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The Universal Game Mechanic (revised)

Hey Fritz,

No, I didn't use that in UGM.

When Snake Eyes are rolled, a check is made for Spectacular Success.

When Box Cars are rolled, a check is made for Spectacualar Failure.

In either case, the check is Stat + Skill + Difficulty Mod. Roll this or less on 3D.

Passing the check grants you a SS after box cars are rolled. Passing this check grants you SF after box cars are rolled.

I thought you were working on your own system Fritz? Are you using UGM too? Just curious.
 
Hey Fritz,

No, I didn't use that in UGM.

When Snake Eyes are rolled, a check is made for Spectacular Success.

When Box Cars are rolled, a check is made for Spectacualar Failure.

In either case, the check is Stat + Skill + Difficulty Mod. Roll this or less on 3D.

Passing the check grants you a SS after box cars are rolled. Passing this check grants you SF after box cars are rolled.

I thought you were working on your own system Fritz? Are you using UGM too? Just curious.
 
So, you could conceivably succeed, yet get a SF if you roll snake eyes? (Or, vice versa w/ box cars?)

I'm still exploring UGM (and trying to account for those extraordinary stats). But, this SS/SF thing has me baffled. Say our intrepid hero, Joe, has skill-1, attribute-A and has to make an Impossible task. So, he rolls 6+6. He is over his attribute, so no +1, but he gets +1 for his skill and -6 for the difficulty. That adds to 7 - a failure. But, he got box cars, so he rolls to beat a 5 (10+1-6) and gets a 4. How does he fail, yet get a SS?!
 
So, you could conceivably succeed, yet get a SF if you roll snake eyes? (Or, vice versa w/ box cars?)

I'm still exploring UGM (and trying to account for those extraordinary stats). But, this SS/SF thing has me baffled. Say our intrepid hero, Joe, has skill-1, attribute-A and has to make an Impossible task. So, he rolls 6+6. He is over his attribute, so no +1, but he gets +1 for his skill and -6 for the difficulty. That adds to 7 - a failure. But, he got box cars, so he rolls to beat a 5 (10+1-6) and gets a 4. How does he fail, yet get a SS?!
 
If it were me, I'd have such an event turn the failure into a normal success.

I do SS and SF as being a roll 4 or more higher/lower than your final chance of success.
 
If it were me, I'd have such an event turn the failure into a normal success.

I do SS and SF as being a roll 4 or more higher/lower than your final chance of success.
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
(snip your example)
Hey Fritz,

I received your PM.

OK, let's look at this.

Joe is Skill-1 Attribute-A.

He's rolling an Impossible Task.

He rolls boxcars on his dice.

(An Impossible Task is -10 to the roll...you used -6.)

So, Joe's total is: 12 +1 -10 = 3. (That's the roll, plus one for skill, minus 10 for difficulty). Clearly, it's a failure, but he rolled box cars....which means a SS may have resulted.

We make the SS check (the SS check is not unlike the "possible critical hit" that happens when a 20 is rolled in d20 systems--where roll a second time to see, if indeed, a critical hit was made).

So, Joe's check is: Stat + Skill + Difficulty mod. Roll this or less on 3D.

Joe would roll 3D for this number or less: 10 +1 -10 = 1.

Obviously, Joe can't roll 1 or less on 3D, so no Spectacular Success was achieved.

Joe failed that Impossible roll.

(In fact...that roll is impossible for him to make.)

=======================================

Let's look at Joe make a different roll other than the one you used.

Joe needs to make a Difficult roll. He's Skill-2, Stat-7.

He rolls boxcars.

His total is: 12 +2 -2 = 10.

This is a success, but it might also be a Spectacular Success.

The roll is 7 +2 -2 = 7.

Joe would roll 3D for 7-, and if that roll is successful, Joe has rolled Spectacular Success.

=================================

A note on Spectacular Success. As in most official Traveller games, I've not defined what SS or SF means. In Traveller games, SS and SF and typically been left up to the GM (unlike a d20 game where SS in combat typically means double or triple damage).

So, it's up to the GM what the effects of a SS or SF are.

Maybe a SS means an extra die is rolled during combat.

Maybe SS during combat means that damage is normal, but the character who rolled the SS gets to pick hit location on the target.

Maybe SS during combat means normal damage is rolled, but one of the die is applied randomly on the target (this is the one I personally like).

Maybe SS on a non-combat roll means that the task was completed in half the usual time.

Maybe SF means a check is required (Roll DEX or less on 2D or fall off the side of the cliff!)..

...etc...

If you want SS to mean an automatic hit on an Impossible task, then so be it.

It's up to the GM.

===============================

Your example above used an Impossible task--which might not be the best example because Impossible tasks are near impossible with UGM. No matter your skill or stat, Impossible in UGM means, well, "almost-impossible".

I like task systems that clamp down on the upper level of difficulty categories. CTI did this as well--I like keeping the hard difficulty categories very, very hard.

MT doesn't do this near as well, and I wanted to make sure any task system I designed would keep the hard difficulties very, very hard to achieve.

Also note that most Traveller games are played in the Routine, Standard, and Difficult range.

Easy tasks are so easy, I can see a good argument for the GM not even calling for a roll unless the character is wounded or some other special circumstance applies.

And, task difficulties Challenging and above are very hard to obtain--only the really hard attempts at things during a game will fall into these categoies.

I mean, if a player sees that a task is Formidable, he will respect it. He'll know that it is largely possible and most likely that he will fail that roll.

But, the meat of the game lies in the Routine, Standard, and Difficult rolls (pretty much the way it does in MT).
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
(snip your example)
Hey Fritz,

I received your PM.

OK, let's look at this.

Joe is Skill-1 Attribute-A.

He's rolling an Impossible Task.

He rolls boxcars on his dice.

(An Impossible Task is -10 to the roll...you used -6.)

So, Joe's total is: 12 +1 -10 = 3. (That's the roll, plus one for skill, minus 10 for difficulty). Clearly, it's a failure, but he rolled box cars....which means a SS may have resulted.

We make the SS check (the SS check is not unlike the "possible critical hit" that happens when a 20 is rolled in d20 systems--where roll a second time to see, if indeed, a critical hit was made).

So, Joe's check is: Stat + Skill + Difficulty mod. Roll this or less on 3D.

Joe would roll 3D for this number or less: 10 +1 -10 = 1.

Obviously, Joe can't roll 1 or less on 3D, so no Spectacular Success was achieved.

Joe failed that Impossible roll.

(In fact...that roll is impossible for him to make.)

=======================================

Let's look at Joe make a different roll other than the one you used.

Joe needs to make a Difficult roll. He's Skill-2, Stat-7.

He rolls boxcars.

His total is: 12 +2 -2 = 10.

This is a success, but it might also be a Spectacular Success.

The roll is 7 +2 -2 = 7.

Joe would roll 3D for 7-, and if that roll is successful, Joe has rolled Spectacular Success.

=================================

A note on Spectacular Success. As in most official Traveller games, I've not defined what SS or SF means. In Traveller games, SS and SF and typically been left up to the GM (unlike a d20 game where SS in combat typically means double or triple damage).

So, it's up to the GM what the effects of a SS or SF are.

Maybe a SS means an extra die is rolled during combat.

Maybe SS during combat means that damage is normal, but the character who rolled the SS gets to pick hit location on the target.

Maybe SS during combat means normal damage is rolled, but one of the die is applied randomly on the target (this is the one I personally like).

Maybe SS on a non-combat roll means that the task was completed in half the usual time.

Maybe SF means a check is required (Roll DEX or less on 2D or fall off the side of the cliff!)..

...etc...

If you want SS to mean an automatic hit on an Impossible task, then so be it.

It's up to the GM.

===============================

Your example above used an Impossible task--which might not be the best example because Impossible tasks are near impossible with UGM. No matter your skill or stat, Impossible in UGM means, well, "almost-impossible".

I like task systems that clamp down on the upper level of difficulty categories. CTI did this as well--I like keeping the hard difficulty categories very, very hard.

MT doesn't do this near as well, and I wanted to make sure any task system I designed would keep the hard difficulties very, very hard to achieve.

Also note that most Traveller games are played in the Routine, Standard, and Difficult range.

Easy tasks are so easy, I can see a good argument for the GM not even calling for a roll unless the character is wounded or some other special circumstance applies.

And, task difficulties Challenging and above are very hard to obtain--only the really hard attempts at things during a game will fall into these categoies.

I mean, if a player sees that a task is Formidable, he will respect it. He'll know that it is largely possible and most likely that he will fail that roll.

But, the meat of the game lies in the Routine, Standard, and Difficult rolls (pretty much the way it does in MT).
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
I'm still exploring UGM (and trying to account for those extraordinary stats). But, this SS/SF thing has me baffled. Say our intrepid hero, Joe, has skill-1, attribute-A and has to make an Impossible task. So, he rolls 6+6. He is over his attribute, so no +1, but he gets +1 for his skill and -6 for the difficulty. That adds to 7 - a failure. But, he got box cars, so he rolls to beat a 5 (10+1-6) and gets a 4. How does he fail, yet get a SS?!
Was my reply to you above helpful?

I thought I'd take your example and go over it. The "-6" modifier indicates a Formidable task, not an Impossible one.

================================

OK...Joe is Skill-1 Stat-10.

He's makeing a Formidable roll.

He rolls 2D and gets a total of 12...boxcars.

His total on this roll is: 12 +1 -6 = 7.

This is a failure.

But, he rolled boxcars, so a SS may result.

The roll for SS is: 10 +1 -6 = 5

Joe must roll 5- on 3D to obtain a SS.

What does achieving SS mean?

Well, as I indicated above, that's up to the GM.

Do you want to make a rule where the task must be successful for the SS to be achieved? You could do that.

I wouldn't do this though, because nobody would ever roll an Impossible task then.

So, what I'm doing in my game is (using the example above) making he SS turn the roll into an automatic success.

In fact, to speed up gameplay, I wouldn't even finish adding DMs to the roll to find the total. Once I see boxcars, I'd go straight to the check to see if, indeed, SS was rolled. If t

Then, I'd take it from there.
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
I'm still exploring UGM (and trying to account for those extraordinary stats). But, this SS/SF thing has me baffled. Say our intrepid hero, Joe, has skill-1, attribute-A and has to make an Impossible task. So, he rolls 6+6. He is over his attribute, so no +1, but he gets +1 for his skill and -6 for the difficulty. That adds to 7 - a failure. But, he got box cars, so he rolls to beat a 5 (10+1-6) and gets a 4. How does he fail, yet get a SS?!
Was my reply to you above helpful?

I thought I'd take your example and go over it. The "-6" modifier indicates a Formidable task, not an Impossible one.

================================

OK...Joe is Skill-1 Stat-10.

He's makeing a Formidable roll.

He rolls 2D and gets a total of 12...boxcars.

His total on this roll is: 12 +1 -6 = 7.

This is a failure.

But, he rolled boxcars, so a SS may result.

The roll for SS is: 10 +1 -6 = 5

Joe must roll 5- on 3D to obtain a SS.

What does achieving SS mean?

Well, as I indicated above, that's up to the GM.

Do you want to make a rule where the task must be successful for the SS to be achieved? You could do that.

I wouldn't do this though, because nobody would ever roll an Impossible task then.

So, what I'm doing in my game is (using the example above) making he SS turn the roll into an automatic success.

In fact, to speed up gameplay, I wouldn't even finish adding DMs to the roll to find the total. Once I see boxcars, I'd go straight to the check to see if, indeed, SS was rolled. If t

Then, I'd take it from there.
 
Change the word impossible to formidable in his example and Fritz has made a good point (it's the -6 that is important ;) ).
I'm still exploring UGM (and trying to account for those extraordinary stats). But, this SS/SF thing has me baffled. Say our intrepid hero, Joe, has skill-1, attribute-A and has to make a Formidable task. So, he rolls 6+6. He is over his attribute, so no +1, but he gets +1 for his skill and -6 for the difficulty. That adds to 7 - a failure. But, he got box cars, so he rolls to beat a 5 (10+1-6) and gets a 4. How does he fail, yet get a SS?!
This could happen for other attribute and skill totals versus some difficulty levels - roll a natural 12 and fail, only to succeed at your spectacular success roll.

There are a couple of solutions:

to get to check for SS you have to succeed on the original roll

failure of the original roll but passing the SS roll bumps the failure to a success
 
Change the word impossible to formidable in his example and Fritz has made a good point (it's the -6 that is important ;) ).
I'm still exploring UGM (and trying to account for those extraordinary stats). But, this SS/SF thing has me baffled. Say our intrepid hero, Joe, has skill-1, attribute-A and has to make a Formidable task. So, he rolls 6+6. He is over his attribute, so no +1, but he gets +1 for his skill and -6 for the difficulty. That adds to 7 - a failure. But, he got box cars, so he rolls to beat a 5 (10+1-6) and gets a 4. How does he fail, yet get a SS?!
This could happen for other attribute and skill totals versus some difficulty levels - roll a natural 12 and fail, only to succeed at your spectacular success roll.

There are a couple of solutions:

to get to check for SS you have to succeed on the original roll

failure of the original roll but passing the SS roll bumps the failure to a success
 
Oops, posted while you did ;)

same conclusions though
file_22.gif
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
So, you could conceivably succeed, yet get a SF if you roll snake eyes?
Again, what SS and SF means is up to the GM, but yeah, I'd say what you've indicated above is true in my game.

Fromme is Stat-7 Skill-2, and he's making a Easy roll.

He rolls snake eyes.

His roll total is: 2 +3 +4 = 8

That would normally be a success on the task roll (and if we didn't use this SS roll, then every Easy roll would succeed for this character--again, that's up to GM taste. I like a little room for failure in my games.)

But, the snake eyes indicates that a Spectacular Failure (a fumble or a mishap) might be at hand.

To avoid the fumble or mishap, Fromme must roll a 3D check: 7 +2 +4 = 13.

Fromme must roll 13- on 3D to avoid the SF. Otherwise, the task is successful.


That's how I'd handle that in my game, but as I've been saying, the effects of SS and SF are up to the GM.
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
So, you could conceivably succeed, yet get a SF if you roll snake eyes?
Again, what SS and SF means is up to the GM, but yeah, I'd say what you've indicated above is true in my game.

Fromme is Stat-7 Skill-2, and he's making a Easy roll.

He rolls snake eyes.

His roll total is: 2 +3 +4 = 8

That would normally be a success on the task roll (and if we didn't use this SS roll, then every Easy roll would succeed for this character--again, that's up to GM taste. I like a little room for failure in my games.)

But, the snake eyes indicates that a Spectacular Failure (a fumble or a mishap) might be at hand.

To avoid the fumble or mishap, Fromme must roll a 3D check: 7 +2 +4 = 13.

Fromme must roll 13- on 3D to avoid the SF. Otherwise, the task is successful.


That's how I'd handle that in my game, but as I've been saying, the effects of SS and SF are up to the GM.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Change the word impossible to formidable in his example and Fritz has made a good point (it's the -6 that is important ;) ).
I guess I don't follow the point...

It's bothersome that a total of 7, a failing task throw total, can be a SS?

I guess I don't really see a problem with that.

If we used the staggered target numbers like MT does (not the 8+ on every task), we'd be talking:

--->Formidable rolls are rolled on a 14+

--->SS is possible (check is made) when boxcars is rolled.

It's the exact same thing.

So, I don't see a problem with the "7" result having a chance of being turned into a SS if SS is indicated via the check.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Change the word impossible to formidable in his example and Fritz has made a good point (it's the -6 that is important ;) ).
I guess I don't follow the point...

It's bothersome that a total of 7, a failing task throw total, can be a SS?

I guess I don't really see a problem with that.

If we used the staggered target numbers like MT does (not the 8+ on every task), we'd be talking:

--->Formidable rolls are rolled on a 14+

--->SS is possible (check is made) when boxcars is rolled.

It's the exact same thing.

So, I don't see a problem with the "7" result having a chance of being turned into a SS if SS is indicated via the check.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
There are a couple of solutions:

to get to check for SS you have to succeed on the original roll
Again, I don't see a problem, but this wouldn't work--the reason being that Impossible would never be attained.

An Impossible roll is 2D -10 for 8+. You'd have to have a very, very high skill to obtain that roll. You'd have to have Skill-6 and roll boxcars to obtain it.

I like Impossible rolls to be very, very hard, but that's kinda crazy, don't you think?


This SS/SF thing is a check. It will only occur on a very small percentage of rolls.

I mean, 12 or 2 is roll on 2D less than 3% of the time each. And, then, a SS or SF check must be made.

So, that 3% of the time when you roll 12, you still have to succeed at a check (which is a very hard check at high difficulty)...meaning that the chance of rolling SS is less than 3% even at the easiest category.

I think I see what the issue here is, though...it's the failure on the task being a SS. That's not hitting your logic-button squarely.

I don't have a problem with this at all. But, if someone did, I'd suggest using the non 8+ task numbers. The probability is the exact same...nothing about UGM changes.

4+....Easy
6+....Routine
8+....Standard
10+...Difficult
12+...Challenging
14+...Formidable
16+...Insane
18+...Impossible

Use those targets, and the logic will probably be there for a SS.

Think of a d20 system--where a 30 is needed to hit. You can't do it without +10 in bonuses, but if there is a rule where a "natural 20" always hits....this SS/SF rule is really the same kind of thing.

I guess, if you didn't like the SS/SF rule I've come up with, then you could use something as Sig has suggested...

...Something like "roll 4+ over target, and you've rolled SS".

Likewise, SF would be "Roll 4- under target and you've rolled SF". I guess the natural ability modifier that will show up more often in these rolls will help prevent SF's.

Also, using Sig's suggesting will also lead to many, many more SF and SS happening on task rolls. SS and SF as I've set it up for UGM will only happen a very small percentage of the time.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
There are a couple of solutions:

to get to check for SS you have to succeed on the original roll
Again, I don't see a problem, but this wouldn't work--the reason being that Impossible would never be attained.

An Impossible roll is 2D -10 for 8+. You'd have to have a very, very high skill to obtain that roll. You'd have to have Skill-6 and roll boxcars to obtain it.

I like Impossible rolls to be very, very hard, but that's kinda crazy, don't you think?


This SS/SF thing is a check. It will only occur on a very small percentage of rolls.

I mean, 12 or 2 is roll on 2D less than 3% of the time each. And, then, a SS or SF check must be made.

So, that 3% of the time when you roll 12, you still have to succeed at a check (which is a very hard check at high difficulty)...meaning that the chance of rolling SS is less than 3% even at the easiest category.

I think I see what the issue here is, though...it's the failure on the task being a SS. That's not hitting your logic-button squarely.

I don't have a problem with this at all. But, if someone did, I'd suggest using the non 8+ task numbers. The probability is the exact same...nothing about UGM changes.

4+....Easy
6+....Routine
8+....Standard
10+...Difficult
12+...Challenging
14+...Formidable
16+...Insane
18+...Impossible

Use those targets, and the logic will probably be there for a SS.

Think of a d20 system--where a 30 is needed to hit. You can't do it without +10 in bonuses, but if there is a rule where a "natural 20" always hits....this SS/SF rule is really the same kind of thing.

I guess, if you didn't like the SS/SF rule I've come up with, then you could use something as Sig has suggested...

...Something like "roll 4+ over target, and you've rolled SS".

Likewise, SF would be "Roll 4- under target and you've rolled SF". I guess the natural ability modifier that will show up more often in these rolls will help prevent SF's.

Also, using Sig's suggesting will also lead to many, many more SF and SS happening on task rolls. SS and SF as I've set it up for UGM will only happen a very small percentage of the time.
 
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