What would you like to see changed about MGT?
- Thread starter dmccoy1693
- Start date
Depends if the LMG they are talking about fires the same round as an assault rifle. Think M16a2 firing nato 5.56mm and M249 SAW also firing nato 5.56mm. I can tell you from personal experience that the M249 SAW does not have the same accuracy at range as the H&K 91/G3 rifle.
M16 = assault rifle
G3 = rifle
M249 SAW LMG firing assault rifle rounds?
M60/MG36/MG42 LMG? firing full sized rifle rounds? or would these be classified as medium machineguns?
IMO G3 is the best infantry weapon but /shrugs
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Personal anecdotes aside, it is dubious for an LMG to be treated the same as an assault rifle for range purposes. The class of weapon commonly known as an LMG include the equivalent of the M249, but also the 7.62mm M60, MAG and similar weapons. In all cases, these weapons are fired from bipods or tripods, which make them significantly more accurate than an assault rifle. They also typically have longer barrels (even the M249 has a 20.5" barrel, making it 4.5" longer than the M4 version of the M16; the M60 has a 22" barrel; the MAG has a 24" barrel). Military doctrine typically accords these weapons a significantly longer effective range than assault rifles (1100m for the M60, 800m for the SAW, 300m for the assault rifle). So clearly, this is a fundamentally different weapons system than the assault rifle. I'd expect a Traveller game designer to know this...
And I'd argue that the performance characteristics of the M249 are sufficiently distinguishable from both assault rifles and light machineguns that the weapon deserves its own class (the "SAW" for instance).
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I wouldnt argue that sqaud automatic weapon is different than ight machine gun. Kinda brings to mind the difference between the BAR and the belt fed .30cal. I would like to throw it out there that these weapons are not always fired from a bipod or tripod and are at times used in an assault role. I would speculate that since most traveller characters will be more commando style with their lmg and less regular army the range classification is justified. Maybe what would fix this would be to add a tripod as a separate piece of gear and state that it increases the LMGs range to rifle range or what ever makes you happy. You can not just give the weapon greater range based on the fact that it can be fired from a tri-pod unless you also stipulate a range penalty for firing the weapon rambo style.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Well, given that military doctrine generally states that the effective range of LMGs is 200-300% greater than assault rifles, it seems shockingly uninformed for the author of Mercenary to give LMGs the same range as assault rifles.
Since we are generally permitted to use the common definitions of words, seems to me that the author should have explained why he chose to create a new class of weapon and use a well-defined term like LMG for it.
Since he didn't, I can only conclude that he failed to do even the most cursory research on weaponry. <shrug>
As i said it depends on firing stance and if the weapon is tri-pod bi-pod or being hip fired. If it is assumed that the LMG is being hip fired then giving the weapon the same range as the assault rifle is realistic. max range is different than max engagement range.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Does the military, any military, teach the soldier to fire an LMG etc. from the hip ala Rambo? I doubt it. I expect the standard is you set the weapon up with the bipod/tripod. Either on the ground, on a sandbag, or some other bit of stable cover.
If there is any assumption to be made it should be the reasonable standard of reality, not Hollywood. But there shouldn't be an assumption required if the book is properly done. It should be described such that it is clear. That shouldn't be too much to ask.
I was trained to be able to fire the M60 while standing by the good ol US Army. The M249 is designed to be light enough and easy enough to control that it can be used in an assault.
What do the CT rules say about firing a LMG?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Per LBB4: (it's a long description, I parapharse this summation)
Typically crew operated (firer and loader) but may be one man operated with longer (3x) reloading time. Always fired from tripod, bipod or rested. No mention of firing from the hip.
So it is CT that is wrong and unrealistic. I guess MM never read about the germans in WW2 firing the MG42 while standing by grabbing the bipod leg like a front pistol grip. There is a M60 that was built for assualt fire from a standing postion and used in viet nam. You can go to google video right now and see a guy firing a WW2 .30 machine gun from the hip.
In game design, it is often better to gloss over controversial issues, like the sharpness of swords, the fumble potential of grenades, the proper military use of condoms to protect firearms, and the slung fire of LMG's. Groups who care can add them.
The M60 can take pintel, bipod or tripod; it can have pistol or butterfly grip; it ca take a sling. It was a highly versatile MG. The design wasn't supposed to be fired slung, but it was and can be.
While I've fired M60's, it's always been from tripods, tho' with both pistol and butterfly grips. (I prefer the pistol, myself. It leaves me left hand for the belt.) So how much different is slung fire? I'd guess it's definitely a DM-1, maybe a DM-2.
The M60 can take pintel, bipod or tripod; it can have pistol or butterfly grip; it ca take a sling. It was a highly versatile MG. The design wasn't supposed to be fired slung, but it was and can be.
While I've fired M60's, it's always been from tripods, tho' with both pistol and butterfly grips. (I prefer the pistol, myself. It leaves me left hand for the belt.) So how much different is slung fire? I'd guess it's definitely a DM-1, maybe a DM-2.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Rambo never has a problem firing an M60 from the hip.
I thought he always looked silly doing it, tho.
I thought he always looked silly doing it, tho.
In my experience hip firing a M60 would be at least a DM-2 or maybe a DM -7 but reduce penalty by one for each point of strength above 7. You are not going to hit a target at 300 yards hip firing a M60 except by blind luck. The purpose of using the M60 on the move was to spray and pray while providing suppression in urban or close engagements.
The M60 kicks like a mule on crack and weighs a hefty 27 lbs dry add 5~ pounds for the belt.
As I said its not so much about aiming as it is sending rounds down range and hoping to hit the enemy. M60 on tri-pod is much more stable, accurate, and deadly at great range. I have heard of confirmed kills with the M60 at close to 1100 meters when tri-pod mounted.
Given the choice a M60 gunner would always like to be in a prepared position with the weapon on a tri-pod but thats not always possible especially in urban environments or when it is necessary to shoot and move.
