The Reserve, Reserves, and Reservists of the IN

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
SO a Subsector Duke, who may be kept in the dark for all sorts of reasons, (the least sinster is communication lag) can pull vital Sector resources to deal with a local problem at the expense of the Sector?

No because sector resources fall under the mandate of the sector Duke.
The subsector Duke can only command locally assigned Imperial forces - he can't call up the squadrons from a neighbouring subsector. But if fleet elements are present in his subsector he may command them until such a time as the sector Duke issues over-ruling orders.

OK so in our example above, lets place the Task Force at Mille Falcs, (I forgot to place the Task Force when I described it.) and lets assume that the orders from Glisten arrive first, we recall all the patrols, organize and provision the Task Force for movement, sned a dispatch boat to both Glisten and Mora that says this is the direction that we are moving and out expected timetable.

The orders from Mora pass the information copy to Mora in transit. (They cross in the mail.) The Courier arrives at Mille Falcs from Mora after we have already departed and an additional Courier arrives at Glisten at about the same time saying that Fleet HQ is taking the Task Force, thank you for your cooperation. Fast transit to Pax Rulin by the TF takes 3 weeks, more likely one month. (Refueling time.) The Task Force is then scattered on aggressive Anti Piracy Patrols. The Courier from Mora, and a second from Glisten would catch up with the Task Force about two weeks after it was scheduled to arrive at Mille Falcs.

If the orders were cut 1 week before the information copy to Fleet HQ of the Task Force's movement arrives on Mora, (routine dispatch, goes by courier or X-Boat?) then the Sector's War deployment is delayed by at least 2 months, more likely 3+ months because the patrols have to be recalled.) And that assumes that you don't get conflicting orders from the Duke of Glisten saying "hold while I get confirmation."

I hope the Zhodani are willing to delay the start of the war while the chain of command gets sorted out, forget about the redeployment schedule.

)

Why do you think it takes so long to assemble the Colonial reinforcements in FFW?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Why do you think it takes so long to assemble the Colonial reinforcements in FFW?

I hadn't even gotten into the mess of Colonial forces. I was talking about an Active Duty Imperial Navy Task Force.

According to that paradign. The Marquis Mille Falcs would exert Control of the TF while it was assigned there. So would Count Mertactor, assuming there is such a thing, which since there is no Duke 268, it makes sense, while it is in his County. As would the Duke of Glisten, the Duke of the Spinward Marches, The Arch Duke of Deneb, the Emperor and the Military Chain of Command. How do you organize and mobilize active duty sector resources in such a mess?

Especially with communication lags it would never, ever work.

That is OK there is another reason it couldn't work, it is called Span of Control but that is for later.

We have to resolve the normal chain of command before we can discuss Span of control

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
So what you are saying that, in practise a military unit has to answer to not one but 7 commanders? (Baron, Count, Subsector Duke, Sector Duke, Arch Duke, Emperor, and military traditional chain of command) In addition to any idiot running around with a warant?

It's not me saying it, it's Loren Wiseman and Jon Zeigler - I just agree with them
And no, the Imperial squadrons don't answer to anyone. It takes a subsector Duke to order around fleets, a planetary noble would only be able to command Imperial forces on or in orbit around his world - providing he isn't countermanding the orders of a superior noble.
It's then up to the ship's Captain to say sorry, I'm already acting at the behest of Duke such and such.
Once a war kicks off all Imperial forces are activated under the sector Duke's Imperial Mandate and a lower rank noble can't interfere - without a warrant that is

With communication lags, this situation means the military will usually be sitting around on its butt while the chain of command sorts itself out. You don't have to worry about military coups, you will have one just to sort out the chain of command.

The chain of command is perfectly clear. Once war starts standing orders would be to follow plans drawn up for fleet assembly, and then follow the commands of the fleet Admiral, whose authority is from the sector Duke. All lesser nobles would be ignored.
In peacetime it's a different matter.
The squadron commanders must:

consider the twists and turns of the noble heirarchy when carrying out their duties, especially in times of peace when political considerations trump military ones.

Sorry, that makes no real military sense. Local forces, local commanders. Imperial Forces, normal military chain of command, with the Generals and Admirals and the Emperor at the top. Nothing else would realistically work.

But the military must be ordered to combat by their political masters, the nobles.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I hadn't even gotten into the mess of Colonial forces. I was talking about an Active Duty Imperial Navy Task Force.

Sorry I should have said Reserve Fleet/Colonial forces

According to that paradign. The Marquis Mille Falcs would exert Control of the TF while it was assigned there.

During peace time, yes. Unless the TF wwas under direct orders from a higher ranking noble to undertake a mission and is just in transit through Mille Falcs.

So would Count Mertactor, assuming there is such a thing, which since there is no Duke 268, it makes sense, while it is in his County.

Again, yes. The Count of Mertactor could send a courier to demand some service of the TF. But it takes a week to get there and a week for the fleet to jump.
Juggling, remember?

As would the Duke of Glisten,

Yep, the Duke of Glisten can command any Imperial forces within his Duchy. It's another two week turnaround to redeploy though.
This is one of the reasons that Han's idea for a Duchy Navy is a good one in my opinion

the Duke of the Spinward Marches,

with five weeks to get the orders there by jump 6 courier

The Arch Duke of Deneb,

Once Norris is appointed, yes.

the Emperor

of course, if he even knows where the fleet is in the first place

and the Military Chain of Command.

No, the military chain of command does not decide when the fleets sre mobilised - this would be like the Admiral in command of the US 7th fleet deciding to attack China. The civilians order the fleets to action then the miliary chain of command decides operational issues.

How do you organize and mobilize active duty sector resources in such a mess?

It's not a mess if you take a look at the big picture. Local nobles can command locally available Imperial forces but must difer to those up the noble hierarchy.

Especially with communication lags it would never, ever work.

With the fleet elements drilled to jump to assembly points in the event of inter-polity hostilities it will work. With the clear understanding that the sector Duke's authority trumps all others, it works.

That is OK there is another reason it couldn't work, it is called Span of Control but that is for later.

We have to resolve the normal chain of command before we can discuss Span of control

The nobles (with some exceptions)don't command the fleets in battle, that's up to the officers of the fleet commanders.
The nobles are the civilian authority that legitimises the actions of the military.
During peacetime things are a little confused, but with weeks required to send out orders it makes more sense to have the squadrons at the disposal of the planetary and subsector nobles.
By the time a planetary noble comminicated with the subsector Duke even it may be too late to commit the forces to action.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />and the Military Chain of Command.

No, the military chain of command does not decide when the fleets sre mobilised - this would be like the Admiral in command of the US 7th fleet deciding to attack China. The civilians order the fleets to action then the miliary chain of command decides operational issues.
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually deployement of Squadrons, Task Forces and Fleets is operational matters. Especially the choice of which fleet to deploy to deal with a mission proposed by the civilian chain of command.

The President tells the Secretary of defense that he wants the Korean Nuclear material production facility hit. THe Secretary of Defense tells the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the Joint Chiefs sit down with their staffs and work out plans. A list of possible plans is put together and boiled down to each of the Chief Of Staffs of the various services submits his pet plan. The Chairman reports to the Secretary that they have a couple of choices for the President and provides the plans, and usually a recommendation. (The Joint Chiefs may or may not be present to brief the President.) The President is briefed and he chooses a plan or decides that he doesn't like any of the plans or chooses not to act at all. Once the President chooses a plan and says go the individual military commanders are given their orders and mobilize neccessary forces. Then execute the plan.

That is the normal cycle of operation. Once the plan is approved then the Theatre commander is briefed, usually in conjunction with the, in the case of North Korea, Commander Pacific Fleet, I Corps, XVIII Airborne Corps, and probably SAC. III Corps may be informed as well depending on the actual plan. It is then up to the individual commanders to make it happen. Civilian authority rarely, if ever gets involved in decisions as to which units will carry out the mission or be tasked.

If each and every Noble from the Emperor down to the Baron can just decide to alter military deployments the Imperium would either fall apart, be routed by an enemy, or undergo another Military Coup. You have taken responsibility away from the hands of the Admirals. No good can come from that.

Now in my interpretation of, and combination of the apparently contradictory background. Where there is an Imperial Navy, a Imperial Naval Reserve and Colonial Navies then the chain of command seems to work better. In peace time the Imperial Navy is controlled by the Grand Admiral of the Sector. Under him are two Fleet Admirals. One for the Active Duty component and the other for the reserves. In time of peace both of these are responsible for the Imperial assets assigned to their command. They are also responsible for contingency planning, to include integrating Colonial Naval forces into their chain of command.

Below that are the Colonial elements. These are raised locally (With either equipment they manufactured or purchased.). They answer to the Local political aparatus, until or unless these units are brought into, in times of crisis, war or disaster, Imperial Service.

If for example the Duke of Glisten wants forces that answer to him then he builds a Subsector Fleet out of local resources. If a Count needs a Navy then he builds one out of local resources to cover the cluster. If a Marquis or Baron requires a fleet then they build or buy one out of the local economy. (Generally SDBs and Monitors.)

In this case control by the Imperium of the Navy is either going to be the Sector Admiral or the Domain Admiral with civilian command being exercised, "in the name of the Emperor by wither the Arch Duke or the Sector Duke.

That works better as far as a reality command structure goes. Too many fingers in the pie and there wouldn't be enough pie left to eat.

 

[mike wightman]

During peacetime the sector Duke authorises the use of the military at the sector level.

The subsector Duke, during peacetime, can authorise the deployment of Imperial forces within his subsector.

A planetary noble can authorise the use of any local Imperial unit, again during peactime.

Providing the unit isn't under orders from a noble higher up the heirarchy, i.e. a fleet acting on the orders of the Duke of Regina can't be then given countermanding orders by the Baron of Wochiers, or the Count of Efate (if either exists )

At the start of the Fifth Frontier war you have a situation where the Duchy of Regina is facing the might of the Zhodani. Do the fleets just sit still while word is being sent to Delphine? Or the Emperor?

Who declares war?
The local fleet Admiral or the local Emperor - because that's what the local high noble is in this situation, he has the full authority to act in the Emperor's name.

In the real world. Imagine Cuba invades Florida. Does every USA military unit then act on the orders of its unit commander?
The civilian administration has to give the authority for the military to act.

Same thing for the Imperium.

If we go by your chain of command the Imperials would have lost the Fifth Frontier war while they wait for authority to mobilise from either the sector level or higher up.

It requires subsector scale local involment for the simple reason of the communication delay.

 

[Hal]

Something to consider about real life militaries:

A Captain outranks a Lieutenant at all times right? But unless a captain is in the chain of command for that field of operation - a captain can not go up to a lieutenant from another unit, and order the lieutenant to do what the captain wants that clearly conflicts with the orders of the chain of command.

Point blank?

Ducal navies (nice term to use outright) are raised, commanded, and provisioned by Dukes - each of his own subsector. The Sector Duke commands all of the Imperial Naval units OUTRIGHT. The subsector Navies, until they are imperialized, are strictly subsector only. Once Imperialized, they are fit into the command structure as "reserve" forces under the command of the Reserve Admiral. Since he is supposed to be a liason officer between the Imperial Navy and the subsector Navies - he is kept in the loop of ALL activity subject to a time lag communications lag.

But here is where it gets interesting...

The Imperial Mandate has specific rules under which it is invoked. A lowly FBI agent does not have the right to "federalize" any given Sheriff's office or police force. He can't even break into their chain of command and wield powers normally given to the higher ups of the police forces. He is however, authorized to act with the authority of the Federal agency in times of emergency.

So - the ONLY way I can see this is that each Noble has a Mandate of sorts, but that the Subsector Duke controls and/or delegates who amongst his "staff" has what control. Until then, the local Nobility go through their chain of command, who in turn ends up being at the top of TWO chains of command. The Imperial navy being one chain, and the Nobility being the other. *IF* you ascribe to subsector navies being in reality (Traveller reality!!!) ducal navies, the issue of chain of command is easily enough resolved.

That is how I see the MT chain of command schematic in REBELLION SOURCEBOOK, and how it resolves the issue of too many chiefs not enough braves situation outlined in the posts above.

This is why I see the "Imperialization" aspect to be something that happens only under specific circumstances. The funny thing is? There is but ONE individual who holds an office in TWO chains of command. Since he's both the CiC of the Imperial forces as well as the subsector forces, who is going to argue if he says "take a unit from one chain of command under me, and move it to my other chain of command"?

Now - the trick is to determine what precisely are those chains of command.


Ok, why don't you guys pick ONE subsector to work with, detail the Dukes, Barons, etc - and figure out how many potential members of the chain of command need to be identified?

 

[The Oz]

I'm thinking that regular Imperial Navy forces operate (peacetime or wartime) under the orders of their military superiors who take their orders from the Domain Archduke and Sector Duke, who act in the name of the Emperor. Usually it would be the Sector Duke giving the orders, which would be fairly general in nature (keep piracy to a miniumum, watch the Zhodani, etc). Regular Navy forces operating in some subsector Duke's territory do =not= take direct orders from him, anymore than a modern Navy destroyer captain would take orders from the Governor of a state whose waters he happened to be sailing in. Now, the local Navy commander had better listen closely to the subsector Duke and consider doing what he says if her orders permit, because while the subsector Duke cannot court-martial the Navy commander or directly punish her the subsector Duke =can= order his own people (Colonial Navy commanders, other local nobles, local law enforcement, etc) to not cooperate with the Navy commander. At the least this would make shore leave less than fun and could hamper the Navy in its mission.

In peacetime Colonial Navy/subsector Navy/reserve fleet/Duchy Navy units (as far as I'm concerned these are all the same thing) are under the command of the subsector Duke who can order them around as he wishes. The one major restriction on them (besides not attacking Imperial interests/forces) is that they shouldn't leave their own subsector/patrol areas without a really good reason. In wartime most (usually not all) of the Colonial squadrons will be Imperialized as a "Reserve Fleet" which will come under the military chain of command just like a regular Navy unit. What remains of the Colonial forces/subsector navy/etc will be left for the subsector Duke to command for local defense and patrols.

In a purely tactical situation (an enemy raiding force attacks a star system with both unImperialized Colonial forces and some Regular Imperial Navy (or even Imperialized Colonial Navy) forces the senior naval officer present (no matter which "Navy" he's serving in at the moment) will take tactical command of =all= naval forces in that system for the purpose of fighting the battle.

On an operational level, a Navy fleet commander sent to defend a subsector from attack does not take orders from the subsector Duke, not does she give orders to the Duke. They have to work together. Think of it as like NATO: if there had ever been a war, the German government could not have given orders to the British Army units deployed in Germany, or vice versa. If either side feels they are not getting enough cooperation they have to work up through their own chain of command until they get to someone who can send orders to cooperate down the =other= chain of command. Since both chains of command converge at the Sector Duke/Domain Archduke it's not that far to go, if really necessary.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Corridor also has the 213th fleet in Subsector J. Bringing the total in that case to 21.

But Subsector F only has one regular fleet, the 59th. So it's 'only' 20.

BTW the "Named Fleets" are generally, though it does state clearly not always, named for the Sector. The numbered fleets each belong to a named fleet. Are you saying that there are two named fleets in Corridor sector?

Yep, and apparently they're both named Corridor fleet. The relevant quote is from p. 27 of Rebellion Sourcebook:

"The Imperial Corridor Fleet (appropriately stationed in Corridor sector) is composed of the Imperial 16th, 27th, 41st, and 70th Fleets."

Obviously the author got mixed up somehow.

Or is the curious double numbering of the inhabited end of Corridor Sector the second Named Fleet?

A few paragraphs later it says that The [Sector] Fleet consists of one numbered fleet from each subsector of said sector (apparently the reserve fleets are not included). The example is the Alpha Crucis Fleet which consists of the 80th and the 313th Fleet, the two fleets shown on the map as being the fleets stationed in subsector A and B respectively.

As for chains of command. Miliatry chains of command branch from the top down. There can be no branching going from bottom to top. That way quickly leads to problems. When dealing with a military those can be very serious problems.

Think of the subsector dukes as hereditary governors. If you look at how the British organized their colonies, you'll find all sorts of special circumstances. True, often the governor had a military commision included in the appointment, but not always. Even if he didn't have a commision he had the authority to 'request' the admiral stationed there to go root out those pirates or assign a ship to patrol that strait or provide an escort for a convoy. I don't know if that counts as being in the chain of command, but it would be a remarkably stupid admiral who refused such a request, so the difference would be purely technical.

The thing is, even when the governor had a military commision too, the local admiral was still under dual lines of authority. The governor could request him to perform tasks within his 'area of operation', but he couldn't order him to, say, transfer a ship to another station. The Admiralty, OTOH, could order him to detach ships.

Unity of command is an admirable concept, but divided command is not as inconceivable as you think.

For example, in the United States, the Chain of command goes from the President, to the Secretary of Defense (Both, by Constitution, Civilians), to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (General or Admiral), to the Chief of Staff of the various branches, (Again General or Admiral. One each for Army, Navy and Airforce.) then down the chain of command through various commands, all the way down to the individual, Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman.

Are you saying that an Ambassador cannot tell the officer in charge of the Embassy guards what to do? (Note that I didn't say 'give him an order')

While there is a Secretary of the Army, Secretary of the Navy, Secretary of the Air Force, they advise the Secretary of Defense and can occasionally speak for him/her, they are not actually in the chain of command.

So when the Secretary of the Navy wants an admiral to do something, he invariable has to ask the Secretary of Defense to order the admiral to do it? He cannot speak directly to the admiral?

The only role that the Dukes could play, unless you have Ducal Navies/Fleets, is in an advisory role to the Emperor and, if the Emperor allows it pass his orders to the local chain of command.

I disagree. Think of the Governor-General of India. He was authorized by Parliament to raise local troops, but he was also able to issue commands to those elements of the King's Army that were stationed in India (Or rather, he could ask the Captain-General to give the orders). Several Governors-General were their own Captains-General, though.

I can see where the Dukes would be like the Secretaries of the Army, Navy, and Airforce.

Wrong analogy. They wouldn't be the equivalent of presidential/royal advisors, because they wouldn't be able to advise in a timely fashion. They are the equivalent of governors because the Emperor cannot transmit orders to their territories in a timely fashion.

but they wouldn't have direct control or authority over the Commands in their Duchy. The Chain of Command Chart in The Rebellion Sourcebook reflects that. It lists them as "Nobel Supervision."

Or as I like to call it 'Civilian oversight'. I don't mind assuming that Norris' naval authority in the FFW boardgame is a mistake, but I do think that a subsector governor would have some influence on what happens in his duchy.

Otherwise the orders from the Admirals above you are just that, orders and no matter how much the Duke, may or may not like those orders the Duke's opinion can't change those orders. The Duke might have enough political pull to have you cashiered or end your career, or might be able to have you transferred. However violating your actual orders could have much more dire consequences.

"Technically, only higher ranking naval officers can give orders; as a practical matter, nobles insinuate themselves into the channels of command. A good admiral knows when to follow which orders, and how to gracefully avoid the orders he shouldn't follow." [RS, p. 27]

In other words, there are times when an admiral can follow the orders of someone who is not technically in the chain of command without getting into trouble.

Basically I think the situation in the Imperium is simply a lot less clear-cut than in a modern 21st Century democracy.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually a Duchy being the smallest interstellar government isn't correct. The Counts are responsible for clusters.

No, they're associated with clusters. Just as marquises are associated with worlds. That doesn't mean they have any governmental authority (Although a duke may delegate some of his authority to his counts).

I don't have the quote handy, but somewhere in Library Data (A-M) it says something about interstellar government beginning at the subsector level (as usually I suggest interpreting that to mean the duchy level).

Therefore, if we are going to have Duchies we should also have Counties.

As someone else pointed out recently, every rule in the Imperium seems to have it's exceptions. I wouldn't balk at an autonomous county or two here and there giving the lie to the abovementioned quote, but as a general rule the duchy would be the smallest interstellar governmental unit.

...On a smaller scale there are other Interstellar entities, hence the Government Code 6. The clearest example from CT being Garda Vilis, being ruled by Vilis (Adventure 7, Broadsword).

Do these other entities have Navies? CLearly they do.

And clearly the author of th abovementioned quote didn't consider them to be worthy of the name 'interstellar government'. All those multi-world member systems are comparatively small fry and apparently counts as having system navies only.

Vilis has an Interstellar Navy, though it clearly isn't big or impressive.

No argument there, but it would be regarded as a system navy.

The more prosperous Counties would have a local navy,

That does not follow. True, they could have, but evidently they don't. HG specifically speaks of three tiers: Imperial Navy, Subsector Navies, and System Navies. Not IN, Subsector Navies, County Navies, and System Navies.

...and depending on the worlds of the County, these can be at least as impressive and/or modern as other Subsectors' Ducal Fleets.

No argument that some counties could have impressive navies if they were allowed to. I'm just saying that I don't think they're allowed to (Although no doubt there is an exception or two somewhere in the Imperium).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Back in the age of sail, before instant communications, (and actually instant reliable communications is fairly recent) the local commanders still only had one chain of command. (At least the successful ones.) In some cases that included a local Govenor, but in those cases the local military did not also answer to the high command back in the home country.

That's just not true. Orders from home could always supercede orders from the local authority.

Usually you had Military Govenors, who were in charge of both teh civilian aspects of teh situation but also fitted nicely within the chain of command. (Spanish conquest of most of Latin America being the easiest example to research.)

What you will find if you research the Spanish administration of Latin America after the conquest is that all colonies had both a viceroy/governor and a captain-general. Sometimes the same person held both positions, but certainly not always.

Each had a fleet, even though Cortez burned his ships, soldiers and civilians they were responsible for. The chain of command was clear.

Cortes usurped the authority of the appointed governor and used much of the first gold he gathered to buy the King's forgiveness...

...the same has to be true of the Imperial Navy or the resulting conflicts and confusion would have caused the Imperium to collapse long before the 1100s.

I disagree with the opinion you've expressed here.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
YOu are the Commodore in charge of a heavy task force consisting of 1 BatRon (Battlerider), 1 BatRon, 4 CruRon, 1 CruRon (Carrier) and associated escorts and auxillaries.

Ohm I think you'd be at least a rear admiral, probably a vice admiral, possibly even and admiral to command such a task force. But that by the way...

[The Duchess of Glisten and the Grand Admiral of the Marches both order you about].

Now if these orders arrive simultaneously, which do you follow?

The Sector Admiral's of course. (There is no Grand Admiral of the Marches and there hasn't been for 500 years).

If they don't arrive simultaneously do you stop following one to follow the other?

If the Sector Admiral's order arrived first, you keep following them. If the Duchess' 'request' arrived first, you stop following that and start following the sector admiral's when you get those.

Do you split your forces and therefore disobey both?

No.

Do you follow the Duke's orders and chase pirates and possibly lose a Subsector, potentially the war, or do you go into position at Strouden, ignore the Duke's and according to the "Duke is the local representative of the Emperor" thoughts, commit treason?

It's not treason. The Sector Admiral's authority outweighs that of the Duchess.

Remember Norris needed the Warant to assume command. Santanocheev was in command before Norris received the Warant.

That's because Santanocheev was the acting sector admiral[*], so he outranked Norris. You, OTOH, is a mere vice adimral, so the Duchess 'outrank' you.


[*] The 'acting' part is my interpretation, not canon.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I hope the Zhodani are willing to delay the start of the war while the chain of command gets sorted out, forget about the redeployment schedule.

)

You seem to be under the impression that there is an idea solution for all possible circumstances. There isn't. There is, indeed, a risk that the Zhodani might get lucky and catch the Imperial with their pants down due to information lag. But the operative word here is 'lucky'. Due to the same information lag the Zhodani could just as easily arrive at a time where the redeployments just happened to work out fine for the Imperials. History is full of examples of local commanders who had to operate without adequate information. You just have to take your best guess and hope for the best.


Hans

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by The Oz:
In peacetime Colonial Navy/subsector Navy/reserve fleet/Duchy Navy units (as far as I'm concerned these are all the same thing) are under the command of the subsector Duke who can order them around as he wishes. The one major restriction on them (besides not attacking Imperial interests/forces) is that they shouldn't leave their own subsector/patrol areas without a really good reason. In wartime most (usually not all) of the Colonial squadrons will be Imperialized as a "Reserve Fleet" which will come under the military chain of command just like a regular Navy unit. What remains of the Colonial forces/subsector navy/etc will be left for the subsector Duke to command for local defense and patrols.

In a purely tactical situation (an enemy raiding force attacks a star system with both unImperialized Colonial forces and some Regular Imperial Navy (or even Imperialized Colonial Navy) forces the senior naval officer present (no matter which "Navy" he's serving in at the moment) will take tactical command of =all= naval forces in that system for the purpose of fighting the battle.

On an operational level, a Navy fleet commander sent to defend a subsector from attack does not take orders from the subsector Duke, not does she give orders to the Duke. They have to work together. Think of it as like NATO: if there had ever been a war, the German government could not have given orders to the British Army units deployed in Germany, or vice versa. If either side feels they are not getting enough cooperation they have to work up through their own chain of command until they get to someone who can send orders to cooperate down the =other= chain of command. Since both chains of command converge at the Sector Duke/Domain Archduke it's not that far to go, if really necessary.

Lets take this a step further. Until a fleet is actively "Imperialized" - such a ducal fleet does not in fact serve under the highest Ranking fleet officer in the event of a raid upon a star system at the time both fleets are present. Chain of command is preserved at ALL times. Until imperialized, a ducal fleet is separate from the Imperial Fleet and does not answer to it.

Essentially what it boils down to is the area of operational command. If it isn't in your chain of command nor is it in your operational sphere - it is not yours to order.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Hal:
Something to consider about real life militaries:

A Captain outranks a Lieutenant at all times right? But unless a captain is in the chain of command for that field of operation - a captain can not go up to a lieutenant from another unit, and order the lieutenant to do what the captain wants that clearly conflicts with the orders of the chain of command.

Actually the Captain can give that order. And the Lieutenant must follow it. However it is generally not done outside the chain of command. There are circumstances where the chain of command is not used, those circumstances are usually few and far between though. There are two kinds of authority in the military, command authority and general military authority. To avoid the problems, especially with communication lags, that I have already discussed (having things where they don't belong or when they are needed elsewhere) it is usually not done except for minor things, like "Private, pick up that piece of paper." Though I have seen a Colonel cause a unit, not in his chain of command, to move because he wanted that piece of ground for his command post. Which is why you have to be careful with how many people have that kind of authority. Especially if they haven't come up through the ranks. I have seen too many Lieutenants mess up that way, usually to be squashed, (generally out of earshot of the privates and sergeants, but not always) by your Captain, their Captain or someone's Lieutenant Colonel. (And thinking of that last circumstance always brings a smile to my face.

Though that is another story.)

Point blank?

Ducal navies (nice term to use outright) are raised, commanded, and provisioned by Dukes - each of his own subsector. The Sector Duke commands all of the Imperial Naval units OUTRIGHT. The subsector Navies, until they are imperialized, are strictly subsector only. Once Imperialized, they are fit into the command structure as "reserve" forces under the command of the Reserve Admiral. Since he is supposed to be a liason officer between the Imperial Navy and the subsector Navies - he is kept in the loop of ALL activity subject to a time lag communications lag.

But here is where it gets interesting...

The Imperial Mandate has specific rules under which it is invoked. A lowly FBI agent does not have the right to "federalize" any given Sheriff's office or police force. He can't even break into their chain of command and wield powers normally given to the higher ups of the police forces. He is however, authorized to act with the authority of the Federal agency in times of emergency.

So - the ONLY way I can see this is that each Noble has a Mandate of sorts, but that the Subsector Duke controls and/or delegates who amongst his "staff" has what control. Until then, the local Nobility go through their chain of command, who in turn ends up being at the top of TWO chains of command. The Imperial navy being one chain, and the Nobility being the other. *IF* you ascribe to subsector navies being in reality (Traveller reality!!!) ducal navies, the issue of chain of command is easily enough resolved.

That is how I see the MT chain of command schematic in REBELLION SOURCEBOOK, and how it resolves the issue of too many chiefs not enough braves situation outlined in the posts above.

This is why I see the "Imperialization" aspect to be something that happens only under specific circumstances. The funny thing is? There is but ONE individual who holds an office in TWO chains of command. Since he's both the CiC of the Imperial forces as well as the subsector forces, who is going to argue if he says "take a unit from one chain of command under me, and move it to my other chain of command"?

Now - the trick is to determine what precisely are those chains of command.


Ok, why don't you guys pick ONE subsector to work with, detail the Dukes, Barons, etc - and figure out how many potential members of the chain of command need to be identified?

Now isn't that what I just did?

It is also what my layout of the Navy of a Subsector does, avoid all those nasty potential entanglements before they happen.

The other situation with every noble having control of all imperial forces within his/her sphere is the situation that every professional service person hates. An armchair general making military decisions, when they have no clue. The political "military experts" and "military scientists" that haven't spent a day in uniform deciding how best to employ a military force. Let the Generals and Admirals fight the wars, that is what they are for. Yes civilian control of the military is important and should give strategic direction in the broadest terms. But keep them out of the deployment decisions.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
So what you are saying that, in practise a military unit has to answer to not one but 7 commanders? (Baron, Count, Subsector Duke, Sector Duke, Arch Duke, Emperor, and military traditional chain of command) In addition to any idiot running around with a warant?

It's certainly not what I would say. Frankly, I think Jon went too far with giving the Imperial Mandate to barons, marquises, and counts, but now that it has happened, I'll try to go along with it. I would say that in theory a naval unit might have to answer to all those, but in practice it only has to answer to the local duke and to the Sector Admiral, corresponding to the civil and the military authority. Just those two.

Don't forget that the exercise of the Imperial Mandate is only supposed to be in case of emergency. Any baron floating around would know better than to interfere with the chain of command under normal circumstances.


Hans

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
I hope the Zhodani are willing to delay the start of the war while the chain of command gets sorted out, forget about the redeployment schedule.

)

You seem to be under the impression that there is an idea solution for all possible circumstances. There isn't. There is, indeed, a risk that the Zhodani might get lucky and catch the Imperial with their pants down due to information lag. But the operative word here is 'lucky'. Due to the same information lag the Zhodani could just as easily arrive at a time where the redeployments just happened to work out fine for the Imperials. History is full of examples of local commanders who had to operate without adequate information. You just have to take your best guess and hope for the best.


Hans </font>[/QUOTE]But the Zhodani, with their unified command structure, would be better equipped to take advantage of this view of a confused command structure of the Imperial Navy. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes lucky gets you. But the big thing to remember that if you get lucky you have to be prepared to use that luck. You also have to realize that in combat and in life itself you make your own luck.

Napoleon is reported to place great faith in people being lucky. When an important promotion or assignment would come up for one of his generals he would state something to the effect, yes, yes I know he is intelligent and a great tactician but is he lucky?

When you can have civilian authority involved, sometimes at cross purposes, at 6 different levels, and impede the chain of command at all 6 of those levels then you have a major disaster waiting to happen. If you have that much potential for disaster then Murphy is sure to be there when you can't afford him most and you get that disaster.

Real world military planning, you plan for Murphy and you limit the amount of damage Murphy can do. This mish-mashed chain of command does exactly the opposite. It gives Murphy full reign.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
According to that paradign. The Marquis Mille Falcs would exert Control of the TF while it was assigned there.

No, he would have the authority to assume command if he felt that the situation warranted it. In practice he would know better than to interfere.

So would Count Mertactor, assuming there is such a thing, which since there is no Duke 268, it makes sense, while it is in his County.

He would have the authority to assume command, but he wouldn't be there, would he?

As would the Duke of Glisten, the Duke of the Spinward Marches, The Arch Duke of Deneb, the Emperor and the Military Chain of Command. How do you organize and mobilize active duty sector resources in such a mess?

Those who don't know what is going on are careful not to get involved.


Hans

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Hal:
Lets take this a step further. Until a fleet is actively "Imperialized" - such a ducal fleet does not in fact serve under the highest Ranking fleet officer in the event of a raid upon a star system at the time both fleets are present. Chain of command is preserved at ALL times. Until imperialized, a ducal fleet is separate from the Imperial Fleet and does not answer to it.

Essentially what it boils down to is the area of operational command. If it isn't in your chain of command nor is it in your operational sphere - it is not yours to order.

I disagree.

Think of the regular Imperial Navy forces and the "unImperialized" Colonial Forces as being two fleets belonging to strongly allied countries, like the US and UK in the Second World War. It would have been agreed =in advance= (and I mean, long before the war started) that in the event of such a situation ("allied" forces confronting a common enemy) that the senior officer present (of either force) would take command. Divided command in a tactical situation is just asking for trouble.

Preventing just such an occurence would be one job of the Reserve Fleet staff people: keeping things like this organized so everyone would know what to do if such a situation came up.

Now, if nobody yet knows the war has started and possibly hostile forces intrude into a star system with both Regular and Colonial (non-Imperialized) forces present you might get a squabble over who is in charge, but it'd take at least one very selfish officer to get into such a p*ssing contest, given the urgency of the situation. Could make for an interesting plot, though.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
But the Zhodani, with their unified command structure, would be better equipped to take advantage of this view of a confused command structure of the Imperial Navy.

Why would the Zhodani have a more unified command structure? I seem to remember that STRIKER set things up so that Zho officers were no more likely to be experienced than their enlisted men (you couldn't just assign all the "veteran" and "elite" quality men to officers, as you could with Imperial troops). Of course this is at a very tactical scale and things might be different at higher levels, but from what I remember of Zho culture the nobles have even more power and control than their Imperial equivalents.

After all, the Zhodani Governor is also an admiral in the FFW game, isn't he?