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The Imperial Army

Aramis is avoiding the obvious - his argument is wrong - there are no worlds on the regular IA unit counters in FFW or IE.

He is also ignoring the many references in other CT canon sources that mention an Imperial Army.
 
It would definitely be interesting to hear Mr Miller's views, but I'm mostly with Mike on this one. CT sources overwhelmingly support the idea of an Imperial Army (caps intentional) in that setting. How big it is, where the personnel come from, etc remains up for debate - although FFW and Invasion: Earth, Travellers' Digest No.9 give us some pretty good clues.

However, IYTU you can do what you like. IMTU there is an Imperial Army, it has separate standing to colonial troops raised by member worlds (although it calls on them in time of major conflict), it has separate standing to Huscarles raised by individual nobles, it has separate standing to the Imperial Marines and it fields troops in formed units ranging from battalions to Field Armies.
 
Troops is a REALLY odd word, with lots of meanings.
While I'm generally inclined to like your "HQ and huscarles" model, this troops versus army thing is weak applesauce. If I had to guess, "troops" is used in this context only because it describes rules applicable to regular, colonial, or mercenary units.

It's worth noting that "Army" has no hits in Agent of the imperium except for the ranks table in the appendix; Trooper is used for Ship's Troops, who are marines.
I guess it's also worth noting that the table in AotI is provided alongside tables for naval and marine ranks, strongly implying that the army is either a sister service or has a unified rank structure across the Imperium. That doesn't really support -- or rebut! -- your model.

It really looks to me like the Army is mostly provincial forces, as there are canon references to that, and the size of the numbered unit counters in FFW is roughly correct for being the provincial forces from those worlds without named counters.
Could you please address the world names on FFW or IE counters? Several people in this thread have already asked you about this.

Are the world names really there or not? If they are, it goes a long way toward supporting your model.

Why does Invasion Earth clearly distinguish between regular Imperial and colonial Imperial troops? If the regular units are really just provincial units seconded to the Imperium, what the heck are the colonial units?
 
perhaps the (military arm of the) imperial army exists mostly on paper most of the time, expanding and contracting as needed.

heh. that would explain all those young mercenaries out there ....
 
I have no doubt that in frontier sectors like the Spinward Marches the Imperial Army is a small force that needs to be bolstered by mercenaries and colonial armies drafted into Imperial Service by treaty obligation.
The bulk of the Imperial Army, like the bulk of the IN reaction BatRons, are not stationed in the frontier sectors but are closer to the core sectors so they can be deployed either to the frontier as needed.
I also have no doubt that CT sources point to their being an organised regular Imperial Army.
 
I have no doubt that in frontier sectors like the Spinward Marches the Imperial Army is a small force that needs to be bolstered by mercenaries and colonial armies drafted into Imperial Service by treaty obligation.
The bulk of the Imperial Army, like the bulk of the IN reaction BatRons, are not stationed in the frontier sectors but are closer to the core sectors so they can be deployed either to the frontier as needed.
I also have no doubt that CT sources point to their being an organised regular Imperial Army.

That seems reasonable to me, especially since a TL15 multi-billion pop Core World planet going traitor/rogue is an entirely different proposition to handle then a TL10 10 million balkanized world frontier mess.

We don't normally see THE Imperial Army because only a proportion of it would shift frontierward, and a large percentage of it MUST stay behind as the real taxbase of the Imperium cannot be risked, EVER.

Another reason why the IN cannot be nuking wayward planets, even given whatever salutary terror/examples may be made- don't be killing what pays the salary.
 
IMTU, the Imperial can best be described as Option #2.5: somewhere between #2 Grand Army of the Imperium + Local Worlds' Forces and "HQ & Huscarles Only" Imperial Army.

Just what the Imperial Army is and how it is constituted depends entirely on the time and place where those questions are asked.

LBB:1 and LBB:4 depict the Imperial Army as it exists in the Spinward Marches prior to 1105.

FFW depicts the Imperial Army in the Spinward Marches during the build up to and conduct of that war.

IE depicts the Imperial Army on the Rim during the build up to and conduct of that war.

Every other product depicts the Imperial Army of the time and place in which that product is set.

What the Imperial Army is and how it is constituted varies over 1100 years and 11,000 systems. IMTU the Imperial is a little bit more than HQs controlling "imperialized" units, a little bit less than the "Grand Army" of GT:GF, and varies in time and place.
 
My 2 Cents

The Troops in the games are classified as Regulars and Colonials. The Establishing authority for regular troops could be implied by other canon sources. Colonial on the other hand does support the notion of a "provincial" establishing authority to include funding and regulation there of.

I checked my games it does say troops, The spinward marches campaign uses a key word " Imperialization" of the 4518th LIR.

Given the ambiguity put it to the Emperor and have him hand down an edict.
 
Given the ambiguity put it to the Emperor and have him hand down an edict.

The issue to me is that the Unified Armies people don't recognize the ambiguity. To get around it they resort to contortions of varying extremity, when it seems much easier to simply acknowledge that the sources are contradictory.
 
While I'm generally inclined to like your "HQ and huscarles" model, this troops versus army thing is weak applesauce. If I had to guess, "troops" is used in this context only because it describes rules applicable to regular, colonial, or mercenary units.


I guess it's also worth noting that the table in AotI is provided alongside tables for naval and marine ranks, strongly implying that the army is either a sister service or has a unified rank structure across the Imperium. That doesn't really support -- or rebut! -- your model.


Could you please address the world names on FFW or IE counters? Several people in this thread have already asked you about this.

Are the world names really there or not? If they are, it goes a long way toward supporting your model.

Why does Invasion Earth clearly distinguish between regular Imperial and colonial Imperial troops? If the regular units are really just provincial units seconded to the Imperium, what the heck are the colonial units?

They are. Check the countersheets, right hand side.
 
They are. Check the countersheets, right hand side.
Your right or my right?

1_Invasion_Earth.jpg
 
None of the black on red troop counters have a world printed on them - not one. These are the regular Imperial Army units.

The colonial counters do have a world on some of them, which indicate their world of origin and initial deployment (white on red). None of the colonial troop reinforcement counters have a world of origin printed on them.
 
Just what the Imperial Army is and how it is constituted depends entirely on the time and place where those questions are asked.

this seems 1) the most sensible approach and, as a bonus, 2) the most game-responsive approach.

might find a corps of engineers developing a transportation system on one world, a frontier defense force on a new colony world, a strategic paycheck garrison on a backwater world, or an anti-zhodani specialist team on a border world.
 
I have so far stayed out of this, but from a practical standpoint, trusting in Local Forces pressed into service for a crisis deprives you of the advantage of a TL 15 Army.

Just who uses all those TL 15 Tanks?

You have essentially forced the Marines into both the traditional role of the Marines and the traditional role of the Army.

A standing Imperial Army allows units trained and equipped at TL 15 to be ready to deploy for extended operations on Worlds. I think that would be a real advantage over a 100% colonial force.
 
You have essentially forced the Marines into both the traditional role of the Marines and the traditional role of the Army.

more precisely it is the nature of the game to drive such a practice. naval engagements, not ground actions, tend to determine final outcomes. if infantry have any utility then the marines are up and running and on-the-scene with the fleet so they get used. to use an army is not a simple decision. it must be drawn up on one planet then transported to another - a brief consideration of shipyard construction shows that transports will not be all that numerous, thus transport is a major issue.
 
I have no doubt that in frontier sectors like the Spinward Marches the Imperial Army is a small force that needs to be bolstered by mercenaries and colonial armies drafted into Imperial Service by treaty obligation.

Agreed

The bulk of the Imperial Army, like the bulk of the IN reaction BatRons, are not stationed in the frontier sectors but are closer to the core sectors so they can be deployed either to the frontier as needed.
I also have no doubt that CT sources point to their being an organised regular Imperial Army.

I fully disagree in that. IMHO there's no point of keeping those large reserves in the depots (that are after all Naval facilities, not Army), and moving them long distances would be quite expensive (mostly in CT, where low berth is not an option).

This strategy has sense in fleet, that takes quite long to build and have their own mobility, but armies, you have them anywhere, don't have their own mobility and are quite less time demanding to organize.

Since you send Word from Regina to the Core that you need help, Word would be received in Depot/corridor about 10-14 weeks after it is sent, Vland about 20-24 weeks, and Capital about 28-34 weeks. Since then, reingorcements will take about the same time, so forst reinforcements from Depot Corridor will reach Regina about 6-8 months after word is sent, from Vland about a year, and from Capital about 15-18 months.

While you cannot build a single battle ship in this time, how many troops can you mobilize?

And imagine what represents to move a full army. while moving a fleet involves qute a lot of people (the crews and marines), they are prople accostumated to living in a ship.

Ground troops, aside from being quite more people (if we asume the 500 battalions an army is said in FFW/IE, at about 600 men per battalion, we're talking tabout moving about 300000 people, plus equipment). Just life support means about Mcr 600 per two weeks of travel. And those 300000 men are confined in close quarters (the ships) they are likely not accostumed to, needing some R&R probably more often than the fleet crews (and imagine those 300000 troops coming for R&R to a downtown...).

My opinion is that the Imperial Army is just the support and special duty units to be bolstered by local armies (probably units already so earmarked and trained and equiped), and kept as close to the posible front as posible (though not in the first border line), probably at sector level.

That seems reasonable to me, especially since a TL15 multi-billion pop Core World planet going traitor/rogue is an entirely different proposition to handle then a TL10 10 million balkanized world frontier mess.

We don't normally see THE Imperial Army because only a proportion of it would shift frontierward, and a large percentage of it MUST stay behind as the real taxbase of the Imperium cannot be risked, EVER.

Another reason why the IN cannot be nuking wayward planets, even given whatever salutary terror/examples may be made- don't be killing what pays the salary.

But even this TL15 multi-billion pop Core World can be contained by the Navy if it becomes rogue while Ground troops are assembled/mobilized. it rebellion would not be critical to the Imperium as lon gas it does not spread (and, again, that's IN's task to avoid, not Army's.

And any rebellion(going rogue planet is probably more easy to occur in the frontier than in the Core, where any planet feels (probably) more Imperial loayalty (even if only due to not knowing anything else), knows that it ahs no outside support and is (again probably) in a more stable zone.

And think what would the Core pople, that to a point they feel secure and Imeprium Loyal, of having to maintain such an enormous aremy where it is not expected to be used (except maybe against themselves, as you say). Will they see it as a good way to expend the taxes?

Anothre point is that, unlike the Navy, that mostly stays in orbit, the Army units have to interact more closely with local population, so knowing something about it is a true bonues. And that cannot be achieved from a year distance, it must be closer.

And after all, Army is an offensive tool (unlike the Fleet, that has also a defensive role. Ground troops can defend the planets only in a limited way. If the enemy obtains Space supremacy and has (relatively) unlimited time, Ground units are useless. Army is to take/recover planets when you are at offensive in a (again relative) hurry and decide to invade them.

It's (again IMHO) akin of the Pacific War, when ground troops could not really hold the islands/atolls if the fleet was taken away. And even if they did, their positions could just be bypassed and left for latter (with the plus that in Traveller those baypassed points cannot even act as recon bases for the main force).

So, Imperium does not need a strong Standing Army, just the core needed to mobilize it with reservists and imperialized units in a relatively short time (I'd say from 6 months to a year). And, again, that's cheaper to do relatively close to wher you expect the battle lines (though not close enough to be overrun in the initial attack) than in the Core.
 
Sorry part of that post appears to have disappeared.
What I meant to say was:

are not stationed in the frontier sectors but are closer to the core sectors so they can be deployed either to the frontier or to crush local dissent or rebellions.

As to where they are stationed - CT has way stations which include barracks for Imperial Army units.

It could be that in the core sector worlds the Imperial Army is mostly ceremonial or paramilitary - engaging in police actions, engineering works and the like.

Out on the frontier - certainly the Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim - the Imperial Army would need to be a much more overtly combat ready organisation.

We know from the FFW that the bulk of the regular IN and IA is off board at the start.
 
Those are counters from IE. The set from FFW have world names on the white on red counters.

Only for those Colonial units that are initially deployed on the map (in their respective planets), but not for the Colonial units coming latter as reinforcements, that are not named after their planets,but numbered (and same happens ith Colonial Squadrons).
 
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