The nearly impossible 100 dT J2 Starship

[Maccat]

Well the jump 2 one-use jump tape standard is for an unarmed courier, not a scout, for 20kCr, for an extra 10% we can provide you with a recompiled one to ensure safe arrival at your destination and avoid a lethal misjump, well sorta that is <s>.

The slow boat coming to dock with you has the tape for you, which will be delivered on docking. Ignore the skull and cross bones, it's just our corporate logo, and be advised that the full platoon aboard is for OUR security <s>.

 

[far-trader]

lol, glad to see someone else was interested

I did wonder if you meant you'd already been linking similar

I hadn't really been following the many threads on it but just now noticed one where you provided references.

Interested yes, more so years ago, as an amatuer quasi-historian war interest. So much forgotten and books collecting dust... but now and then something rings a bell and the internet is chock full of stuff to fill in the gaps.

 

[HiverLord]

There's always near-C rocks...
Hans

NO, PLEASE! I BEG OF YOU!!!
NOT THE NEAR-C ROCKS DISCUSSION!


:rofl:

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Its a smuggler's hold!!!!

Which is always overlooked by guys wearing white battle dress.

It can hold 3 adult humans, 2 robots and an oversized bigfoot they picked just north of Vancover last year...

 

[Rigel Stardin]

And if you think the 3 adult humans is an old guy and two young guys, you'd be wrong.

They're illegal aliens hired to man the gunners station and who don't mind living on foodstamps...

 

[robject]

now back to near c rocks...

and piracy....

and aslan invasions.....

...in comfy shoes.

and the Annic Nova...

and starship bridge (and computer) size...

and droptanks...

and fighter effectiveness...

and Foreven sector...

and the jump drive...

and the major trade routes...

and the maneuver drive...

and jump masking...

and jump boats/torpedos...

and life support...

and the power plant...

and interstellar traffic...

and the xboat route...

 

[aramis]

Only when we have nothing better to talk about

There's always near-C rocks...


Hans

Female aslan sexual preferences, pirates and the OTU, modes of piracy, and whether or not Branj and Norris are an item...

There are several fine debates on whether a 'mount' is a weapon or a turret scattered about. For me, this was a brief escape from that.

Thanks for the diversion...

To which, I say, the turret's volume is within the allowed slop, so it's a non-issue.

How near c?

NO, PLEASE! I BEG OF YOU!!!
NOT THE NEAR-C ROCKS DISCUSSION!


:rofl:

Yeah, let's avoid that one. It really does get to be possessed of high molecular energy...

Its a smuggler's hold!!!!

Which is always overlooked by guys wearing white battle dress.

It can hold 3 adult humans, 2 robots and an oversized bigfoot they picked just north of Vancover last year...

And if you think the 3 adult humans is an old guy and two young guys, you'd be wrong.

They're illegal aliens hired to man the gunners station and who don't mind living on foodstamps...

Gunners don't live on foodstamps... under MT, at least, their KCr1 a month is above and beyond maintenance expenses being paid by the employer and adequate for a duke...

 

[atpollard]

Thanks for the diversion...

To which, I say, the turret's volume is within the allowed slop, so it's a non-issue.

Your welcome.

So how large is that slop anyway?
Five or Ten percent would cover barbettes and allow jump capable shuttles of 90 to 95 dTons.

Can my 200 dT ship actually be 220 dT (+10%)?
That extra 20 dT of cargo would really help out on those tight budget months.

Gunners don't live on foodstamps... under MT, at least, their KCr1 a month is above and beyond maintenance expenses being paid by the employer and adequate for a duke...

Now that is just plain wrong. A pilot earns 5x as much and a Pilot-Emperor standard of living just smacks of Imperial Elitism. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!! CHARGE THOSE SHIPS AND TAKE BACK WHAT THEY HAVE STOLEN!!! :devil:

 

[atpollard]

Near C rocks (sand)

On a serious note, I always had a question about near C rocks ... not the giant ones used to shatter planets by a group of mischievous teenagers with an old surplus MD-A that is past its prime ... but the little ones - like grains of sand - that my ship will collide with while accelerating at 4G to a far gas giant.

In striker, I can convert my Starship armor to equivalent thickness in hard steel (like real Battleship and Tank armor is measured in). So how is penetration calculated?

I always wondered if that grain of sand would tear a giant hole in my front armor - explosively decompressing the 'main compartment' - or would it over-penetrate and punch a pinhole through the front armor, the interior partitions, the bulkhead to engineering, the rear armor and just keep going (all relative to the ship since the grain is actually moving quite slowly and the ship is moving quite fast, but the end result is the same).

 

[atpollard]

Gunners don't live on foodstamps... under MT, at least, their KCr1 a month is above and beyond maintenance expenses being paid by the employer and adequate for a duke...

Actually, if 1 Cr = 1 US$(1971), then the gunner and Duke live on $12,000 (1971) per year? So the Duke qualifies for foodstamps, too?

No wonder all those people are living on airless rock balls ... it is the only housing that they can afford!

 

[pendragonman]

Actually, if 1 Cr = 1 US$(1971), then the gunner and Duke live on $12,000 (1971) per year? So the Duke qualifies for foodstamps, too?

No wonder all those people are living on airless rock balls ... it is the only housing that they can afford!

Updating to today, that Cr 1000/month is roughly equivalent to Cr 5000/mo today, and 60K a year isn't bad for a single guy.

Of course, you have to have a job to make that, but that is a different issue.o:

 

[HG_B]

but the little ones - like grains of sand - that my ship will collide with while accelerating at 4G to a far gas giant.

Hmm,... @1/2 gram while going about 8000 km/sec.
K.E. = 16,000,000,000 Joules.

Not pretty

 

[jawillroy]

Hmm,... @1/2 gram while going about 8000 km/sec.
K.E. = 16,000,000,000 Joules.

Not pretty

Plus, imagine the effect of a high velocity passage through a sandcaster burst... "Swiss-cheez-o-rama, Sam! That's neat!

Makes me wonder if part of the M-Drive, in addition to its inclusion of the ship's grav plates and inertial compensation, also ought to include a low-grade repulsor field to prevent such ugliness... but that'd play heck with missiles if it were powerful enough to deal with high relative velocity dust bunnies.

 

[HG_B]

Plus, imagine the effect of a high velocity passage through a sandcaster burst... "Swiss-cheez-o-rama, Sam! That's neat!

Makes me wonder if part of the M-Drive, in addition to its inclusion of the ship's grav plates and inertial compensation, also ought to include a low-grade repulsor field to prevent such ugliness... but that'd play heck with missiles if it were powerful enough to deal with high relative velocity dust bunnies.

Yes, if you work out the power requirements needed to produce a field strong enough to deter the small stuff, no missile would EVER get through. Plus the power requirements (the strength has to be constant) would require much more P.P.

 

[atpollard]

Hmm,... @1/2 gram while going about 8000 km/sec.
K.E. = 16,000,000,000 Joules.

Not pretty

Yeah, that’s a lot of energy. However, from Hunting, I know that a small caliber high velocity bullet will often over-penetrate game targets … resulting in a small hole and less internal trauma than a larger, slower bullet with a lower total energy.

Some rules attempt to simulate this phenomenon by granting AP rounds greater penetration but lower damage than, say, a hollow point round of similar mass.

A grain of sand is pretty small and, as you pointed out, the energy is really large, so the unit energy per square cm is phenomenal. At what point will it simple punch a pinhole through anything in it's path and continue on with lots of energy remaining? How much of that energy will be transferred to the armor?

At a slow velocity, the grain will bounce off the armored hull.
At some greater velocity, the grain will become imbedded in the armor but not penetrate (transferring all of its energy to the armor).
At some still greater velocity the grain will crater the armor, deforming a large area and continuing on to deliver its remaining KE to internal components.
Lastly, at some unimaginable velocity, the grain will penetrate the armor faster than it can deform creating a pinhole and a spray of plasma inside the hull.

So where does over-penetration become an issue?

 

[HG_B]

At a slow velocity, the grain will bounce off the armored hull.
At some greater velocity, the grain will become imbedded in the armor but not penetrate (transferring all of its energy to the armor).
At some still greater velocity the grain will crater the armor, deforming a large area and continuing on to deliver its remaining KE to internal components.
Lastly, at some unimaginable velocity, the grain will penetrate the armor faster than it can deform creating a pinhole and a spray of plasma inside the hull.

So where does over-penetration become an issue?

Good points. However, given that there is atmosphere inside, the resulting molten jet on the backside of the armor and the air friction during "punch through" is going to kill anyone near its path and any major equip will be severely damaged. Can you imagine the pass through if it is the fusion reactor?

 

[far-trader]

Plus, imagine the effect of a high velocity passage through a sandcaster burst... "Swiss-cheez-o-rama, Sam! That's neat!

Makes me wonder if part of the M-Drive, in addition to its inclusion of the ship's grav plates and inertial compensation, also ought to include a low-grade repulsor field to prevent such ugliness...

Such has long been so in MTU, and iirc part of the OTU to some degree someplace (canon fwiw).

...but that'd play heck with missiles if it were powerful enough to deal with high relative velocity dust bunnies.

Yes, if you work out the power requirements needed to produce a field strong enough to deter the small stuff, no missile would EVER get through. Plus the power requirements (the strength has to be constant) would require much more P.P.

Nope. As I mentioned once before when musing about this effect of the maneuver drive field, missiles are still a threat because they defeat the field by being powered with a similar active maneuver drive field (which by the way also protects them from dust and sand - sand does not stop missiles*). Likewise collisions with other powered craft are a threat, even more so because of the much greater mass.

* not in LBB2 and I think LBB5 screwed up in changing that

 

[atpollard]

Good points. However, given that there is atmosphere inside, the resulting molten jet on the backside of the armor and the air friction during "punch through" is going to kill anyone near its path and any major equip will be severely damaged. Can you imagine the pass through if it is the fusion reactor?

At 8000 km/s the grain will pass completely through a 50 meter long ship in 1/160,000 of a second with a force of 16,000 TERA-Joules per square meter - I have a hunch (which could be completely wrong) that the result might be closer to a pinhole diameter core of the ship being instantly sheared off and blasted out the back of the hull as a jet of expanding plasma while the sand continues on its way with 99.9999...% of its KE still intact. There may simply be no time for a transfer of heat or energy to other internal components - the ship and internal atmosphere might behave as an incompressible solid block - hole punch on paper time.

Given the size and power density of a Fusion PP, it may be the only thing on a ship that the grain of sand would bounce off of.

 

[HG_B]

Nope. As I mentioned once before when musing about this effect of the maneuver drive field, missiles are still a threat because they defeat the field by being powered with a similar active maneuver drive field (which by the way also protects them from dust and sand - sand does not stop missiles*). Likewise collisions with other powered craft are a threat, even more so because of the much greater mass.

* not in LBB2 and I think LBB5 screwed up in changing that

Nope. Two M-drives don't cancel each other. Also, there is nothing in CT covering this.

 

[far-trader]

Nope. Two M-drives don't cancel each other.

Not at all what I said.

Also, there is nothing in CT covering this.

BINGO! Give the man a prize

There is NOTHING AT ALL in CT (or most of Traveller at all for that matter, and I only hedge because there might be a mention somewhere) about a threat from collisions with interstellar dust. NOTHING about a threat from collisions with Sand.

So, what does one do? Presume it happens and start destroying ships left and right? Or presume there is some factor at work that protects ships from this non-threat? I know which works for me

...or did you mean that there is nothing suggesting a deflection field is at work? As mentioned I'm pretty sure there is mention somewhere in canon. BUT more to the point I decided something like it had to be at work to explain why such a clear and present danger was not mentioned as a threat. Just like the heat buildup and radiation issues. They are non-issues because some system at work behind the scenes takes care of it.

In Traveller.

Oh sure, it may be that the creators simply didn't think about it (I expect they did though). That still leaves us with the problem if we do want to address it. And not changing the game overmuch in the process is the best way imo. So, deflection field it is. Unless you have a better idea? Speak up, share it...