The Imperial Army

[Dragoner]

Marc should enjoy his retirement, imo, not be badgered by us fans with questions. :devil:

I actually enjoy the discussions, this one provoked two organizational charts and an adventure idea: "Siege of Fate: the 1197th brigade in action on efate during the FFW," it would make a great mercenary/military campaign.

 

[aramis]

MT, RS, pg 36 & 38

The Armies of the lmperium

IMPERIAL FORCES


The lmperium maintains standing mllitary forces In order to
provide security for its bases and governmental offices, and
in order to maintain peace and order. Imperial forces range
In slze from armies to platoons. Higher level units (armies,
corps, divisions) coordinate wlth local popular forces and include
them in their span of control. Lower level unlts make up
the reaction forces of the lmperium and are generally mobile
units which can respond quickly when trouble flares up.

Uses the term Army as a unit of organization, not a service

Standard chain of ground forces unit sizes currently recognized in the US and NATO, Largest to Smallest:
Theater (XXXXXX)
Army group (XXXXX)
Army (XXXX)
Division (XXX)
Corps (XX)
Brigade (X)
demibrigade (rare) (||||)
Regiment (|||)
Battalion (||)
Company (|)
Platoon (•••)
Section (••)
Squad (•)
Team (°)

The "armies" in the quote you give could very well be marine units of Army size, or even army group size.

 

[Dragoner]

The "armies" in the quote you give could very well be marine units of Army size, or even army group size.

Wait found something: Marines are units normally assigned to squadrons or fleets
In order to glve them a military reactlon capability. They are
under navy jurisdiction.

Marines are even given a separate symbol under Army Units of the Imperium, so they sound like just a subunit of the army, with naval jurisdiction.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Something just crossed my mind. My memory says the 3I only protects the highport and Imperial downports. This is akin to embassy duty. So now you dont need a large Imperial force nor is the world a network of Meson batteries. So you could have a 3I with just marines as a garrison and planetary units being the main defense. This means you could take a world from orbit.

An army may be created when it comes to offensive operations which may explain the time lag in most of the Imperial wars. The bad guys invade, marines try and defend, marines get pushed around, call for army created probably at domain level, Imperial offensive begins.

I think it depends on the world, if my memory serves.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Marines are even given a separate symbol under Army Units of the Imperium, so they sound like just a subunit of the army, with naval jurisdiction.

But they're listed as a separate service in the Char Gen table. Which means they're like the US or UK marines; "soldiers from the sea" or in this case, space.

Getting back to the Imperial Army, I remember the high port and down port thing. But as stated earlier Striker states that other units, planetary defense units, are Imperial Army units. Of course they could be local forces given the charge of defending their worlds, but I would tend to think that big massive planetary defense batteries would be controlled by the Imperial Command, not the local government.

 

[Carlobrand]

Uses the term Army as a unit of organization, not a service

Standard chain of ground forces unit sizes currently recognized in the US and NATO, Largest to Smallest:
Theater (XXXXXX)
Army group (XXXXX)
Army (XXXX)
Corps (XXX)
Division (XX)
Brigade (X)
demibrigade (rare) (||||)
Regiment (|||)
Battalion (||)
Company (|)
Platoon (•••)
Section (••)
Squad (•)
Team (°)

The "armies" in the quote you give could very well be marine units of Army size, or even army group size.

I think Corps and Division are reversed.

 

[Dragoner]

But they're listed as a separate service in the Char Gen table. Which means they're like the US or UK marines; "soldiers from the sea" or in this case, space.

Getting back to the Imperial Army, I remember the high port and down port thing. But as stated earlier Striker states that other units, planetary defense units, are Imperial Army units. Of course they could be local forces given the charge of defending their worlds, but I would tend to think that big massive planetary defense batteries would be controlled by the Imperial Command, not the local government.

Don't mind that, I am just turning the argument around. It seems fairly certain that the passage there was written with an army in mind, really, I would have to see in it specifically state there is not a standing army.

Look at it this way, what happens if Rhylanor decides to not send troops to Regina, saying let them defend themselves, then what does the Imperium do, invade them?

However IMTU I do include Marines as a separate service, everyone likes them and that is enough for me; I don't really use parallels from today as much as I can, that would be like the US Army having phalanx as a unit or something.

Depends on the world for sure, so I can see local forces manning PD batteries and Imperial Army doing so as well. The interesting thing about worlds, as compared to fortresses, is that they can hold out forever. We have.

 

[aramis]

I think Corps and Division are reversed.

Might be. Yup... editing.

 

[Icosahedron]

This would be so much easier if Marc could be paid to hangout here and just answer Traveller Questions.

Marc should enjoy his retirement, imo, not be badgered by us fans with questions. :devil:

There are people here who would argue with Marc, too, so I'm not sure it'd help...

 

[Gray Pennell]

There are people here who would argue with Marc, too, so I'm not sure it'd help...

Unfortunately your right. People want TTU to be OTU. I would just settle for some background clarification.

 

[rancke]

There are people here who would argue with Marc, too, so I'm not sure it'd help...

Of course it would help. It would give us the opportunity to convince Marc that we are right and he is wrong.

(Only in the cases where he IS wrong, of course). :rofl:


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

True, but for all the discussions we've had here I've rarely, though occasionally, seen real tempers fly here. The Imperial Army issue seems to have lots of disagreement, but nothing that brings out the worst in people. Unlike Car Wars or Midway or some other big time war game. I think even D&D has had a few flare ups with players trying to reinterpret rules.

The Imperial Army, to me anyway, seems to vacillates in size and capability based upon each world's needs and worth. Efate, Regina et al are more valuable than, oh, say, some agro-business world in the middle of Zeda, whose primary export is grains and livestock. What are the chances of ANY invader getting that far into the Imperium (Terrans included). Nil. So I think any Imperial garrison on said Farm World is going to be maybe a platoon on a good will tour, or maybe one some special practice maneuvers or something. And even then they leave, leaving absolutely no military presence at all. Again, kind of like Wyoming. They have a moderate USAF presence, but not much else. It's not needed.

Worlds near Hiver space may have an interesting mix of military units. Worlds in the Solomani sphere of incluence would have major Battledress forces; marines and army alike. Ditto with worlds near the K'Kree frontier. In the heart of the Imperium though? Probably not.

Just my take.

 

[mike wightman]

Of course it would help. It would give us the opportunity to convince Marc that we are right and he is wrong.

(Only in the cases where he IS wrong, of course). :rofl:


Hans

You mean like where he was wrong to validate jump masking in GT and wrong to validate the rise in Regina's TL due to a typo?

 

[77topaz]

You mean like where he was wrong to validate jump masking in GT and wrong to validate the rise in Regina's TL due to a typo?

Well, Regina is one of the most important worlds in the Marches... or, at least, one of the best known and most detailed.

 

[mike wightman]

And it was most detailed in LBB6 Scouts 1983, which gave the entire system stats.

And guess what TL Regina is?

10 - the same as the FFW board game and the Spinward Marches Supplement.

It was Spinward Marches Campaign which, due to loads of mistakes and typos, elevated regina to TL12.

Now since SMC is set post FFW in the hiatus that precedes MT I have no problem with Noris ordering the improvement in the Regina manufacturing base - but I am not taking a correcting pen to my FFW board game, S:3, A:1, A:3, LBB6

But - before Hans jumps in - Marc approved the retcon to TL12 so get your correcting fluid out

 

[Blue Ghost]

Ah, but TL12 in what areas? Is there a group of barbarians skinning animals and making loin cloths for the local starship techs? :smirk:

Do a search for Whipsnade's tirade on planet/system generation were a vacuum world can have bronze age tech. One wonders if Regina has an artifact of that.

"How many pelts to ride the shuttle to the orbital complex? I'll walk first!"

 

[rancke]

You mean like where he was wrong to validate jump masking in GT and wrong to validate the rise in Regina's TL due to a typo?

He didn't validate jump masking. He told Chris Thrash that he had intended it to work like that from the beginning.

And changing Regina's TL from 10 to 12 due to a typo would be wrong. Retconning the TL for a good reason, OTOH (like because it made a lot better sense that a world with the history and political position of Regina had a much better TL than 10), would be quite right. Granted, a TL of 12 is on the low side too, but what with the continuity provided by that typo, it's acceptable; especially since it allows the Space TL to be 13. :devil:

No, the example that really springs to my mind is his refusal to adopt tidal force rather than diameter as the determining factor for jump limits. That idea is just so elegant, so obviously right that I can't help suspecting that somehow Marc Miller must have misunderstood the explanation when it was put to him. Because if he had understood it, he would have adopted it with loud hosannas.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

He didn't validate jump masking. He told Chris Thrash that he had intended it to work like that from the beginning.

Or did Chris persuade him that that's how it could be read? I certainly haven't seen the transcript of that conversation, but I do have Marc's original article to go by.

Sorry, but the original article has 3 statements - 2 refute jump masking and 1 supports it if interpreted that way

And changing Regina's TL from 10 to 12 due to a typo would be wrong. Retconning the TL for a good reason, OTOH (like because it made a lot better sense that a world with the history and political position of Regina had a much better TL than 10), would be quite right. Granted, a TL of 12 is on the low side too, but what with the continuity provided by that typo, it's acceptable; especially since it allows the Space TL to be 13. :devil:

Shame it happened then - cos a typo is what it is

And different TLs for different technologies is a DGPism

No, the example that really springs to my mind is his refusal to adopt tidal force rather than diameter as the determining factor for jump limits. That idea is just so elegant, so obviously right that I can't help suspecting that somehow Marc Miller must have misunderstood the explanation when it was put to him. Because if he had understood it, he would have adopted it with loud hosannas.


Hans

I completely agree with you on this one

 

[Blue Ghost]

What is "retcon"? I heard it used by a private security actor a few years back, but I don't understand what it is.

 

[rancke]

What is "retcon"? I heard it used by a private security actor a few years back, but I don't understand what it is.

It's a contraction of "retroactive continuity". It's when an author changes some details about a fictional character and claims that not only is Megaman no longer the long-lost heir to the Kingdom of Arglegarble, he never was, and all the old stories that mentions that relationship should be ignored (on that point).

In his first book, Peter O'Donnell's heroine Modesty Blaise was said to be a refugee child in the refugee camps shortly after WWII. However, each new book took place a few months after the previous one but was published years apart, so eventually Modesty Blaise's perambulations in refugee camps was changed to shortly after the Suez Crisis (IIRC). Turns out she wasn't even born back in WWII days, and what's more, she never was.

Comic books are a fertile field for that sort of thing. Authors (or editors) tend to reboot comic book heroes every seven years or so,

Or, to grab an example completely out of the blue , by the Book 2 rules the Kinunir could be built at TL 10[*]. Later it was established that you needed TL13 to build jump-4 drives (at least in the OTU), so the TL of the Kinunir was changed[*]. The Kinunir was not a TL10 design, and what's more, it never was.

[*] Or so I've been told; I haven't actually checked for myself.

[**] Sadly, GDW muffed it and change it to TL15, but let's not go into that. Painful subject. ​

Basically it's the intellectual property owner telling you "Forget what I told you before; this is what I'm telling you now, and it's what I say goes."


Hans