrier Squadron (which can move an entire Field Army in one shot) is an IA or an IN asset and I'm leaning toward an IN asset.

Any other comments?

 

[aramis]

Okay, so what have we learned about the Imperial Army?

Anyone?

Book 4:

• There is something referred to as the IA.
• It uses a unified rank structure shared with the IM.
• It has 4 of the 5 arms the same as the Marines, but in different proportions:
• Army-Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery, Support, and Commando. It lacks the Marine-Infantry arm.
• It shares most of the training standards with the IM
• Officers have more in-service career mobility than Enlisted/NCO's
• Mercenaries are common.

SMC:

• Marines can be loaned to IA units
• Huscarles are Army Units and often have marines assigned

Defense of the frontier is mostly provided by local indigenous forces, stiffened by scattered lmperial naval bases manned by small but extremely sophisticated forces.

The armed forces of major worlds in Traveller are divided into three major branches: The Navy, Marines, and Army. Mercenaries will generally be from either the Marines or Army. The Army is divided into three major force commands: Close Orbit and Airspace Control Command, Nautical Force Command (the wet navy) and Ground Force Command. Only the last of these three will be considered in this book.

This implies but does not state that the armies are local troops, and marines can be Imperial troops.

Couple that with the references to the Codominion and its Marines in S4 (Hero and Villain #3 is Falconberg's Legion's SgM)... a setting where there is no "Standing Army" - but there is a standing Marine Corps, and a Navy... and dozens of ex-marine trained local armies, plus mercenaries galore... It's entirely possible that the 3I could follow the Codominion model, with the marines being a fully capable force that happens to be the spearhead, and when needed, is augmented by locals from member worlds'/nations' armies.

 

[mike wightman]

So why have an Imperial Army uniform and Imperial Army Intelligence?

Not to mention Imperial Army aides? Oh, and the little matter of named Imperial Army units.

If there is no Imperial Army that is.

 

[aramis]

So why have an Imperial Army uniform and Imperial Army Intelligence?

Not to mention Imperial Army aides? Oh, and the little matter of named Imperial Army units.

If there is no Imperial Army that is.

Citations for their existence outside the GTU?

 

[mike wightman]

76 patrons, Argon Gambit, Tarsus, Beltstrike, TAS news bulletins in JTAS.

 

[rancke]

Citations for their existence outside the GTU?

"Over the centuries, the IISS became a major service of the Imperium, equal in stature to the navy and the army." [Best of JTAS 5-8, p. 13]​

The corollary is that the army is a major service of the Imperium, equal in stature to the navy and the scouts.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

Citations for their existence outside the GTU?

If I recall correctly (my Traveller collection is unavailable at the moment), the Regency Combat Vehicle Guide has several IA references in its various vehicle entries. Usually they are in the general tenor of differences between Army and Marine versions.

 

[aramis]

If I recall correctly (my Traveller collection is unavailable at the moment), the Regency Combat Vehicle Guide has several IA references in its various vehicle entries. Usually they are in the general tenor of differences between Army and Marine versions.

RegCVG has a 70 year lag and a noted centralization move established as canon in other TNE line products - I'd not accept it as evidence of a Classic era standing unified army. No more so than GTIW is, or even M0.

 

[rancke]

RegCVG has a 70 year lag and a noted centralization move established as canon in other TNE line products - I'd not accept it as evidence of a Classic era standing unified army. No more so than GTIW is, or even M0.

I'd have to see the specific quotes to know, but there is at least a possibility that it would count. Unlike IW and M0, TNE lies a century later than the Classic Era, so the information may be historical data. Or it could be inaccurate historical data or current (Regency) data and prove nothing whatsoever.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Depends upon who you ask.
As for me, it is the largest by manpower of the standing Imperial Armed Forces, the least understood and the least covered by PR.
The IA (Imperial Army) is stationed both in and out of the Imperium.
Where the IA is based/stationed is still up in the air. Is it at Starports or Way Stations, both or some other place?
As for movement from base to area of operation the question remains does the IA have its own fleet of transports, does the IN provide the transports or does the IA contract with Merchants?
Personally, the Merchants don't have the ability to move an entire Field Army in one shot so, an Assault Carrier Squadron (which can move an entire Field Army in one shot) is an IA or an IN asset and I'm leaning toward an IN asset.

Any other comments?

Spinward Marches says it's way stations, though those would most likely be major bases with smaller installations around. The navy would most likely move large army elements with it, they just aren't combat assets.

The question of power projection outside the Imperium is fairly interesting.

 

[Blue Ghost]

What I learned is that there are a lot of variations on people's Traveller universes. There seems to be schism in the "official canon" of Traveller-ness, in that GURPS Traveller says there is no real Imperial Army as such, so much as planetary forces that are then incorporated into Army units sporting the Emperor's sunburst. All the while Classic Traveller, the LBB version that I still have in my closet, as well as MT, state, infer and otherwise imply that there's a real Imperial Army, but doesn't elaborate on it too much in terms of force breakdown detail, nor command structure.

Ultimately it's up to the Ref to say what's what. Every iteration of the rules seems to be ambiguous enough where you can interpret the force structure for the IA as you see fit, or whatever's most fun

I always imagine that with any science fiction setting, whether it's Traveller, Brave New World, The Time Machine, War of the Worlds, Star Trek, or Star Wars, that there's a lot of play room for really interesting things that we don't see or hear about. With Traveller it's more less a case of making the game your own, and creating stuff that your group of friends will enjoy.

The Imperial Army, to me at least, seems to be a real official organization. How it exists I think is up to what the gaming situation dictates. If you're on a sparsely populated world in The Beyond, far from anyone's reach, but come across an expeditionary force (more likely marines than army, but say it's army for argument sake), then it'll probably be a good sized force. Perhaps a division or battalion. If you're in some highly populated world deep in the Imperium, then there's probably 50 recruiters scattered over the planet you're on Maybe a dozen or two guarding some local nobles palace (assuming the're not his huscarles, see my Noble Military thread). Other places? YMMV.

I started this thread because I thought it was the one service that had never really been addressed. Everything in the rules seemed to say "Hey, there's the army. Sign up for it if you can't get into the other services." I think there was a sort of implicit understanding that there had to be an army, I mean, every country since caveman times had an army or sorts. Why would the Imperium be any different?

But, like someone here said, it could be that the real Official Imperial Army is the most massive of the armed forces, but it could be that they're so low profile that nobody really notices them. And, as per that poster's suggestion, it could be they like it that way

Regardless, somewhere, there's some grunt who's not in the marines, who wears either battledress or combat armor, and totes a high energy weapon or a high powered percussion rifle that can punch through personal armor. He's an E1, salutes, says "yes sir" and "no sir", has the Imperial Sunburst on his shoulder or breast plate, shaves his head, and sleeps in a bunk. I wonder what service he's part of :smirk:

 

[aramis]

Regardless, somewhere, there's some grunt who's not in the marines, who wears either battledress or combat armor, and totes a high energy weapon or a high powered percussion rifle that can punch through personal armor. He's an E1, salutes, says "yes sir" and "no sir", has the Imperial Sunburst on his shoulder or breast plate, shaves his head, and sleeps in a bunk. I wonder what service he's part of :smirk:

The Duke of Regina's Huscarles...:devil:

 

[Orr]

76 patrons, Argon Gambit, Tarsus, Beltstrike, TAS news bulletins in JTAS.

Don't the players in Signal GK work for Army intelligence?

 

[MCEvans]

Don't the players in Signal GK work for Army intelligence?

No, but there patron is Col Sanchex head of IA Intelligence on Scandia and oversees a network spanning 2 subsectors (A13 pg8)

 

[Blue Ghost]

No, but there patron is Col Sanchex head of IA Intelligence on Scandia and oversees a network spanning 2 subsectors (A13 pg8)

Isn't that working for Army Intelligence?