Understanding Classic Traveller Combat Damage

[rancke]

In my opinion he falls unconscious and removing the pack won't help, except by making him lighter to carry. His characteristics remain at 044 until healing improves the situation.

[...]

Sucks to be them. Yep. DOA. Still DOA after his friends loot the corpse (i.e. remove his backpack )...

And that's why I've never developed excessive reverence for any game rules. IMO you should never let game rules override common sense (So arguing about what the rules REALLY say often seems completely pointless to me). Incidentally, my house rules have wounds affect performance immediately.

...of course in Traveller, with the right treatment even dead isn't buried.

Are you sure? In an ultra-tech setting (such as the OTU), I myself would certainly let the proper (and timely) medical treatment restore a character from having his stats reduced to 000 (pull him back from the brink of death ). but does those grand old CT rules actually allow that?


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

Part of the rules from the Traveller Book support your interpretation. Other parts just as strongly implies that reduced characteristics are, indeed, reduced.

You (and Wil and Dan) are the ones banking on implications. I'm just reporting what the rules say.

"Minor wounds Any wound points applied to a character which does not reduce more than one physical characteristic to zero are considered minor wounds. The character is treated as having the reduced characteristics until medical care or recovery has taken place."

We're talking about wound points. Wound points are hit points in Classic Traveller lingo. What this says is that the character's wounds remain reduced until the injured character is treated medically or the character recovers.

This plain line right here, "...a still conscious character with strength reduced from 9 to 7 would still function as if he had strength 9," tells you that you've got to treat stats at full when they are wounded.

The above is instructing you when to keep hit points at the injured level and when to allow them to return to max.

You're talking about implications. I'm talking about what the rules actually say.

Unconciousness One characteristic reduced to zero results in unconciousness for ten minutes. Upon recovery of conciousness, any wounded characteristics are placed midway between between their wounded and full levels; round fractions down.

Again, we're talking about wound points. Hit points.

What confuses you and Wil and Dan is that Classic Traveller looks at Wound Points and Characteristics as two separate things.

Just as in D&D, a character may lose 10 hit points from his total of 40, but his STR remains at 16. Classic Traveller uses the same concept, except that MWM found it clever to use stats for a dual purpose as hit points and stats.

Serious wound Two characteristics reduced to zero results in a serious wound and uncounciousness for three hours. Upon recovery of conciousness, any wounded characteristics remain at at the wounded level (or at 1, whichever is higher) until proper medical attention or recovery procedures are followed."
(Emphasis mine)

Yessir. Again, you're looking at the section of the book that speaks to wound points. A player and GM need to know how hit points are restored--how they're handled. This section tells you that.

These staterments seems to directly contradict the statements you've quoted.

They don't.

Is there a way to reconcile the two sets of statements? Why, yes, there is.

Yes, there is...you read the rules as written and realize that the wound section is instructing you how to handle wound points (hit points).

As you've expressed rather forcefully...

Because I know I'm correct.

But your claim that the rules cannot possibly be interpreted any way other than yours is, quite simply, not true.

I'm not interpreting or opininating anything. I'm simply reading the black and white text.

It is you and Dan and Wil that are assuming too much as your read the rules.

If you follow what I've said, there are no contradtions in the rules. Everything matches: What you've said above; the quotes I've highlighted; and what's said in Snapshot.



Let's see...your take has contractions.

My take, everything matches.

Hmm....I wonder who's "right"?

 

[Supplement Four]

Bullshit. Now you're just ignoring 3+ pages of posts.

I'm not ignoring anything. I read them. You and Dan and Hans are wrong.

Maybe one day you will realize that.

Given the disconnect between P36 LC ¶4 "Wounds do not affect characteristics as they are used to influence blows, swings or shots." and and p36 RC ¶9 "The number of blows and swings is based upon the individual's endurance at the beginning of the combat encounter; wounds suffered during the encounter do not reduce the total possible swings and blows, but will reduce the allowance accordingly."

That's not a disconnect. It doesn't contradict itself.

Wounds do not effect characteristics. That's true. They don't. Wounds are hit points.

Because the rest of the game is run with wound not effecting characteristics, MWM wanted to make sure you still used END as a counter for combat swings. He didn't want you starting at your character's max END if the counter had been lowered due to wounds, so he put this line in there to ensure you didn't start a blade combat round at max END if your counter was lower.

Simple as that.

Note that page 47 says that wounds in combat temporarily reduce the attribute for the duration of combat. Under Minor Wounds, it ends the paragraph with "The character is treated as having the reduced characteristics until medical care or recovery has taken place."

Yes. I covered this with Hans above.

You're reading in the wounds/healing section, and this is telling you how to treat wounds in the game. In other words, we're talking about hit points here.

Your stats, as specifically stated in the game, are considered at max even if wounded.

You've got to separate your idea that the stat and the max wound points are the same thing. They're not. Stats serve a dual purpose in CT.

The concept is akin to early D&D where ones STR-16 reamins STR-16 eventhough the character's 39 hit points dropped to 21.

That's the concept you need to "get".

And the rules are not overly clear.

Which is probably why they were clarified in Snapshot.

And, the clarification supports everything I've posited.

 

[Supplement Four]

A few question tangent to the previous discussion relating to encumbrance reducing physical stats.

OK...a welcomed "breather", if you will.

1) Say you have a character with enough encumbrance to reduce his physical stats by 1 each. He gets into a figt and takes enough damage to reduce him to 044. As per the combat rules, he goes unconcious. One of his buddies hastens to remove his knapsack, reducing his encumbrance. Is his UWP now 155, 055 or 044? Does he immediately recover from his swoon? If he does, is he suffering from a minor wound?

He remains unconscious. Removing his backpack won't miraculously revive him.

2) Same question as above, except that this time his friends don't get around to him until a few minutes after the fight is over.

He's still unconscious.

3) The encumbered character is hit by precisely enough damage to reduce his physical stats to 000. Is he dead? Does he stay dead when his encumbrance is removed? If he doesn't die, how fast does he recover?

He's dead.

It's like you, yourself, posted earlier in the thread. Encumbrance, in CT, makes it more likely the character will reach unconsciousness. An encumbered character is easier to knock out than a non-encumbered character. Likewise, he's easier to kill, too, since encumbered characters take temporary damage to their hit points.

 

[Supplement Four]

Hey guys...

What if I could show you a magazine article with an example of CT combat in it that supports everything I've been saying.

Would that do the trick to convince you about the truth of CT combat?

Or, if I post such an article, will you nay-say it, like you did the Snapshot quote, and say, "Well, that's not written by Marc Miller!"

If I posted such an article, it would be a third source pointing to me being 100% correct about CT combat.

Is it worth the trouble? Or, are you still going to be blinded to the way Classic Traveller is written?

 

[rancke]

You (and Wil and Dan) are the ones banking on implications. I'm just reporting what the rules say.

No, you're talking about how you read the rules.

"Minor wounds Any wound points applied to a character which does not reduce more than one physical characteristic to zero are considered minor wounds. The character is treated as having the reduced characteristics until medical care or recovery has taken place."

We're talking about wound points. Wound points are hit points in Classic Traveller lingo. What this says is that the character's wounds remain reduced until the injured character is treated medically or the character recovers.

You are talking about wound points. The rules are talking about the effect of wound points. The effect is to reduce characteristics. Those characteristics remain reduced until medical care or recovery has taken place.

This plain line right here, "...a still conscious character with strength reduced from 9 to 7 would still function as if he had strength 9," tells you that you've got to treat stats at full when they are wounded.

No, it tells you that you treat stats as full until the fight is over. The part that says "The character is treated as having the reduced characteristics until medical care or recovery has taken place" tells you not to treat stats at full when a character is wounded. Please explain to me just what part of the phrase "The character is treated as having the reduced characteristics" tells us to treat stats at full when a character is wounded?

The above is instructing you when to keep hit points at the injured level and when to allow them to return to max.

No, the above is instructing me to treat the character as having the reduced characteristics until he is healed.

You're talking about implications. I'm talking about what the rules actually say.

Except that you're misreading them.

Again, we're talking about wound points. Hit points.

You may be. The rules are talking about characteristics.

[More of the same snipped].

If you follow what I've said, there are no contradtions in the rules. Everything matches: What you've said above; the quotes I've highlighted; and what's said in Snapshot.

And if you follow what Wil and Dan (and now that I've had time to look at it, me too) says, there's no contraditions either. Only difference is that our interpretation is a bit more realistic (Though I won't so far as to say either interpretation is all that realisitc).

Let's see...your take has contractions.

Please back that up. Forget about your interpretation. Take our interpretation and show that it has contradictions. I don't think you can.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

You are talking about wound points. The rules are talking about the effect of wound points. The effect is to reduce characteristics.

If that's the case, you contradict other rules in the Traveller Book and Snapshot.

What I'm telling (the truth of the game, btw) you, doesn't contradict but supports to other rules in both The Traveller Book and Snapshot.

No, it tells you that you treat stats as full until the fight is over.

Quote me where it talks about the combat round being over and stats being treated differently.

Please back that up. Forget about your interpretation. Take our interpretation and show that it has contradictions. I don't think you can.

I can, easily.

You say a 777 character goes through a fight. Takes a wound so that his stats are 377, and then the fight ends. He doesn't receive medical attention.

30 min. later, he gets into another fight. You, Dan, and Wil say to begin this fight as if the his were STR-3.

This violates the rule that I've quoted several times that gives the example of a STR-9 character, reduced to STR-7 due to wounds, is still considered to have STR-9.

 

[Supplement Four]

Hans,

What about the magazine article that shows a CT combat example in a review of the game--something that completely supports what I've been saying here.

Are you going to dismiss that source as hogwash too? Or, is it worth my time to find it for you?

 

[rancke]

You say a 777 character goes through a fight. Takes a wound so that his stats are 377, and then the fight ends. He doesn't receive medical attention.

30 min. later, he gets into another fight. You, Dan, and Wil say to begin this fight as if the his were STR-3.

This violates the rule that I've quoted several times that gives the example of a STR-9 character, reduced to STR-7 due to wounds, is still considered to have STR-9.

That's not a contradiction, since we maintain that the rule is supposed to mean that you don't recalculate swings, shots, and blows after a fight has begun. But you do between fights. Where's the contradiction in that? You can be of the opinion that the interpretation is wrong, but if it's right, there's no contradiction.


Hans

 

[rancke]

What about the magazine article that shows a CT combat example in a review of the game--something that completely supports what I've been saying here.

Are you going to dismiss that source as hogwash too? Or, is it worth my time to find it for you?

That would depend on who wrote it and exactly what the article says. If it was one of the authors of of the rules and if it says what you think it says, I'd be convinced.


Hans

 

[DonM]

Ok, I've tried to dig through this discussion, to identify the item that obviously needs clarification... and I can't figure it out...

If someone can define the points of contention, I'll try to get some answers...?

 

[mike wightman]

So let's get this right.

An encumbered character can be killed more easily because encumberance lowers stats, but a character already wounded from a previous fight is treated as though they have full characteristics?

Rubbish.

I think the important thing that is being missed (the reduced characteristics from a previous fight are what you start with - the rules say so) is that the unwounded characteristic may be used for skill checks - and as a ref I'd probably use the wounded level for certain tasks.

By the way where does it actually say full stats are used?

 

[aramis]

That would depend on who wrote it and exactly what the article says. If it was one of the authors of of the rules and if it says what you think it says, I'd be convinced.


Hans

It would need to be by MWM to convince me, and would need to be absolutely clear, and cover more than JUST one firefight with the same characters showing that the wounds started with are ignored for all but further damage.

But that would be inconsistent with all other editions of Traveller which use stat damage.

 

[far-trader]

Ok, I've tried to dig through this discussion...

Masochist (but appreciated for it)

...to identify the item that obviously needs clarification... and I can't figure it out...

If someone can define the points of contention, I'll try to get some answers...?

I think (jump in and correct me if not) it boils down to:

1 - After a combat engagement ends, does injury as tracked by the temporary reduction of physical characteristics require using the temporary lower characteristics until healed? Specifically:

i) Are bonuses or penalties (for advantageous or below required) Str and Dex reassessed for the injured character at the temporary lower characteristic?

ii) Is Load recalculated at the temporary lower Str?

iii) Are skill checks which apply physical characteristics made using the temporary lower characteristic?

iv) (other cases where differences in characteristics mean something, may be inferred by the answers above)

2 - When is First Blood (the initial damage roll applied all on one random characteristic) reset? At the start of each new combat engagement? Or is it only used when the character is at their uninjured UPP level?

EDIT: oh, explanations of the reasoning behind whichever way it shakes out would be much appreciated, but I won't expect them

EDIT II: (and then I am definitely getting some sleep... ) a clarification of interrupted natural (resting) healing would be nice too, as in: do you lose the time already spent? does it have to start over from scratch? only if you injured again?

EDIT II.V: (lol) something about the recovery to half way when previously injured and then reinjured or something, in a previous post here somewhere, but my mind is toast (I'll find or figure it out later... )

(there might be more, but I'm too tired to look or think at the moment, that's a start at least, I'm sure if there were other points I've missed someone will add them... )

 

[Icosahedron]

Unconciousness One characteristic reduced to zero results in unconciousness for ten minutes. Upon recovery of conciousness, any wounded characteristics are placed midway between between their wounded and full levels; round fractions down.
Again, we're talking about wound points. Hit points.

What confuses you and Wil and Dan is that Classic Traveller looks at Wound Points and Characteristics as two separate things.

My underlines. The quote from the text mixes the terms wounds and characteristics in a single sentence. The text may or may not look at wound points and characteristics as separate things, but it isn't clear about it, hence any interpretation is just interpretation.

You say a 777 character goes through a fight. Takes a wound so that his stats are 377, and then the fight ends. He doesn't receive medical attention.

30 min. later, he gets into another fight. You, Dan, and Wil say to begin this fight as if the his were STR-3.

This violates the rule that I've quoted several times that gives the example of a STR-9 character, reduced to STR-7 due to wounds, is still considered to have STR-9.

But that quote is in the context of a single fight. The rules do not clearly state whether that situation is intended to extend beyond the fight. There are two schools of thought, both may be supported by different extracts of unclear text. Neither is definative.

But one interpretation seems to be more popular than the other. :smirk:

 

[Supplement Four]

Ok, I've tried to dig through this discussion, to identify the item that obviously needs clarification... and I can't figure it out...

If someone can define the points of contention, I'll try to get some answers...?

That would be awesome.



Here's the deal...

If you read Classic Traveller, by the book, it says that stats are used for hit points, and when a stat is lowered due to wounds, the stat is used at his full value in the game for checks and things.

This is not unlike a D&D character with 39 hit points being reduced to 21 hit points after an attack. The D&D character's strength of STR-16 remains STR-16 even though hit points were lost. Classic Traveller uses a similar concept.

For example...

A character with 777 physicals is wounded in a firefight and does not recieve medical treatment. Wound points are applied, and now his physicals are at 177.

By the book, his STR bonus or penalty for Blade Combat remains based on STR-7. All STR checks are made as if the character still had STR-7 (even though his wounded status is 177). Load is calculated as if the character still has STR-7.



This is supported, in the Traveller Book, in a few places.

Pg. 36, under THE EFFECTS OF CHARACTERISTICS: Wounds do not affect characteristics as they are used to influence blows, swings, or shots. For example, a still-conscious character with strength reduced from 9 to 7 would still function as if he had strength 9.

I think that's pretty clear.

Pg. 37, under WEIGHT: Individuals carrying sufficient weight to become encumbered have their UPP values temporarily reduced; these UPP values are used when computing wounds and unconsciousness.

Note how the rule is specifying that the lowered stat only applies to wounds (hit points), basically stating that an encumbered person is more likely to be rendered unconscious when taking damge in combat.


Also, we can look at Snapshot, which states, in its introduction, that its rules clarify and enhance Book 1 combat:

Pg. 1, Snapshot, under INTRODUCTION: Snapshot is an adaptation of the personal combat rules given in Book 1 of Traveller...the extent of the adaptation includes a conversion from a range-only system to a square-grid system, and the incorporation of both clarifications and enhancements.

Further, Snapshot provides clarification of Book 1 combat with a very clear paragraph that supports the statements in the Traveller Book:

Pg. 9, Snapshot, under WOUNDING AND DEATH: It is important to note that the marking off of wounds against characteristics has no effect on the person's abilities as dictated by the characteristics. Thus, someone with a strength 11 who sustains wounds on his characteristic is still treated throughout the game as having a strength 11. Wounding of characteristics is simply a bookkeeping system.

Notice how the example mirriors the one from the Traveller Book.





Don, the question is...

In Classic Traveller, if a character is still conscious but wounded, with stats of 777 reduced to 177, does he make STR checks and STR influenced calculations (like Load, or Blade Combat penalty/bonus) based on a STR-1 or a STR-7?



Based on the evidence above, I say the answer is: STR-7.

Dan, Hans, and Wil all think that, during later combat rounds, the answer is STR-1.

I contend that a character uses full stats until he is rendered unconscious (at which point he cannot act or move).

Dan, Hans, and Wil all contend that, during succeeding firefights, the character is treated as having STR-1 for STR checks, Load, and other STR influenced calculations.

Which one of us is correct? Which way is Classic Traveller written, barring all house rules.

We're just trying to find wich method is intended with CT.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, just noticed that the rule you are using isn't in CT 1st edition or the 1981 revised version.
It is in TTB and ST.

A clarification from Snapshot that made it into the last versions of the rules perhaps?

 

[rancke]

Pg. 36, under THE EFFECTS OF CHARACTERISTICS: Wounds do not affect characteristics as they are used to influence blows, swings, or shots. For example, a still-conscious character with strength reduced from 9 to 7 would still function as if he had strength 9.

I think that's pretty clear.

(Emphasis mine.)

Except that, if your interpretation is correct, it expressly and directly contradicts another part of the same rules, to wit:

"[...]The number of blows and swings is based upon endurance at the beginning of the combat encounter; wounds suffered during the encounter do not reduce the possible swings and blows, but wounds suffered prior to the encounter which reduce endurance will reduce the allowance accordingly.[...]"​

The allowance referred to is the allowance of blows and swings. The very same blows and swings that S4's quote expressly states are not affected by reductions in characteristics. Endurance is a characteristic. Reduced endurance do not affect the number of swings and blows during the encounter, but it does affect the number of swings and blows after the encounter.

I think that's even clearer.

Also, we can look at Snapshot, which states, in its introduction, that its rules clarify and enhance Book 1 combat:

But since a Snapshot game is a single encounter, what Snapshot has to say about what happens during a game has no bearing on what happens after a game (i.e. an encounter). And a good thing too, since one of the rules says that someone rendered unconcious during a game stays unconcoius for the rest of the game. Pretty limiting to roleplaying if "the game" did refer to anything beyond a single encounter.

Dan, Hans, and Wil all think that, during later combat rounds, the answer is STR-1.

Not quite. We think that during later combat rounds of the same encounter, the answer is 7.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

Not quite. We think that during later combat rounds of the same encounter, the answer is 7.

I represented your take accurately. Notice the question is about combat rounds that happen after the first.

 

[rust]

A short while ago I have used The Desert Environment by William Keith as a
source of informations and rules for one of my settings, and I found the en-
durance loss system most interesting and useful.

While it does not deal with combat damage, it is based upon the general en-
durance loss mechanics of Classic Traveller, and its rules seem to be much
closer to the interpretation of Aramis etc. than to the interpretation of Supp-
lement Four.

One potentially interesting sentence:
"Losses of Endurance caused by heat, thirst, and fatigue are subtracted
from the character's temporary Endurance level, whlle the results of wounds
are applied against his permanent Endurance."

The way I read (and use) it, this means that endurance loss from wounds /
combat damage is not just temporary, it is permanent until healed by the
appropriate means, and until then the reduced endurance has consequences
for encumbrance, fatigue, skill use, and so on.

Well, at least this is how we treat it ...