The nearly impossible 100 dT J2 Starship

[atpollard]

And you just broke the hull displacement rule

1t for fire control internal according to LBB2

1t for the whole turret internal according to LBB5

You go over your hull displacement by as much as 1t (probably less) and you now count as the next largest hull size for drive performance.

Have you considered the paradox that a 100 dT J2 starship is nearly impossible under the rules?

If I build a Hull of EXACTLY 100 tons, then adding any turret will increase the tonnage to something over 100 dTons. As a ship of 101 to 200 dTons, the performance is only J1.

If I build a 99 dT hull with a 1 dT turret, then the complete ship is a J2 starship. However, the ship is sold without the turret, so it leaves the shipyard less than 100 dTons and, per the rules, too small to be a Starship. In addition, a turret of any size other than the turret designed to make the turret and hull 100 dTons combined, will push the ship into J1 (up to 200 dT) or below the 100 dT minimum.

A 100 dT J2 ship is a precarious beast – beware after market changes or battle damage.

Just a quirk that I mention for fun.
Please don’t try to fix it or seek an errata, just enjoy it.

 

[pendragonman]

You are a sick man. Sick sick sick.

:rofl:

 

[HG_B]

If I build a 99 dT hull with a 1 dT turret, then the complete ship is a J2 starship.

Actually, you allocate 1Dton for hard-points during hull design. It is a place holder the same size as a turret....

 

[atpollard]

Actually, you allocate 1Dton for hard-points during hull design. It is a place holder the same size as a turret....

... and what is the cost of a blank turret? Just in case I want to remove a damaged turret for repairs and still be able to jump.
... and beware upgrading to certain other HG turrets.

Also, either
1. a single, double and triple turret are exactly the same size,
or
2. changing the turret will change the displacement ... back to J0 or J1.

Both options lead to a head scratch.

 

[HG_B]

... and what is the cost of a blank turret? Just in case I want to remove a damaged turret for repairs and still be able to jump.
... and beware upgrading to certain other HG turrets.

What? It is hull repair cost if you don't have it still.

Also, either
1. a single, double and triple turret are exactly the same size,
or
2. changing the turret will change the displacement ... back to J0 or J1.
)

Umm, those turrets take the same tonnage. Read the rules. That would be the best place for you to start...

 

[mike wightman]

Have you considered the paradox that a 100 dT J2 starship is nearly impossible under the rules?

If I build a Hull of EXACTLY 100 tons, then adding any turret will increase the tonnage to something over 100 dTons. As a ship of 101 to 200 dTons, the performance is only J1.

If I build a 99 dT hull with a 1 dT turret, then the complete ship is a J2 starship. However, the ship is sold without the turret, so it leaves the shipyard less than 100 dTons and, per the rules, too small to be a Starship. In addition, a turret of any size other than the turret designed to make the turret and hull 100 dTons combined, will push the ship into J1 (up to 200 dT) or below the 100 dT minimum.

A 100 dT J2 ship is a precarious beast – beware after market changes or battle damage.

Just a quirk that I mention for fun.
Please don’t try to fix it or seek an errata, just enjoy it.

Which is why the HG version of the turret costing internal tonnage makes a lot more sense than the CT LBB2 version where you have 1t of internal fire control and then a blister of extremely small proportions on the hull

 

[mike wightman]

Actually, you allocate 1Dton for hard-points during hull design. It is a place holder the same size as a turret....

Nope - the hardpoint cost money but no internal tonnage.

It's the fire control that takes up 1 ton internally, and you can install that later.

 

[far-trader]

Turret:

http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-20-F.html

nuff said

The hardpoint is the turret is the fire control equipment is 1ton.

Left empty (uninstalled) you have 1ton of space wasted (potentially useful for other purposes). Either leaving a hole in your hull (bad streamling) or plated over (possibly leaving your ship a little light but not enough to worry over). I generally see an empty turret as a domed over hole in the hull, with a clear dome you can use it as a cool observation room. Otherwise it's a handy closet for extra gear.

Filled (installed) you have everything needed (not counting computer and software if you want to pick nits).

 

[Matt123]

Turret:

http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-20-F.html

nuff said

lol, glad to see someone else was interested

 

[BlackBat242]

Nope - the hardpoint cost money but no internal tonnage.

It's the fire control that takes up 1 ton internally, and you can install that later.

As far-trader said...

In the design phase you allocate 1 ton for "possible later weapons installation". This covers the fire control/turret tonnage. You have a nice half-bubble on the hull where the turret can go later.

The space is there in the ship, and still counts for the hull displacement, without regard to whether it is filled with fire control equipment, soap bubbles*, or nothing whatsoever!

The "problem" as described in the OP is nonsense... it does not exist!



* I like the idea of a "transparent aluminum" bubble used as a bathtub... so you can "swim among the stars"!

 

[atpollard]

Umm, those turrets take the same tonnage. Read the rules. That would be the best place for you to start...

1. your statement "read the rules" could be read as somewhat insulting, but since this is a 'just for fun' topic, I will assume that an emoticon was implied but not inserted.

2. I read the rules. LBB2 says nothing about the size of a turret. HG is actually subject to interpretation on the matter. It says that the turret for a laser, missile or sandcaster is one ton whether one, two or three weapons are installed in it. While this could very reasonably be interpreted as "a singe, double and triple turret are all 1 dTon." It could also very reasonably be interpretd to mean that "all laser, missile and sand turrets in HG are triple turrets, some with empty slots - and that is why thet all are 1 dTon." I always interpreted it as the first case, but there really is no reason that the second case could not be true. (see I told you that I read them)

 

[atpollard]

The "problem" as described in the OP is nonsense... it does not exist!

Untrue. It is semantic in nature and based upon a rigid and literal reading of the rules ... but it is not 'nonsense'.

"Don't crush the dwarf, hand me the pliers" is nonsense. See the difference?

Here is a question for you. Using Far Trader's link as a reference, if the 'can' inside the ship is the "one ton set aside for fire control" then what is the volume of the box that sticks out of the hull? If it is greater than zero, then it increases the tonnage of the ship over simply covering the can for future use. Thus the tonnage of the ship must be different with vs without a turret installed. Which was the point of the OP.

 

[far-trader]

Here is a question for you. Using Far Trader's link as a reference, if the 'can' inside the ship is the "one ton set aside for fire control" then what is the volume of the box that sticks out of the hull? If it is greater than zero, then it increases the tonnage of the ship over simply covering the can for future use. Thus the tonnage of the ship must be different with vs without a turret installed. Which was the point of the OP.

It is all part of the same 1ton (or larger for the barbette versions). That was my main point. The difference of opinion seems based on a misinterpretation of what "fire control" is.

The volume of the box that sticks out of the hull is part of the reserved 1ton for fire control per the rules. Which as the link notes, fire control is a term that includes: the gunner(s) position(s), targeting aids (local and remote reporting), turret tracking gears (training and elevation*, powered and manual, locally and remotely controlled), and the actual physical weapons themselves. And in the case of Traveller, local ready-rounds for the launchers.

Granted the turret shown is more than 1ton (maybe, just eyeballing it, not much more if it's all to scale) but the principle is the same and I see the Traveller turret having all that (except for the added crewing).

For what it's worth and/or of interest the smallest I've been able to make a turret I'm happy with fitting the description and needs comes to about 2tons. I can live with that given the sloppiness of Traveller deckplans and permitted fudging. It's basically a can with about a 3.0m diameter and a 3.0m height (about 21m3 = 1.5tons) with a domed cover (7m3 = 0.5tons). The domed cover houses the barrels/launch rails. The can houses the gearing (outboard of the center main 3m x 1.5m housing in the crescents) and in the middle the gunnery station (about 0.5tons) with a seat and electronics (etc) and the bulk of the weapons which include capacitors for the lasers and ready-ammo for the launchers.

Note: For really anal sticklers, if one made it a sphere of 3m diameter you would have your 1ton turret (close enough at about 14m3). I just found that cramped and awkward to draw clearly on deckplans

* On a side discussion (weapon batteries) also note the independent elevation for each gun in the turret, and individual sights for each gun. Link that in with computer control and quick action and I see no issues for aiming, tracking, and firing at separate targets with each weapon in a turret, especially not over a Traveller space combat turn Even linking weapons in different turrets is not difficult imo.

 

[robject]

Besides, does plus or minus 1 ton really matter in this context?

I mean, aside from making something interesting to talk about that's Traveller related.

 

[HG_B]

Nope - the hardpoint cost money but no internal tonnage.

Who cares about internal tonnage? We're talking about (in this small part of the thread) making allowances for the VOLUME of the future turret outside the hull. You CANNOT allocate hardpoints AFTER the ship is built. Why? Because, the future turrets have to be taken into account as you build.


Hope that clarifies the answer.

 

[HG_B]

2. I read the rules. LBB2 says nothing about the size of a turret. HG is actually subject to interpretation on the matter. It says that the turret for a laser, missile or sandcaster is one ton whether one, two or three weapons are installed in it.

Correct. As I stated.

 

[atpollard]

Correct. As I stated.

Nice blinders.
Have a good day, I am.

 

[HG_B]

Nice blinders.
Have a good day, I am.

???

"It says that the turret for a laser, missile or sandcaster is one ton whether one, two or three weapons are installed in it."

As I stated. What ARE you talking about, blinders?

 

[atpollard]

It is all part of the same 1ton (or larger for the barbette versions).

The volume of the box that sticks out of the hull is part of the reserved 1ton for fire control per the rules.

If a warship were being tranported from the shipyard that built the hull to another shipyard that was scheduled to install the [turret-gun-firecontrol-hardpoint ... call it whatever makes you happy], they might cover the hole in the structure for transport (to keep rain and seawater out) but would they really install a box over the hole to 'reserve' the volume of the future [gun-holder-thingey]?

Not installing the thingey would make the physical displacement (total volume if completely submerged) of the warship less without it's weapons installed than its displacement with its weapon installed.

Is an unarmed Scout less than 100 dTons? Sure the engines were designed for the full 100 dTons, but the MD & JD rules are specific about tonnage. A 101 dTon ship in LBB2 is 101-200 dT and a 99 dT ship cannot mount a Jump Drive.

I didn't create the rules and I don't think that they are broken, I am just having fun pointing out some consequences that tend to be overlooked (with good reason).

For anyone else reading this who thinks that a fraction of a dT is too small to worry about, what about a Scout ship designed in HG to mount a Barbette (5 dT). Is there a difference in the ships tonnage without the weapon installed vs with the weapon?

 

[atpollard]

???

"It says that the turret for a laser, missile or sandcaster is one ton whether one, two or three weapons are installed in it."

As I stated. What ARE you talking about, blinders?

You saw this:

It says that the turret for a laser, missile or sandcaster is one ton whether one, two or three weapons are installed in it.

but apparently did not see the rest of it:

HG is actually subject to interpretation on the matter.

It says that the turret for a laser, missile or sandcaster is one ton whether one, two or three weapons are installed in it. While this could very reasonably be interpreted as "a singe, double and triple turret are all 1 dTon."

It could also very reasonably be interpretd to mean that "all laser, missile and sand turrets in HG are triple turrets, some with empty slots - and that is why they all are 1 dTon."

Thus it is NOT 'correct as [you] stated', but rather one possible interpretation that may or may not be correct.