• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

The Imperial Army

Oops, sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was that the Navy has an Army, the Marines. Navies of old at one time deployed sailors as soldiers. Even after navies became modernized sailors still had the auxiliary function of soldier. But it became more efficient and effective for the Navy to create and keep its own army; the marines, who rely on the navy to get around from A to B, and serve as shock troops and security.

For the Army, the real Army, wouldn't it be more effective for them to have their own support fleet so they wouldn't be left high and dry when some admiral moved his fleet to engage ships elsewhere?
 
I don't see why, not with a properly unified military system. That is why I say to get away from 20th century military thought. Go from theory and build from the ground up. No need for navy armies or army navies, it is a waste of effort.
 
Ah, but the navy has the marines. That's the navy's army. :)

I think the actual army needs a transport fleet of sorts for practicality. Imagine there's a scuffle on some world near Aslan space. The IN is off engaging an avante garde of some Aslan(ian) settler fleet with mercenary escort. There's a huge Imperial Army a jump or two over that's essentially stuck in the mud until the Navy comes back.

That army can either contract out merchants to haul its boys over to that world, or call upon its own fleet of transports.
 
Ah, but the navy has the marines. That's the navy's army. :)

I think the actual army needs a transport fleet of sorts for practicality. Imagine there's a scuffle on some world near Aslan space. The IN is off engaging an avante garde of some Aslan(ian) settler fleet with mercenary escort. There's a huge Imperial Army a jump or two over that's essentially stuck in the mud until the Navy comes back.

That army can either contract out merchants to haul its boys over to that world, or call upon its own fleet of transports.

...or marines are just army troops detailed to serve on navy ships, same as the navy would detail ships to move the army. Total disorganization means it's all done for anyways.

edit:

though to add to the scenario, what happens if it is just a feint and once the army troops in merchants gets wiped out by the aslan?

naasirka valet bot: "admiral, the emperor sends his compliments." opens a serving dish with the only contents are a bullet.
 
Last edited:
To use a 21st Century US Military example
USTRANSCOM - US Transport Command
a unified (Army, Navy and Air Force) command that gets US military (manly Army) assets any were in the world and the means to support them in all logistical ways.

In Traveller (or at least IMTU) the Navy provides transport and a High Guard, the Army controls the surface. The Marines, ship security, boarding parties, sugical strike/commando operations and assists the Army in creating 'beachheads' on planet (help securing the starport).

As for PR as I said earlier 'The least covered and they like it that way'
 
In ww2 there wasn't a separate air force, it was part of the army, same as with the soviets.

Not exactly true. During WWII, the AAF was answerable to Department of the Army, Secretary of the Army, and the JCS, but not to Army Ground Forces command.

The United States Army is not a unified service from shortly after WW I until during or after Korea. It was 3 fully autonomous services from 1943, each answering to Dept of the Army and the JCS as separate services. These were the Army Ground Forces, the Army Air Forces and the Army Service Force (The Supply service). In many ways, the relationship of the AGF, ASF, and AAF was similar to that of the marines and navy; separate basic, separate training, separate uniform standards, and separate promotions. And in the case of the AAF, a separate warrant title: Flight Officer. Note that Flight Officers in the AAF promoted not to W2, but to O1... unlike AGF and ASF warrants. The ASF got rolled back into the AGF eventually, but the AAF became the USAF.
 
Ah, but the navy has the marines. That's the navy's army. :)

I think the actual army needs a transport fleet of sorts for practicality. Imagine there's a scuffle on some world near Aslan space. The IN is off engaging an avante garde of some Aslan(ian) settler fleet with mercenary escort. There's a huge Imperial Army a jump or two over that's essentially stuck in the mud until the Navy comes back.

That army can either contract out merchants to haul its boys over to that world, or call upon its own fleet of transports.

I don't want to even begin to think of an Army transport fleet flying without support - even if only a few escorts. The potential for disaster there is rather frightening. Then you start figuring the need for crew with ship-skills for your transports and their escorts, the need for maintenance facilities, and so forth, you're probably better off letting the Navy manage it then trying to set up a duplicate infrastructure to serve Army's ships.
 
I don't want to even begin to think of an Army transport fleet flying without support - even if only a few escorts. The potential for disaster there is rather frightening. Then you start figuring the need for crew with ship-skills for your transports and their escorts, the need for maintenance facilities, and so forth, you're probably better off letting the Navy manage it then trying to set up a duplicate infrastructure to serve Army's ships.

That's why in MTU it's the Merchant Marine, a ready Imperial service fleet with the capacity, crew, and support at no expense during peacetime since it's commercial. And yes those big ships and subsidized ships are gunned, and often even have their own escorts per SMC and Al Morai as an example. And of course they may well have some IN assets along too for more guns. But the IN will not be landing the bulk of troops or leave their Marines sticking around on the ground for long.
 
Yeah, for the US at least it was the merchant marine for the longest time. It may still be in some instances, I don't really know.

The US Army has boats for stuff, but certainly not huge combat vessels. That's the navy's purview.

But yeah, it could be a potential for disaster on a number of levels. On a strategic level it might be a feint, and the emperor's "gift" might be seen as an honorable way out. On a tactical level it could be a trap, where the transport fleet in question jumps only to find a fleet of hostile ships waiting for it.

It's not like it's not without risks, but the navy is, well, the navy. :D The army, being the silent partner in the scheme of things may want a bit of autonomy and independence from the navy. ;)

As for the internal security thing; I think that's true, but like the army itself, the importance varies from world to world. Some worlds may have lots of social strife requiring an armed presence. Other worlds wouldn't require one single uniformed security person.

I think the Spinward Marches and the Solomani sphere of influence, it's a given that there's massive army groups on numerous worlds. Near Hiver space, probably some, but not as much. K'Kree space? It's your call. And so on and so on.

*EDIT*
I just discovered that today's US Army has it's own fleet of transport vessels. So it is doable and practical. How much we can template that for the Imperium is anyone's guess.
 
Last edited:
Ok the USA military relies on the Sea Lift command to get the army where it needs to go when deploying in mass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Sealift_Command

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Transportation_Command

The time it takes to active and then transport the army in Gulf War I is one of the reasons why the USA began a shift to lighter quick reactionary force and special forces that could rely on the permeant airlift command and the marines. By the invasion of Afganistan the plans where in full swing. Gulf War II was originally planned to use lighter forces but the plan changed and we got the war we got. Since than both Rumsfeld and Panetta have tried to create this small quick and deadly force.

That being said I believe the Imperial Army has to relie on something like a Space Lift Command that moves it around. It is highly unlikely the Imperial navy would not support such moves. It would not be in their best interest.

This is not to say their is no innerservice rivalry. These rivalries would more likely appear during "peace time" as they bid for budgetary support. I can see the army creating "The quick reaction supply system" which would be an xboat like force that would move the army around but ran by the army. They would sight the Scout Services independence in both ships and the Xboat route. But when the 5FW hits they would pull together to get the job done or else fail.
 
That's predominantly for the navy though, though the article says it's for all services. The US Army actually has its own fleet. Check them out.
 
Going all the way back to yesterday...

WRT using the careers as guides to the existence of services...

this is one of the core six services, with "Other" described in the rules as ""undefined" but Army getting the same level of treatment as the other four defined services in both pre and post OTU editions of the CT core rules. Dismissing it alongside Police and Barbarian is being overly dismissive (and patronizing, to my reading, though I'll try to excuse that to keeping up with all the posts in this wildfire thread.)

I read "planetary" in the description of the Army service as a description of theater of operations, not as a description of command and control authority.

And looking for definition of the service's nature in the service's tables seems like a pretty obvious approach to me.

Anyway, this is starting to feel like a piracy discussion, so I'll just check out now.
 
Pirates. Pirates! Pirates! Pirates! :D

How does the Imperial Army handle pirates ;)

Seriously, to the best of my knowledge this is the first thread directly addressing the actual Imperial Army. The boys in green who sit on planets, and don't ride around in fancy navy ships wearing chameleon BD and tote FGMPs on a regular basis.

With marines, I always figured they were essentially ships' troops regardless of where they were. Oh sure, they did things the army did, but their strength, that is in terms of sheer numbers, was probably only a fraction of the Imperium's less visible arm. ;)
 
But yeah, it could be a potential for disaster on a number of levels. On a strategic level it might be a feint, and the emperor's "gift" might be seen as an honorable way out. On a tactical level it could be a trap, where the transport fleet in question jumps only to find a fleet of hostile ships waiting for it.

Exactly, that is why the fleet would move army elements with it, losing them could mean losing a bunch of worlds, if you lost a few million troops in transit. The navy can't support itself, if it loses it's bases, it must withdraw.

IMO, the mechant marine is activated second tier, to provide excess capacity in time of emergency.
 
That's predominantly for the navy though, though the article says it's for all services. The US Army actually has its own fleet. Check them out.

Please give link, because Military Sealift Command (Navy) is part of US Transport Command.
Now the Army did have ships until the the end of WW II and during WW II they were being put under Navy control, by the time of Korea the Army had few if any ships under its control with all water borne movement put under Naval control.
 
Back to the topic rather than real world military - more evidence unearthed for the existence of an Imperial Army.

In the boxed adventures Tarsus and Beltstrike there are character cards with a brief history for each character.

In each adventure there is an ex-Imperial Army character who served as an IN Admiral's aide during the FFW.
 
I think the evidence for a regular Imperial Army from CT/MT/TNE is pretty solid, even if its size, role, and organization is a little unclear. GT seems to represent a pretty substantial departure that I don't particularly care for, but that other people seem to feel is a reasonable solution.
 
I'd guess that it all depends on how the Imperium's government actually works, as well.
I mean, we've been told that it is a form of feudalism, but I'm not so sure.
Feudalism is a system for structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labor. But what land do the Imperial nobles hold and control? entire member worlds?
That'd make ALL member worlds to be gov-6, except they are not. Else nobles are representatives of the Emperor, whereupon they would be assigned to a member world in a manner similar to diplomats, but with some level of governing power.

In the first case, their troops would be the world's troops which could be ordered to fight for whatever cause the noble wishes, which would naturally be whatever cause the noble's lord wishes.
In the second case, the noble's troops would be ceremonial and/or security for the noble and his assigned estate.

Besides,
Feudalism traditionally emerges as a result of the decentralization of an empire. This was particularly the case within the Japanese and Carolingian (European) empires which both lacked the bureaucratic infrastructure necessary to support cavalry without the ability to allocate land to these mounted troops. Mounted soldiers began to secure a system of hereditary rule over their allocated land and their power over the territory came to encompass the social, political, judicial, and economic spheres as well.

These acquired powers significantly reduced the presence of centralized power in these empires. Only when the infrastructure existed to maintain centralized power—as with the European monarchies—did Feudalism begin to yield to this new organized power and eventually disappear.
I'm sure the 'centralized power/Emperor/Moot' would not like that!
I'm certain the X-boat network was an attempt to provide an infrastructure to exercise centralized power, but it was also too slow to do so effectively over such long distances. I'd be willing to argue that this decentralization of the empire precipitated the total breakup during the Rebellion along domain borders resulting is numerous smaller 'empires' that fought each other.

I prefer the second proposal, myself.
The closest real-world analog to this that I can think of is the manner in which the Catholic Church held power during the late medieval through the renaissance.
Thus, IMTU....
The nobles would act in roles similar to the Cardinals and Bishops with other representatives scattered throughout the member worlds and would hold a great deal of influence over the nominally independent governments of the member worlds without being directly involved in governing. They would answer to their central leader, the Emperor, and would pass information on to the member world's leaders including diplomatic pressure over a wide range of issues.
They would appeal to the common populations and engage in cultural imperialism, etc, etc.
The noble estate would be handled much as the Vatican with the lands being officially Imperial property outside the jurisdiction of the member world's forces/police. Attacks upon such an estate is considered as attacks directly against the Imperium.

So, to me, the noble's forces would be the 'imperial army', which would be ceremonial/security troops similar to the Vatican's Swiss Guard, and not some huge multi-division army complete with armor, et al.
 
5. Feudal Technocracy1. Ruling functions are performed by specific individuals for persons who agree to be
ruled by them. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial.
The lower levels of government (all the way to the citizens themselves) support the upper levels of government for
as long as the general system provides a living for all2. Examples: Japan (in that companies tend to hire employees
for life, and strong loyalties are formed), and the United States (in that some populations have strong party
loyalty in return for local assistance by the party in the form of jobs and handouts).


1 Feudal Technocracy was the dominant government form in H. Beam Piper’s Space Viking. Organized in a system of
kingdoms, duchies, and other small states, ruled by (frequently-warring) noblemen. Despite (or perhaps because of) the
political instability, the government to achieves/retains a relatively high level of technology. Notice that it parallels
Balkanization, but acknowledges some form of central authority.
2 I would call the structure of the Imperium a Feudal Technocracy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
apocrypha 2 disk


It's not exactly feudalism
 
Back
Top