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The nearly impossible 100 dT J2 Starship

Not at all what I said.

Close enough unless you want to elaborate with the physics of it... ;)



BINGO! Give the man a prize :D ... ...or did you mean that there is nothing suggesting a deflection field is at work? As mentioned I'm pretty sure there is mention somewhere in canon.

Yes, it is an large hole that was either, not thought of or, ignored by the designers. I have no idea which.

And yes, I meant that there is nothing in cannon about this. I've read every rule book several times and I would have remembered this one.

Maybe Marc will address in T-5 as it is an old problem with the rules...
 
Beltstrike - the CT version - mentions that part of the m-drive produces a field to deflects harmful stellar radiation.

That's about as close as it gets.
 
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Oh - and in CT missiles are affected by sand.

In Mayday there is a negative DM to hit, and in the missiles special supplement it mentions that missiles are incapacitated on a roll of 12 when passing through a sand cloud.
 
...while accelerating at 4G to a far gas giant.

Hmm,... @1/2 gram while going about 8000 km/sec.
K.E. = 16,000,000,000 Joules.

Not pretty

It would be the classical Bad Thing but let's not overstate the case for the sake of hyperbole. It's not 8000km/s for the case stated. More like just shy of 6000km/s. Yes it is still a silly amount of potential energy ("just" some 9,000,000,000 Joules*), but really, exaggeration is not needed to make the case. Accuracy is more valued. To get close to 8000km/s you'd need 6G on the trip. Perhaps you misread/thought it was 6G.

* And stating it as Joules lends to the exaggeration of the potential threat, that 9,000,000,000 J is only about 2tons of TNT if I did the math right (by all means check it). A tiny fraction (1/9500th) of the frist A-Bomb. If that is the case then maybe it really is no worry even adding the effect to the game without worrying about magic deflector shields. That sounds about right (WAG) for a single Traveller missile hit ;) and the odds of it happening are exceedingly long. And most impacts are going to have far less energy, that is about the maximum, presuming a long trip at high G and the impact at the maximum velocity.
 
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Beltstrike - the CT version - mentions that part of the m-drive produces a field to deflects harmful stellar radiation.

That's about as close as it gets.

Probably what I was (mis)recalling :)

Oh - and in CT missiles are affected by sand.

In Mayday there is a negative DM to hit, and in the missiles special supplement it mentions that missiles are incapacitated on a roll of 12 when passing through a sand cloud.

But not in LBB2 as I said. Thanks, I had forgotten that Mayday changed it (probably on purpose ;) ). I generally ignore SS3 :)
 
Yes it is still a silly amount of potential energy ("just" some 9,000,000,000 Joules*), but really, exaggeration is not needed to make the case. Accuracy is more valued. To get close to 8000km/s you'd need 6G on the trip. Perhaps you misread/thought it was 6G.

Nope, a 4 G trip from Earth to Saturn earns you a velocity mid-point of ~7479 km/sec.

* And stating it as Joules lends to the exaggeration of the potential threat, that 9,000,000,000 J is only about 2tons of TNT if I did the math right

You didn't do it right.. That is the total energy in a spherical area. Not a single point.

As I correctly pointed out, it is a hole in the rules.
 
Nope, a 4 G trip from Earth to Saturn earns you a velocity mid-point of ~7479 km/sec.

Seriously? No, I'm right you're wrong (in this case) since I used Traveller's distance (it is the game we're talking about and not specific solar systems). But it's easy enough to do for Earth-Saturn if you insist. Closest or furthest approach? Or mean? Or what exact distance if you're being so pedantic? If you're going to use specific special cases you really should state them at the outset and save us all a lot of pointless typing.

Using closest (1.2BKm) I get 6858km/sec for Earth to Saturn, and furthest (1.67BKm) I get 8090km/sec. So I guess you're using the mean distance. Whatever...



You didn't do it right.. That is the total energy in a spherical area. Not a single point.

No, I did it right. Is that the energy or not? Yes it is. Point effect or spherical area? Seriously?? More pedantry and missing the point entirely.

Finis.
 
Using closest (1.2BKm) I get 6858km/sec for Earth to Saturn, and furthest (1.67BKm) I get 8090km/sec. So I guess you're using the mean distance. Whatever...

I think I used a mean distance I found with a quick Google.




No, I did it right. Is that the energy or not? Yes it is.

No, for our purposes, energy that doesn't impact the hull, isn't energy. So, nope, incorrect by a country mile.
 
There is NOTHING AT ALL in CT (or most of Traveller at all for that matter, and I only hedge because there might be a mention somewhere) about a threat from collisions with interstellar dust. NOTHING about a threat from collisions with Sand.

deflection field it is. Unless you have a better idea? Speak up, share it...

<sigh>

How soon they forget....:confused:

I did calculations on the danger of dust impact on TRAVELLER starships a long time ago, using STRIKER ratings (so I could convert kinetic energy into STRIKER armor penetration ratings).

The short answer is that Traveller starships (even unarmored ones) are safe from dust impact up to about 0.1c (that's about 30,000 km/s velocity), thanks to the STRIKER armor rating 40 for an unarmored starship hull. Ships with armored hulls can get up to much higher velocities, even 0.5c or better.

I found the kinetic energy equivalent of the energy needed to penetrate a starship hull (using the STRIKER penetration rating of 1kg of TNT demo charges as a standard), and turned that into the velocity needed for an impact with an average dust particle to produce that much energy.

If you want the long answer (with calculations) let me know and I'll post it (again).
 
Maximum speed of an unarmored Traveller spaceship.

Assumptions/data:

The STRIKER armor rating of an unarmored Traveller spaceship is 40 (errata, 2nd edition STRIKER Book 2, p.41).

STRIKER says that 1 demo point equals the explosive power of 1kg of TNT (Striker Book 2, p. 26).

Detonating 1 kilogram of TNT gives an energy of 4.18E6 Joules.

The kinetic energy (KE) of an impact is given by the formula:

KE(in Joules) =(.5)x(mass of object in kilograms)x((velocity of object in meters/second)squared)
which can be solved for the velocity as:
Velocity of object (in meters/second) = Square root of (KE/(.5)x(mass in kg))

The mass of the biggest dust particle is set at 0.0001 kilograms (0.1 grams). Note that the average mass of interplanetary dust particles is much, much smaller than this, around 0.000000001kg.

For simplicity, 1-G of acceleration is set to 10 meters/second squared.

OK, here we go....

To be safe from any damage a STRIKER vessel must have an armor rating at least 5 greater than the penetration of the weapon. So an armor-40 hull can withstand a penetration-35 weapon. To get a penetration of 35 you need 3 demo points or 3kg of TNT. So that's the maximum explosion an armor-40 hull can withstand.

3kg of TNT gives you 1.254E7 Joules of energy. Putting this into our formula for velocity gives:

Velocity (m/s) = square root of (1.254E7)/(.5)x(0.0001)) = 5.0E5 meters/second, or roughly 500,000 meters per second, or 500 kilometers/second, which works out to about 0.167% of lightspeed. A Traveller ship accelerating at 1-G will reach this speed in about 13.9 hours.

Note: Ships with factor-1 armor can safely reach about 2.26% of lightspeed, or about 6780 kilometers/second. A ship armored to factor-15 can safely reach a maximum speed of about 60% of lightspeed.

Now let's look at Book 2 travel times. According to what was just calculated, a 1-G ship can accelerate in a straight line for almost 14 hours before it gets to its maximum safe speed. However, the Book 2 travel times all assume a turnover at the halfway point and constant deceleration to the endpoint. A 1-G ship is said to take 17.6 hours to reach safe jump distance from a large gas giant, so even this will not cause an unarmored ship to reach its max safe speed, as this only implies 8.8 hours of acceleration. However, any further distance on the Book 2 table (journeys to near neighbor worlds or further) would require that the 1-G ship stop accelerating after 14 hours and coast until it gets close and then have 14 hours of deceleration. This would increase the travel time quite a bit and make insystem microjumps more attractive.

It only gets worse for unarmored ships with higher acceleration. They will reach the max safe speed even faster and so have longer coasting times. A 6-G ship would reach max safe speed in little more than 2 hours of acceleration and would have to coast even when trying to reach safe jump distance from a small gas giant. This seems inefficient. I would think that ships of higher acceleration (say, 3-Gs or higher) would have reinforcement on their front and rear hull aspects to allow safe use of their higher acceleration. The longest travel distance given the Book 2 table is 1 billion kilometers. A 6-G ship covers that in 2.9 days. Let's round that up to 3 days so it was accelerating for 1.5 days. At 6-Gs over 1.5 days you get to a speed of 7,776 kilometers per second. To withstand a dust impact at this speed you need just over factor-1 armor.

I suspect that ships of 3-G acceleration and higher have the equivalent of factor-1 armor on their bow and stern aspects.
Code:
Max speed tables:

V=sqrt(KE/(0.00001)

HG	STRIKER	cm	Demo	KE		V		V
armor	armor	steel	points	(joules)	(m/s)		(%c)
0	40	33.6	3	1.25E+07	5.01E+05	0.16693312
1	60	190	550	2.30E+09	6.78E+06	2.260285134
2	64	269	1550	6.48E+09	1.14E+07	3.794440377
3	67	349	4000	1.67E+10	1.83E+07	6.095535707
4	70	453	27500	1.15E+11	4.79E+07	15.98262946
5	72	539	27500	1.15E+11	4.79E+07	15.98262946
6	74	640	27500	1.15E+11	4.79E+07	15.98262946
7	76	761	100000	4.18E+11	9.14E+07	30.47767854
8	77	830	100000	4.18E+11	9.14E+07	30.47767854
9	78	905	100000	4.18E+11	9.14E+07	30.47767854
10	79	987	100000	4.18E+11	9.14E+07	30.47767854
11	80	1080	375000	1.57E+12	1.77E+08	59.0197707
12	81	1170	375000	1.57E+12	1.77E+08	59.0197707
13	82	1280	375000	1.57E+12	1.77E+08	59.0197707
14	83	1400	375000	1.57E+12	1.77E+08	59.0197707
15	84	1520	375000	1.57E+12	1.77E+08	59.0197707
16	85	1660	375000	1.57E+12	1.77E+08	59.0197707
17	86	1810	500000	2.09E+12	2.04E+08	68.150161
18	87	1970	500000	2.09E+12	2.04E+08	68.150161
19	88	2150	500000	2.09E+12	2.04E+08	68.150161
20	89	2350	1000000	4.18E+12	2.89E+08	96.37888197
21	90	2560	1000000	4.18E+12	2.89E+08	96.37888197

HG	Velocity
armor	(percent lightspeed)
0	0.1669
1	2.2603
2	3.7944
3	6.0955
4	15.983
5	15.983
6	15.983
7	30.478
8	30.478
9	30.478
10	30.478
11	59.020
12	59.020
13	59.020
14	59.020
15	59.020
16	59.020
17	68.150
18	68.150
19	68.150
20	96.379
21	96.379
 
In this thread, there was mention of M-drives producing a feild to guard against radiation. Such a feild would create a particle field around the ship. Wouldn't that deflect or decrease the effects these dust particles have because of the ionized particles around the ship?

I say this because there was a Discovery Channel program that spoke of the need of generating a magnetic field around the ship to protect the ship from radiation (this field would be akin to the magnetic feild around our planet.) during inter system flight. Paticles of dust traveling through space may or may not carry a positive or negative change (out of my realm of knowledge) which could be used to push aside the particles as the ship travels through normal space...
 
In this thread, there was mention of M-drives producing a feild to guard against radiation. Such a feild would create a particle field around the ship. Wouldn't that deflect or decrease the effects these dust particles have because of the ionized particles around the ship?

No, the field would be electrons. No effect on debris, only radiation.
 
Your welcome.

So how large is that slop anyway?
Five or Ten percent would cover barbettes and allow jump capable shuttles of 90 to 95 dTons.

Can my 200 dT ship actually be 220 dT (+10%)?
That extra 20 dT of cargo would really help out on those tight budget months. :)


Now that is just plain wrong. A pilot earns 5x as much and a Pilot-Emperor standard of living just smacks of Imperial Elitism. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!! CHARGE THOSE SHIPS AND TAKE BACK WHAT THEY HAVE STOLEN!!! :devil:

Soc x250cr/mo is the "standard" upkeep in Mega... which means being a crewman is equivalent to up to Cr3750 a month... making the upkeep equivalence + Pay for a gunner some Cr4750 or so a month, and the pilot just shy of KCr10. So it's only twice as much...
 
They would use a plasma:

I saw an experiment about 5 years ago where an irregularly shaped iron model was exposed to a stream of hydrogen plasma. The plasma clings to the iron shape and completely coats it to a fairly uniform thickness. It was fascinating to watch. At the time it reminded me of the 'Jump bubble' and 'Crystaliron hulls' (or iron asteroids)

Perhaps we now know what all that extra PP hydrogen is for. :)
 
Soc x250cr/mo is the "standard" upkeep in Mega... which means being a crewman is equivalent to up to Cr3750 a month... making the upkeep equivalence + Pay for a gunner some Cr4750 or so a month, and the pilot just shy of KCr10. So it's only twice as much...

Ok, thank you for the explanation.

I am not quite sure that it is completely valid. Would you count the cost of life support on the ISS as part of the annual salary of an Astronaut and the Launch costs as commuting expenses, and conclude that astronauts have the same standard of living as Bill Gates? [some Hyperbole, but it makes the point.]

It's those Transportation costs that are a killer ... at $4000 to $10,000 per kg to LEO, the cost of a loaf of bread on the ISS is ... ;)
 
Code:
Max speed tables:

V=sqrt(KE/(0.00001)

HG	STRIKER	cm	Demo	KE		V		V
armor	armor	steel	points	(joules)	(m/s)		(%c)
0	40	33.6	3	1.25E+07	5.01E+05	0.16693312
1	60	190	550	2.30E+09	6.78E+06	2.260285134
2	64	269	1550	6.48E+09	1.14E+07	3.794440377

Terrific stuff!
Thank you.

One small question, How sure are you about the armor thicknesses? I was always a little unsure whether the errata was just changing the equivalent thickness of Armor-0 or if the entire armor progression was intended to start at 40.

It was just something that always seemed a little less clear than I would have liked.
 
Terrific stuff!
Thank you.

One small question, How sure are you about the armor thicknesses? I was always a little unsure whether the errata was just changing the equivalent thickness of Armor-0 or if the entire armor progression was intended to start at 40.

It was just something that always seemed a little less clear than I would have liked.

The former; it's a unifying step. For example, smallcraft and vehicles have lower armor values.
 
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