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What If...Traveller

In fact, I like "original" idea better (if it is that), where the K'Kree were involuntarily enslaved in this manner. To me that makes a more compelling story, but YMMV.


jfetters,

MM doesn't V, actually. Like you, I feel Nilsen's idea is the superior one: K'Kree were captured by Virus, enslaved, and involuntarily "borged".

The idea that the K'Kree volunteered to be "borged" is, IMHO, one of the many suspender snappers and other poor ideas in M:1248.

IIRC, the "borged" K'Kree appear not only on the TNE t-shirt but also on the cover of the TNE rule book.


Regards,
Bill
 
So, yes, there is the Core expeditions but akin the lead up to the 5yr plan (or in the case of the Zhodani - the 50yr plan)...


Kafka,

It's more like a 50 century plan in the case of the Core Expeditions.

This awesome length of time is a very critical aspect in any examination of the Consulate's dedication to the Core Expeditions. At the time of the OTU's present, the Zhodani have been launching core expeditions for five thousand years. Let me put that date some in perspective:

- The first Zhodani core expedition is launched -4000 IE
- The Vilani stop "exploration" around -4000 IE
- The Vargr invent jump drive in -3810, nearly 200 years after the 1st Expedition
- The Solomani invent jump drive in -2431, nearly 1600 years after the 1st Expedition
- The Rule of man begins in -2204, or nearly 1800 years after the 1st Expedition
- The Aslan begin using jump drive in -1999, or nearly 2000 years after the 1st Expedition
- The Long Night begins in -1776, or nearly 2300 years after the 1st Expedition
- The Third Imperium is founded in 0, or 4000 years after the 1st Expedition

When you remember that the Zhodani have been launching Core Expeditions for millennia, you'll realize that the effort isn't something as fleeting as a government policy. The Core Expeditions represent something at the heart of what the Zhodani believe themselves to be. The expeditions are core part of the Zhodani identity.

Yes, I think, I first read Wounded Colosus when I was in Prague but not having real access to the internet failed to comment then. It struck me a plausible and brilliant resolution to the crisis posed by the Rebellion but somewhat defeatist.

They were meant to be defeatist.

I've never been entirely comfortable with the "life span" of human polities in OTU history. IMHO, the "life spans" of those polities are much too long and the governments associated with those polities are far too static. Sure, a polity called "Rome" lasted from 753 BCE to 1453 CE, but the "Romes" known to Numa Pompilius, Cincinnatus, Scipio Africanus, Caeser, Augustus, Marcus Aurelius, Diocletian, Justinian, Irene, Theodora, and Constantine IX were all very different.

In my opinion the Third Imperium of the classic era was the political equivalent of a zombie. It had been originally stitched together out of disparate parts which had only the thinnest of affinities with each other. There is no compelling reason to keep a region as big and diverse as the Imperium together for the period of time it has been together. The cracks began showing as early as the Ilelish Revolt in 418.

After the First Civil War, Arbellatra and her immediate heirs bought the Imperium a few centuries. The creation of the Solomani Sphere bought more time as did the Psionic Suppressions. In fact, it's implied strongly that the Suppressions were an experiment in psycho-historical manipulation and what would the goal of such a manipulation have been but to extend the life of the Imperium? The Rim War bought some more time but, by the time Strephon was elevated to the Iridium Throne, the upper reaches of the Imperial government know the Imperium is living on borrowed time. Strephon is fixated on "carving new channels", Dulinor is mandating sweeping reforms in his Domain, and the mutterings are mounting all around them.

IMHO, the Imperium is actually dead in 1105. It's just too damn big to know that it's dead.

The Strephonic Reforms in WoCo are nothing but a band-aid on a corpse. They aren't enough to reanimate the corpse as the Third Imperium of circa 1100 IE. However, they may lead to events that will reanimate a Third Imperium of circa 1200 which will look very different from all the prior Third Imperiums just as the Rome of Marcus Aurelius looked very different from that of Caeser or Cincinnatus.

I always pictured Strephon's Third Imperium slowly morphing under the long term effects of the Strephonic Reforms into a "'federated" or "republican" Imperium within a few generations. There would be no wide scale separatism so soon after invasions by the Solomani, Aslan, Vargr, and others, but there would be a growing regional autonomy concurrent with a growth in "democratic" governance structures at the county-subsector-duchy level.

If you examine the government structure of Wilhelmine Germany, which was a "federated empire", you'll have an idea of my deliberately vague ideas concerning the post-Strephon Third Imperium. I didn't see the Third Imperium reforming as much as I saw the Third Imperium evolving and i wrote the Strephonic Reforms with that idea in mind.

Perhaps, I am naive but I took Dulinor at his word as he was quoted in the Rebellion Sourcebook with a long run objective of transforming the worlds of the Imperium into Liberal Democracies.

I don't think you're naive at all. I do think Dulinor was naive however and GDW wrote his speeches accordingly.

Like the vast majority of "reformers" and "rebels", Dulinor was a dilettante who made all the right mouth noises and then naturally failed when the time came to act. Simply put, he talked a good game. Put another way, he was all hat and no cattle.

I'm also enough of a autodidact historian and natural pessimist to realize that "liberal democracy" is not the always perfect government for all peoples in all places at all times. In some circumstances, liberal democracy is the absolutely worst government possible.

Glad to hear that the Brothers of Dulinor are alive and well out there in OTU.

Like the poor, reformers and rebels will always be with us. Also, like the poor, reformers and rebels are nearly always ineffectual.


Regards,
Bill
 
How come I frequently never know what's going on? References to material I've never heard of frequently pops into discussions i.e. M:1248 (being some kind of TNE I don't need to know) or WOUNDED COLOSSUS. Perhaps links to material would be appropriate for newbies or folk like me who quit in disgust over MT and didn't return till later (2005 in my case) with GT which I had slowly acquired after its debut.
 
E9504,

Wounded Colossus can be found at Freelance Traveller. Please be warned, it was originally posted to the TML and that shows in the rushed nature of the material. I slapped the WoCo posts together very quickly while re-reading materials from my personal slushpile. As I posted each section, I started with a recap of the previous sections. There are also many spelling and grammatical errors along with a few errors in canonical dates. I think I took all of four hours over 2 days reading, typing, and posting the material. I've never re-visited or re-written the material as the original has been propagated across the 'net. (IIRC, the last time a looked, WoCo or parts of it could be found in ~18 different places on-line. Rather scary considering how little time I took putting it together.)

The WoCo material dates from a period in which I was trying to hold my RPG group together and represents an alternate time line for the Rebellion in which Strephon doesn't flee to Usdiki.

M:1248 is a rules-free post-TNE setting written by Martin J. Dougherty. I believe you can buy it here at COTI. It should also be for sale at MJD's website.

It presents an undeniably heroic grand overview of Charted Space in 1248. All sorts of unfinished business from TNE is tackled and several mysteries solved. While MJD received a little input from Dave Nilsen, there are several aspects of M:1248 in which he independently "re-created" meta-story developments GDW had planned for TNE.

It's a good read. However, because I'm a sour old poop, I have a great many problems with several stylistic, meta-game, in-game, and canonical issues in the material.

I believe you can find a review of M:1248 at Freelance Traveller too.


Regards,
Bill
 
M:1248 is a rules-free post-TNE setting written by Martin J. Dougherty. I believe you can buy it here at COTI. It should also be for sale at MJD's website.

Nope. It's gone. The Mongoose Trav license thing killed it. You can't buy it anymore.

I have all the 1248 PDF's. Compared to trying to pick out sparse story elements from obtuse TAS entries at SJG's JTAS, it is really fun to read. In retrospect, it is probably a form of Traveller fan fiction... though it is definitely good in parts. If you are tired of the static "every day life just in the future" aspect of much Traveller material, it can be a refreshing change of pace.

The Black Curtain... the Empress Wave... the Core Expeditions... explained! Yes... something actually happens in these supplements....
 
No, no K'kree on the TNE cover.

It does look like there's a battlesuited Kafer.
 
Gents,

I think if you read through the "10 Questions to ask Dave Nilsen" thread, you find that those six legged "things" crawling on the rock on the cover of the TNE handbook are supposed to be "borged" K'Kree.

IIRC, the TNE t-shirt's art was a copy of the handbook's cover.


Regards,
Bill
 
In my opinion the Third Imperium of the classic era was the political equivalent of a zombie. [...] the upper reaches of the Imperial government know the Imperium is living on borrowed time. Strephon is fixated on "carving new channels", Dulinor is mandating sweeping reforms in his Domain, and the mutterings are mounting all around them.

IMHO, the Imperium is actually dead in 1105. It's just too damn big to know that it's dead.

[...]

I always pictured Strephon's Third Imperium slowly morphing under the long term effects of the Strephonic Reforms into a "'federated" or "republican" Imperium within a few generations. There would be no wide scale separatism so soon after invasions by the Solomani, Aslan, Vargr, and others, but there would be a growing regional autonomy concurrent with a growth in "democratic" governance structures at the county-subsector-duchy level.

There are so many things I can say about this. So many competing emotions and thoughts, tied up with the timeline.
 
I always pictured Strephon's Third Imperium slowly morphing under the long term effects of the Strephonic Reforms into a "'federated" or "republican" Imperium within a few generations. There would be no wide scale separatism so soon after invasions by the Solomani, Aslan, Vargr, and others, but there would be a growing regional autonomy concurrent with a growth in "democratic" governance structures at the county-subsector-duchy level.

This sounds like the Regency writ-large. Except with a warehouse-club pack of cans of worms.

Gents,

I think if you read through the "10 Questions to ask Dave Nilsen" thread, you find that those six legged "things" crawling on the rock on the cover of the TNE handbook are supposed to be "borged" K'Kree.

IIRC, the TNE t-shirt's art was a copy of the handbook's cover.

Looking at it now - they're four legged and like aramis notes, they look more like Kafers than K'Kree. I could see where there are some cranial similarities, but I don't think K'Kree when I look at the picture, given the number of legs. I wonder if it was the artist's interpretation and it was too late to try and fix properly...

And the t-shirt was a combination of those stylized Virus eyes from Vampire Fleets, the robo-K'Kree and I think something else... I'll scan it and get it up here later.
 
These k'kree pictures are not what I remember.

I thought there was a much better one somewhere....

These you can hardly tell what they are....

...

Explanation for the one on the cover...

The borg K'kree were turned into quadrapeds pouncers... the helmets look very k'kreeish
 
These k'kree pictures are not what I remember.

I thought there was a much better one somewhere....

These you can hardly tell what they are....

As far as I can tell, these are the only representations of K'Kree in TNE. At least correct representations. :)
 
Gents,

Dug out my TNE handbook and squinted at the cover. There are a few in-game references in the cover's illo.

- The gal in the battledress helmet is the Solee(?) herself. She's the ruler of that anti-RC pocket empire which found and somehow refurbished a few IN warships so they could become a problem for the RC. (The RC are supposed to slap down the Solee Empire with the help of Sandman and it's "kiddies".)

- The woman in the black outfit holding the odd staff and standing in front of the cityscape is none other than the Empress in the Empress Wave precursor signal. That's the "pregnant pause" scene Crockett received psionically and then imprinted in Strephon's mind.

- IIRC, the albino, four legged "things" crawling over the rock in the lower left corner are supposed to be geneered and cyborged K'Kree. What happened to other two legs I have no idea.


Regards,
Bill
 
Yep, I remember the first two references. The K'Kree reference on the cover, I don't. At some point tomorrow I may brave digging through the Nilsen thread, but it's too late at the moment.

If that's true, I like it. Mainly because the idea of creatures living and crawling around your ship in near vacuum is pretty creepy... :)
 
This sounds like the Regency writ-large. Except with a warehouse-club pack of cans of worms.


Jfetters,

The Regency came about much later than WoCo and I believe there is a subtle, yet important difference, between the Regency's reforms and the Strephonic reforms. The Regency's reforms are generally "top down" while the Strephonic reforms are generally "bottom up".

Let me try to explain.

Imagine two hi-pop worlds. Arglebargle-IX is in the OTL Regency and Bargleargle-XI is in the ATL Imperium.

Norris as the Regency says to Argelbargle-IX "You must institute representional reforms. These are your targets and you must reach them. We don't care about the specifics in reaching them, all that matters is that you do reach them". The Regency's reforms are thus targeted, intrusive, and limit a world's available options. Norris is saying that Arglebargle-IX must reform.

Strephon as the Imperium says to Bargleargle-XI "You'll now be communicating faster both with surrounding worlds and the Imperium as a whole, your region will either set up a new deliberative body or re-emphasize the existing one, and if you wish you can talk to me about the role Imperial nobles play on your planet." The Strephonic reforms are thus general, unintrusive, and merely add to a world's available options. Strephon is saying that Bargleargle-XI may reform.

Norris is mandating reform while Strephon is only providing an environment for reform. Both want to increase the number of stakeholders within their respective polities. With that goal in mind, Norris is actively creating stakeholders while Strephon is providing an environment in which stakeholders can grow.

The Strephonic reforms aren't changing the Imperium's political system directly. Instead, they're changing the environment in which that system operates. The downside to this is that reform will occur far less rapidly and sometimes not at all. The upside is that any reform will evolve in accordance with local needs and conditions and thus fit that locale far better than a reform program mandated from afar.

To paraphrase a certain infamous statement, Strephon is letting 11,000 flowers grow.


Regards,
Bill
 
There are so many things I can say about this. So many competing emotions and thoughts, tied up with the timeline.


Robject,

I'm sorry if I came across as being callous. That was not my intent.

My troubles with the political stasis apparently exhibited by the Third Imperium are long standing however. I can remember reading that old JTAS article listing all the emperors and the primary events during their reigns and asking myself "How can it have lasted unchanged for so long?"

It troubles me, just like the explicit statements in A:4 Leviathan about how the Egryn subsector is somehow terra incognito for civilians in an Imperium that has been next door for nearly one thousand years.


Regards,
Bill
 
Bill, sit there, watch the face of my watch, see its gentle motion, your growing sleepy, very sleepy.

Now Bill, there are no planets in Egryn, never have been, no secret IN bases, never have been. When you awaken all you'll remember is at mention of Egyrn you'll hear Egypt.

Now awaken

*snap*
 
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