The Imperial Army

[Enoki]

the correspondence, while striking at first glance, fails when jump is considered. the only way to cut off any individual system is either 1) to station an interdiction force on top of it, or 2) to capture and deny transit in any system within jump range of the system in question. 1 is a siege operation requiring significant forces, and 2 seems impossible in most circumstances - attempting to deny transit in such a large area will result in critically over-extended naval forces subject to defeat in detail in any location. a system cannot be "isolated" without strenuous effort and resource allocations.

Actually it doesn't. Look again to the Pacific War. Using the Imperium as the attacker, they simply move a fleet into several systems for the purposes of eradicating jump capable and space capable forces. That is in essence, they "sink" the enemy's navy. They do this to a range of systems around the invasion target leaving the enemy no means to reinforce the target system for say, several weeks at a minimum.
That is exactly what the USN did in the Pacific. They literally swept the Central Pacific of all IJN ships before invading the various island atoll groups. That left each on its own.

Denial of transit is done simply by eliminating the enemy's fleet(s) out to say 8 to 12 parsecs from the target. Now they are looking at several jumps just to reassemble forces in the target area.
The invasion fleet the Imperium uses doesn't need offensively capable space ships once that happens. The invasion fleet needs escorts to protect against remaining defense boats and bombardment vessels like monitors to obliterate planetary defenses.

The strategy here is that you are invading one system, but to do so you need to eliminate the enemy's space power sufficiently in adjoining systems to prevent them from intervening. It's basic Mahanian strategy straight out of the late 19th Century.

So, you end up having a great space battle or three and if you win, you can invade. If you lose, you set up for round two. You fight Jutland, or the Philippine Sea. Win you can make an amphibious invasion, lose and you can't. You can go back to the Punic wars if you want. Same thing. Rome built three completely new fleets to defeat the Carthaginians. Once they won at sea, they could invade Carthage and defeat them on land.

The planetary defenses would best be modelled on the late 19th Century US ones of the Third system Endicott forts, combined with strong coastal naval units. That is, the planetary weapons are as big as they come and can take on any starship. There are enough to make sure you are going to make the attacking fleet hurt, and hurt bad. The shields and protection systems are such that it's going to take a considerable effort to take any of this out.
If your relief fleet can arrive in time it might disrupt the whole operation. If not, the defenses are sufficient that when the system falls the attacker will need to spend several months repairing their damaged ships and waiting for replacements for the ones lost.

 

[kilemall]

I studied this extensively. unless one posits nearly unlimited shipyard capacity, or posits ideal force compositions in defiance of any construction logistics, it can't be done. construction of combat forces sufficient for some guarantee of naval victory displaces construction of most support ships. imtu support ships are built mostly by porozlo (tech 10) and junidy (tech 9), but all other yards are devoted to combatants. at this spinward-marches ratio of combatants to support it's possible to supply some significant offensive task forces, but not generally, and certainly not enough to transport any full-scale army.

Or.

The Merchant Marine really IS a service, and all those subsidized merchants are 'Imperiliazed'.

That's 30-40 years worth of private ship production partially financed off private enterprise, stretching the Imp credit.

Plus wartime mandatory contracts for private shippers, no doubt at several times the normal rates, the functional logistical allegory to merc units.

 

[flykiller]

I am saying that Iwo Jima type delays can be valuable, again reference Alamo in conjunction with cutoff of Mexican seaborne supplies yielding San Jacinto, and relatively cheap buying time compared to fleets and above all their multi-year construction time.

well, a serious army, especially a high-tech one, will require decades of personnel development and experience to be effective. you can't just stick guys in battledress and hand them an fgmp-15 and say, "there the enemy, go get 'em."

and while such an action may be proper tactics in a cardboard-counter game, real men on being told their primary purpose is to sacrifice themselves in the name of cost efficiency may decide they don't want to fight for the imperium at all.

 

[flykiller]

transporting and landing any army offensively in the face of significant naval opposition would be costly to the point of irrelevance.

None of that argues against what I am postulating the nature of the bulk of the Imperial Army is, back at the Core Worlds, and why we wouldn't see it in full force at the frontiers except in emergencies.

don't see how transporting an army from core is any easier than transporting an army within the involved sector.

 

[flykiller]

That is in essence, they "sink" the enemy's navy.

well, that's destroying the enemy's navy. of course you can do whatever you want then. which is my point - naval action results determine ground action results. but if there is a functioning opposition fleet then systems cannot be "cut off" except by close siege or area-denial to an impossible extent.

 

[kilemall]

well, a serious army, especially a high-tech one, will require decades of personnel development and experience to be effective. you can't just stick guys in battledress and hand them an fgmp-15 and say, "there the enemy, go get 'em."

and while such an action may be proper tactics in a cardboard-counter game, real men on being told their primary purpose is to sacrifice themselves in the name of cost efficiency may decide they don't want to fight for the imperium at all.

I am presuming a standup analogous to the two year US division, more complex skill sets and learning curves but better educational tech and understanding to mitigate.

That's creating a Regular unit by Striker standards, skill level 2 and reasonable morale.

The fleets will take longer, in excess of 3 years or more for larger vessels as per TCS. One would presume the crew is training up at the same time the ship is being built.

Plenty of people from all manner of nations and polities have done exactly that, been a forlorn hope buying time and knew it, others surrendering before that point, still others waiting too long to do so and being given no quarter as punishment for costing time.

I suppose it would be a referee decision as to whether the Imperium or any other government enjoys the support of troops willing to sacrifice for it.

 

[flykiller]

The Merchant Marine really IS a service, and all those subsidized merchants are 'Imperiliazed'.

now this is entirely possible, and imtu the imperium owns all jump-capable ships and may task them at any time. but I'm not sure a large scale mobilization would be worthwhile. variations in jump capacity, variations in cargo capacity, crew behavior, maintenance supply issues, refitting to carry troops (in lowberth or out), etc, may make such an effort quite costly in terms of time and loss. I imagine such an effort would be confined to very large merchant ships purpose built for the task and then leased out to ex-military for subsidized fixed runs, subject to recall. would provide a good reason for merchant training and merchant gunnery crewmen.

 

[flykiller]

I am presuming a standup analogous to the two year US division, more complex skill sets and learning curves but better educational tech and understanding to mitigate.

... dunno. suppose you could just posit "education tech" and call it good. but I can't see it. tech 7 is one thing, tech 13 probably is a whole 'nuther issue. and strategic capability and tactical skill and nco leadership simply take time, no way around it. sure, you can build a formation and teach it to march (in nice even regular columns) and teach it to push buttons - but you just up and stick them in combat and things will go hinky fast.

Plenty of people from all manner of nations and polities have done exactly that, been a forlorn hope buying time and knew it

oh yeah, definitely, people have found themselves in such situations and carried on the best they could. but to be formed up for such a purpose from the beginning ... no, not even the japanese did that.

 

[kilemall]

don't see how transporting an army from core is any easier than transporting an army within the involved sector.

It isn't, but I don't see that you fly a whole Imperial Sector Army from Core to the frontiers.

More like part of the Core Army is moved to the sector next door while that Army moves up one, the sector next door moves up it's Army to the trouble sector, etc. all at the same time.

Again, time management. That naval supremacy can be fleeting (pun unintended) as the enemy chooses to commit more then expected from their core, or built a new fleet from shipyard capacity not properly recognized, or being given time because the Imperium is following your dictates and raising a local force, losing two years to that effort or risking deploying militia/recruit level forces.

If a polity is to be seizing space Iwo Jimas, it's got to do it while the doing is good. Better fighting on their ground then yours. Think Interstellar Nth war from the Imperium game and negotiating the new border from the reality on the ground.

 

[kilemall]

... dunno. suppose you could just posit "education tech" and call it good. but I can't see it. tech 7 is one thing, tech 13 probably is a whole 'nuther issue. and strategic capability and tactical skill and nco leadership simply take time, no way around it. sure, you can build a formation and teach it to march (in nice even regular columns) and teach it to push buttons - but you just up and stick them in combat and things will go hinky fast.

Sure, which is why two years, not six months as some postulate.

The tech increases, the human animal remains the same.

oh yeah, definitely, people have found themselves in such situations and carried on the best they could. but to be formed up for such a purpose from the beginning ... no, not even the japanese did that.

My friends in the 1980s 82nd Airborne were told their WWIII mission would be to drop in blocking positions against incoming Soviet hordes and buy a few days time. And to expect 80% losses within 5 days.

Another of my friends trained up for the FO forward recon position, similar chances for death in a shorter time frame.

So. Ya.

 

[flykiller]

heh. lots of assertions in this thread. need to game this out, see what happens.

 

[Quint]

I think I've said it before/elsewhere but part of the problem with this discussion is that what the Imperial Army (however it is comprised) is seen as fighting (and "trains for") - Fulda Gap, the Somme (and the rest of World War I), Normandy (and the rest of World War II), the Punic Wars, and Gettysburg (and the rest of the Civil War). Arguably, it is also seen as a conquering colonial power.

What they are actually fighting (per the breakdown of assignments in Book 4) is Vietnam, Malaya, the Philippines, Chechnya, Afghanistan (Colonial, Soviet, and the Coalition), Ireland/Northern Ireland, West Africa, and the Peninsular and Indian Wars.

Heck, there isn't even an assignment that really approximates WW1, WW2, etc. models.

I would posit that the Imperial Army isn't designed for conquering planets, or even for holding planets that much, it's designed to engage in Police Actions, Counter-Insurgency, and Internal Security (and mostly Garrison and Training assignments). Even the Imperial Marines do the same things, in basically the same proportions.

The FFW is an anomaly in the day-to-day combat missions of the Imperial Military - certainly planned for, certainly feared, but it isn't the bread-and-butter of what the Army (or the Marines) do.

D.

 

[Enoki]

heh. lots of assertions in this thread. need to game this out, see what happens.

Exactly. If it were me I'd start by a scenario similar to one where Japan invades Hawaii on 7 Dec.

Imagine the Traveller version. You have a star system with several worlds (each is like an island of the Hawaiian chain). The main world (Oahu) is heavily defended. It has planetary defenses that can smash any attacking starship that tries to fire on the planet (the coast defenses). There are lots of defending troops. There is a large fleet of space capable ships present.
Taking the other worlds buys you little as I own the only one that's really habitable and has infrastructure on it. I also can reinforce that world in the coming weeks if you fail to take it.
So, invasion or costly siege are your choices.

The attacker destroys most of the defense's heavy starships, and has some advantage against what's left.

(Ignore the rest of the opening of the Pacific War for this scenario, just concentrate on the Hawaii part).

To land you need to suppress or destroy the planetary defenses otherwise your invasion gets smashed. You have limited ammunition available on your ships to do this. You also need to save some munitions in case the cavalry shows up to fight (more enemy starships).

How long will the invasion take? How many troops do you need to land to succeed? What kind of losses might you expect?

As a counter type wargame this would be the sort of thing I'd put in place as a player. I'd want very heavy defensive weapons on as many planets and satellites in the system as I could muster the cash for. They'd be so heavily armored and shielded that a starship couldn't penetrate them to take out the weapons mounted without repeated direct hits. This is against the defenses being able to smash up almost any space ship on the first hit.

The ground forces would be organized primarily for defense. They'd have lots of stuff to produce massive casualties among the attackers, be fortified to make taking them out hard, and there'd be lots and lots of passive defenses like mines, obstacles, and other such stuff.

I'd make sure to have a means to prevent the "rod from god" or asteroid bombardment too.

As the attacker, I'd be looking for your navy and wanting to engage it in a favorable battle and "sink" most of it. That eliminates you counterattacking me once I arrive to invade. I'd do that before committing anything to an amphibious assault.

Now, there is the "Guadalcanal" scenario (there are others from throughout history of similar nature). That is, you have deemed a system valuable enough to move in and begin building a base to further expand your military operations off of. I counter by showing up unexpectedly and landing a huge force taking the planet from you. I have sufficient on the planet to make it hard or impossible to take back without committing exhorbant amounts of forces to do. I also have committed naval forces to support the operation and am willing to go toe to toe with your own forces over the system.
How much attrition are you willing to take over the system?

Think it through for a moment. Isn't that what you'd do in a wargame based on Traveller?

 

[atpollard]

What happens if a TL 12 industrial world gets TL 14 terrorist actions against the Starport and Startown? The local forces are being outclassed by imported mercenaries and Interstellar Trade is threatened.

Any target the Navy could attack, would probably generate civilian casualties and support for the enemy. You are looking for hundreds of people on the ground among tens of billions.

How long are you going to deploy a Warship in orbit to support Marines on the ground? If you have Marines fighting deep 'inland' for extended durations with no connection to the Navy ... then isn't that an Imperial Army?

 

[Condottiere]

Forty Kay covers this territory quite well, as long as you ignore the bad fiction.

You first have to establish the logistics infrastructure to support your military, unless you happen to be non human, in which case you live off the land.

The Marines and the Army take turns pinning the enemy, allowing the other to either catch up and hammer them, or carry out behind the lines commando raids and decapitation strikes.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

:rofl: Nope the horse still isn't dead yet.

 

[aramis]

I have so far stayed out of this, but from a practical standpoint, trusting in Local Forces pressed into service for a crisis deprives you of the advantage of a TL 15 Army.

Just who uses all those TL 15 Tanks?

You have essentially forced the Marines into both the traditional role of the Marines and the traditional role of the Army.

A standing Imperial Army allows units trained and equipped at TL 15 to be ready to deploy for extended operations on Worlds. I think that would be a real advantage over a 100% colonial force.

The IMC definitely does.

 

[aramis]

Some quotes from CT sources, including TTB itself.






Add to the above the character cards in Tarsus and Beltstrike where the ex-army characters served as Imperial Army aides to admirals.

You need to edit it to add sources.

 

[mike wightman]

Here is are a few more:

While their ship is refueling, the players are approached by a young woman in
the uniform of the Imperial army.

S:76 Patrons

This particular type of chameleon suit is Imperial Army
surplus, and has been altered slightly to prevent its wearer being
mistaken as a member of the Imperial Army.

Tarsus boxed adventure.

These grav belts ere Imperial Army issue

Tarsus boxed adventure.

 

[McPerth]

heh. lots of assertions in this thread. need to game this out, see what happens.

That's what I meant when I said

I guess you have played FFW. Has anyone really used the mobile Army units (counters, as opposite to planetary defense battalions) for defense of any planet? It is truly a waste of them, as they will not hold for any long, while you'll need tham if you go on offensive, either for planetary assaults or as garrissons in conquered planets.

Even while allowing for the FFW game flaws on planetary assault (if Solomani war was played according FFW rules, Invasion Earth would probably only take 2-3 weeks at most on it)...