TNE Only: What if there was no Virus

[savage]

Not at first.

I don't think I managed to get my point across. Having Lucan see that that his uncle, aunt, and cousin have all been killed and thinking that if he kills Varian, he'll be next in line for the throne is quite a different scenario from having him see that his uncle's double has been killed and even if he kills Varian, Strephon is still out there. After all, Lucan can't count on everybody who knows about the clones having been killed or keeping their mouths shut, nor can he count on Strephon acting like a total idiot. Even the possibility that the man killed could be a double ups the risk he'd run if he kills Varian to a whole other level.


Hans

I see. Ok, interesting point, but it depends on how crazy Lucan is. If Survival Margin has Stephon making comments about Lucan. It's possible to have the Richard III scenario with Lucan. Meaning, Lucan and Dulinor could have betrayed each other. Hence, utter bitter rivalry.

IMTU For example,
"When the deed is done, call for me. I will declare a federation under my rule." Lucan

 

[savage]

Archduke Tranian Fierana Minomoru of The Gateway Domain:

- Ley Sector
- Gateway Sector
- Glimmerdrfit Reaches
- Crucis Margin

Effectively the smallest of the 7 Domains.

Where did you find it?

Without the support of the Archduke of Solomani Rim and Archduke of Sylea, i do not see Lucan's Imperium working.

 

[rancke]

Where did you find it?

It's definitely in GT:Nobles, but I'm almost sure that it's in the MT description of the assassination too.

Without the support of the Archduke of Solomani Rim and Archduke of Sylea, I do not see Lucan's rebellion working.

Acrhduke Adair is looking to the Solomani front, and the Archduke of Sylea is dead or absent (that's another of Strephon's titles). IIRC Tranian is the only archduke actually on Capital at the time.


Hans

 

[savage]

Acrhduke Adair is looking to the Solomani front, and the Archduke of Sylea is dead or absent (that's another of Strephon's titles). IIRC Tranian is the only archduke actually on Capital at the time.


Hans

Yeah i always thought it strange that the emperor needs job security and is also an archduke.

Just saying' support comes from one of two domains to be useful. Since, Old Expanse fleet responded we could assume he had the support of Adair.

 

[AndreaV]

Where did you find it?

Without the support of the Archduke of Solomani Rim and Archduke of Sylea, i do not see Lucan's Imperium working.

There are effectively five Archdukes, Tranian of Gateway, Bzrk of Antares, Ishuggi of Vland, Adair of Sol and Dulinor of Illelish (The Archduke of Sylea being the Emperor and no Archduke of Deneb having been appointed).

Dulinor has already set off on his own. Brzk and Ishuggi do so shortly thereafter, leaving Adair and Tranian. Tranian is the only Archduke (other than Dulinor) actually on Capitol when the assassination goes down. Apparently he picks Lucan as successor because in the initial chaos he thinks he is the most legitimate (being third in line and all that) and keeps supporting him because he feels honour bound to (again according to Rebellion sourcebook). Adair backs Lucan simply because he's staring down a Solomani juggernaut.

 

[whulorigan]

Where did you find it?

Without the support of the Archduke of Solomani Rim and Archduke of Sylea, i do not see Lucan's Imperium working.

MT : Rebellion Sourcebook, p.45:

ALLIES
Two major territories within the Imperium have declared unconditional allegiance to Lucan. the Domain of Gateway, and what remains of the Domain of Sol. Tranian, Archduke of Gateway, rallied early to the side of the new Emperor. Already present at Capital when the assassination occurred, Tranian participated in the preliminary search for the appropriate and legitimate heir to Strephon and made the pronouncement himself that Lucan was the proper heir. Apparently motivated by nothing so much as honor and a desire to pursue the legally correct course, he helped install Lucan at a time when the confusion created by Dulinor threatened the peace and order not only of Capital, but of the Imperium itself. Once Tranian had sworn fealty to Lucan, he felt there was no going back on his word. The loyalty and support of Tranian brings Lucan dozens of fleets, hundreds of worlds, and billions of subjects. Lucan, in turn, has magnificently rewarded this one of only two Archdukes to support the Imperium.

Adair, Archduke of Sol, never even considered not supporting Lucan. The Domain of Sol was threatened by Solomani forces long before the assassination; when word of Strephon’s death was made public along the Solomani border, their forces swept across in a concerted action that meant premeditation and planning. With Imperial forces pushed back from Terra and all along the border, it was quite clear that they could never survive without support from the main body of the Imperial Navy. Adair pulled back to the defensible Vegan Autonomous Region, giving ground only when necessary, and making the Solomani pay dearly for it. Within his defensive perimeter, he sent out his appeals to Lucan, asking, begging, demanding more forces, but always acknowledging Lucan as the legitimate Emperor. When every other Archduke but one did not support him, Lucan had to be pleased ... annoyed as well, but pleased.

 

[savage]

MT : Rebellion Sourcebook, p.45:

Thanks.
I must be tired or remembered part of it. Hmm. Had it opened and didn't even see it.

I'm not sure what magnificent reward the archdukes received.

 

[AndreaV]

Thanks.
I must be tired or remembered part of it. Hmm. Had it opened and didn't even see it.

I'm not sure what magnificent reward the archdukes received.

Tranian is Luriani (read slightly paranoid loony about genocide and extermination). He installs Lucan and then sees what he is. IMTU (the non-virus one, it's somewhere in this thread) what he wants and gets is greater autonomy for his domain and a gradual replacement of it's hierarchy with reliable nobles picked by Tranian.

 

[savage]

Tranian is Luriani (read slightly paranoid loony about genocide and extermination). He installs Lucan and then sees what he is. IMTU (the non-virus one, it's somewhere in this thread) what he wants and gets is greater autonomy for his domain and a gradual replacement of it's hierarchy with reliable nobles picked by Tranian.

I reread it last night. I had a similar approach, but loss of Sol Rim brought a succession into consideration. Over time, I just forgot about Tranian.

 

[AndreaV]

I reread it last night. I had a similar approach, but loss of Sol Rim brought a succession into consideration. Over time, I just forgot about Tranian.

The Rebellion through Luriani eyes:
Dulinor (Vilani stooge) kills Strephon, but due to an unfortunate series of events (secretly arranged by the Vilani) he can't grab the throne. Tranian is duped by the Vilani nobles into declaring Lucan Emperor. Then with the Imperium degenerating into barbarism, the Vilani quietly sneak off to wait it all out. Then on the horizon appear the K'kree Lords of Thunder and if there's one thing the Luriani can recognise, it's a bunch of deranged genocidal psychopaths. Though they too are clearly stooges brought in to do the dirty work while the actual villians, the Vilani sit it out waiting to make their move.

 

[savage]

The Rebellion through Luriani eyes:
Dulinor (Vilani stooge) kills Strephon, but due to an unfortunate series of events (secretly arranged by the Vilani) he can't grab the throne. Tranian is duped by the Vilani nobles into declaring Lucan Emperor. Then with the Imperium degenerating into barbarism, the Vilani quietly sneak off to wait it all out. Then on the horizon appear the K'kree Lords of Thunder and if there's one thing the Luriani can recognise, it's a bunch of deranged genocidal psychopaths. Though they too are clearly stooges brought in to do the dirty work while the actual villians, the Vilani sit it out waiting to make their move.

MTU. Dulinor and Lucan had a plan. Dulinor double crossed Lucan while Lucan double crossed Dulinor. Each had different motivators and each dug themselves into a deep hole.
K'Kree are crazy, but a bit more politically non-unified under the influence of subjugated races.
Vilani would have started the sale of megacorp assets prior to the deed. They did not. The Vilani kept the 3I from collapsing long ago. Solomani Rim nobles pushed for Lucan.

 

[Carlobrand]

Not at first.

I don't think I managed to get my point across. Having Lucan see that that his uncle, aunt, and cousin have all been killed and thinking that if he kills Varian, he'll be next in line for the throne is quite a different scenario from having him see that his uncle's double has been killed and even if he kills Varian, Strephon is still out there. After all, Lucan can't count on everybody who knows about the clones having been killed or keeping their mouths shut, nor can he count on Strephon acting like a total idiot. Even the possibility that the man killed could be a double ups the risk he'd run if he kills Varian to a whole other level.


Hans

A thought: if Lucan eliminates Varian in a way that can't be traced back to him, he's rid of one thorn in his side and next in line for the throne if it's a double. Worst Strephon can do is come back and say, "Thanks for keeping the seat warm." And, Lucan and Varian had just come off a heated argument over Varian having apparently stolen Lucan's girl - Lucan already has strong motive and strong feelings that could sway his judgment at a critical moment.

A second thought: as I mentioned elsewhere, even a twin will have different retinal patterns and fingerprints than the original. Either they didn't know and didn't bother to check, or they knew and - realizing it was a clone - started making plans for Strephon's return. I mentioned elsewhere that it was bizarre for Strephon not to show himself right away. (I tossed in a scenario in which Strephon's ship comes under attack as he returns and he's forced to flee and go into hiding.)

It occurs to me now, belatedly, that these two facts might work together. Maybe Strephon's entourage at Depot expected an announcement that it was a clone that had been killed and that Strephon was alive elsewhere. Instead, Lucan's taking the throne five days later and everyone at Capital is acting like it was the real Strephon - when someone there knows good and well it wasn't. That could signal Strephon and the entourage at Depot that something is amiss, that someone in the palace has decided to play a dangerous game that could well end with the real Strephon and everyone with him dead. In that scenario, Strephon and his entourage decide discretion is the better part of valor and choose to avoid the trap by laying low and heading somewhere that he can reveal himself without getting killed first. I wondered at Gushemege as a choice, but one advantage it has is that a man of Strephon's resources can manage a retreat across Reft to the Domain of Deneb if the situation calls for it.

Only thing I still can't fathom is, given the delay in Strephon's announcing, why the fleets of Gushemege and Massilia didn't strike from the flanks and crush Ilelish.

 

[mike wightman]

I like your reasoning here. I think I remember correctly that Strephon suffered a breakdown upon news of the death of his wife and daughter at the hands of one of his closest friends.

It was a while before he recovered his senses, so for a while it was the actions of his entourage that dictates his movements. With no pre-determined plan they had to make choices on the spot that had not been covered in security planning sessions.

As tot he lack of fleet movement, they too are hampered by the need to plan. Do the sector admirals really have detailed secret strategic plans for how to deploy and crush a renegade sector or two?

How much planning and assembly of a supply chain is required before you commit your fleets to a very costly and likely bloody conflict (TL15 vs TL15 ). How much intelligence must be gathered?

Another thing that always bothered me with the sweeping movement of fleets during the rebellion was the lack of consideration of the communication lag, it was almost like someone was just moving pieces around on a board rather than think of the months it takes to reorganise forces before they deploy to an unknown combat zone.

As an aside - by TL15 an autodoc would take all of 5 mins to match a Strephon retinal pattern and finger prints to a clone/body double.

 

[AndreaV]

A second thought: as I mentioned elsewhere, even a twin will have different retinal patterns and fingerprints than the original. Either they didn't know and didn't bother to check, or they knew and - realizing it was a clone - started making plans for Strephon's return. I mentioned elsewhere that it was bizarre for Strephon not to show himself right away. (I tossed in a scenario in which Strephon's ship comes under attack as he returns and he's forced to flee and go into hiding.)

The problem is as I understand it was that the original plan for the Rebellion had a very different story line from the one that developed into the Virus and TNE. Originally the Rebellion was meant to end with the Imperium splintering into a number of successor states and that the "Real Strephon" was originally intended to be an imposter (al la the False Dmitri's in Russia). The problems stem from the later retcon to the TNE timeline.

 

[mike wightman]

I think the mistake they made was trying to explain the rebellion 1116-1120 period.

Instead they should have fast forwarded to 1125 and say that stuff happened, now here is the setting as it is.

By trying to detail the 1116-1120 period they just piled one ridiculously implausible event upon another.

I didn't like the MT setting much until Hard Times came along and actually gave a purpose to adventures again, it became one of my favourite settings.

 

[savage]

... - Lucan already has strong motive and strong feelings that could sway his judgment at a critical moment.

A second thought: as I mentioned elsewhere, even a twin will have different retinal patterns and fingerprints than the original. Either they didn't know and didn't bother to check, or they knew and - realizing it was a clone - started making plans for Strephon's return. I mentioned elsewhere that it was bizarre for Strephon not to show himself right away. (I tossed in a scenario in which Strephon's ship comes under attack as he returns and he's forced to flee and go into hiding.)
...
Only thing I still can't fathom is, given the delay in Strephon's announcing, why the fleets of Gushemege and Massilia didn't strike from the flanks and crush Ilelish.

Your assuming Stephon clone had retina left to check... If they gave him a Cesear execution he may have been rittled.

He doesn't need to be attacked. He needs to think he has no one he can trust.

 

[rich4421972]

Again, I think a good bit of the setup for the Rebellion story line is meant to be taken at face value so folks can move along to 1120 and doesn't bear up under close scrutiny.

I think the Virus subplot is a very good thing because it allows players and
referees the chance to role-play a modified artificial intelligence. On the other hand, the political subplots seemed more "logical" to me because I felt that I could understand how a human feels, thinks and acts in a situation of chaos.

Role-playing a computer character is interesting because it had never been done before (at least in Traveller). Infocom simulated this possibility in their interactive fiction computer game, "A Mind Forever Voyaging." Not exactly the story of a virus but an interesting side example.


Could the Solomani be somehow related to the human populations of the Dawn League?

For gaming purposes, I like the uncertainty (of the "not holding up to scrutiny"). I read somewhere that the goal of game designer is to provide a setting wherein a story may be told. Conversely, game designers ought only to provide small pieces of that setting. IMHO, what little we know or understand about Virus gives groups more options for role-playing the Virus.

 

[rancke]

I think the Virus subplot is a very good thing because it allows players and referees the chance to role-play a modified artificial intelligence. On the other hand, the political subplots seemed more "logical" to me because I felt that I could understand how a human feels, thinks and acts in a situation of chaos.

There are pre-Virus possibilities for artificial intelligences. Off the top of my head (NB: Not canon):

1) Proto-type TL16 AIs are being built by universities and other research projects. They are not commercially viable because a very high percentage of them go insane, but the PCs may come into contact with one of the rare successful ones. (NB: Not canon).

2) The Darrians were building AIs at the time of the Maghiz. A number survived. (NB: Not canon).

3) A really powerful psionic adept may create a Psionic Gestalt in times of great emotional stress (such as when dying) and impress a computer or robot brain with (a copy of?) his concieousness. (NB: Not canon).

Role-playing a computer character is interesting because it had never been done before (at least in Traveller).

One of my regrets is that I never got to run or play Paranoia with PC robots. The rules were absolutely delightful (at least to read).


Hans

 

[savage]

There are pre-Virus possibilities for artificial intelligences. Off the top of my head (NB: Not canon):

1) Proto-type TL16 AIs are being built by universities. They are not commercially viable because a very high percentage goes insane, but the PCs may come into contact with one of the rare successful ones.

2) The Darrians were building AIa at the time of the Maghiz. A number survived.

3) A really powerful psionic adept may create a Psionic Gestalt in times of great emotional stress (such as when dying) and impress a computer or robot brain with (a copy of?) his concieousness.


One of my regrets is that I never got to run or play with Paranoia robots. The rules were absolutely delightful (at least to read).


Hans

If I may add to it.
DGP had a canon robot in their tour of the Imperium.

I was re-reading the Darrian CT book. I hadn't noticed surviving AI. Is it from that book or elsewhere. Now that is fascinating.

 

[rancke]

If I may add to it.
DGP had a canon robot in their tour of the Imperium.

I'd class Aybee as a research project, which I should have used instead of 'university project' as more generic.

I was re-reading the Darrian CT book. I hadn't noticed surviving AI. Is it from that book or elsewhere. Now that is fascinating.

I said that it wasn't canon. I've edited the post to make that clearer.

I have used Lon Geryen ("Star Explorer"), the last Darrian ship built before the Maghiz, a prototype with a fully self-aware AI in control in a couple of my JTAS Online articles, but that's not, alas, canon.


Hans