mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Even without virus the empress wave still hits..
When the Lorenverse and the OTU meet
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
NRVU = 'No Rebellion or Virus Universe'
Pronounced "Narvoo".
Sounds like my kind of place.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
For those who have such a thing in their Traveller - I for one don't.
Oh, if Marc Miller wants a 'Traveller' in it for brand purposes, then I'd suggest something else, to keep the three letter abbreviation tradition. Perhaps LTU -- Loren's Traveller Universe -- to honor Loren Wiseman as I was told 'Lorenverse' was intended to. (I'd just like an official statement to that effect).
Hans
What about:
PTU = Parallel Traveller Universe?
PTU = Parallel Traveller Universe?
That would work, until and unless a third official universe crops up.
(Same potential problem as ATU (Alternate Traveller Universe.)
What about STU for Second Traveller Universe? At least that one allows for two more alternate universes (TTU and FTU) before we run into the same problem with the Fifth Traveller Universe.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
AOTU since it is the only authorised alternative to the OTU
If there were a convergence it would not affect those subjects at all. It would not require the Lorenverse to acknowledge either one.
I'll say it again in a different way. There can be a convergence in which the Rebellion and Virus matter not a whit. NOT A WHIT. Because we can do magic. And it would be an Outside Convergence; i.e. outside of both our current canonical timelines. It would have to be LATER than 1248.
OTU, 1100 to 1114 or so.
OTU, 1115 to 1500
LTU, 1115 to 1500
* reunification after about 400 years of history *
OTU, 1500 to 1900. Both Rebellion and Virus are forgotten, their names powerless.
In short, Hans was wrong.
Joshua's comment is one example which I had not considered but is a clear option. IN FACT it is a SUPERIOR example, allowing a more sandbox-style play without destroying current timelines.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
What you are basically saying is the GATU is a completely different universe so none of the tropes from that corpus has any real say on how the OTU as it is now is presented.
Parallels that do exist are purely coincidental.
In GT there was no rebellion so no development of Virus. For the Empress Wave not to flatten the GT ATU then the point of departure is to say that the Ancients never transplanted humans to the galactic core, thus getting rid of 1248 backstory.
You need a reality manipulation to explain why the original OTU was a small ship universe, you then need another to explain the sudden appearance of HG scale ships. Then another is needed to explain why in the MT era jump drives work differently.
Then you need yet another to explain that HEPlaR was the maneuver drive of the OTU all along.
And then another to establish the technology of T5 as being the true OTU (which just so happens is contradicted by MgT first and second edition).
So is the MgT OTU also a parallel universe similar to the GT ATU? Is it a result of reality manipulation too?
Parallels that do exist are purely coincidental.
In GT there was no rebellion so no development of Virus. For the Empress Wave not to flatten the GT ATU then the point of departure is to say that the Ancients never transplanted humans to the galactic core, thus getting rid of 1248 backstory.
You need a reality manipulation to explain why the original OTU was a small ship universe, you then need another to explain the sudden appearance of HG scale ships. Then another is needed to explain why in the MT era jump drives work differently.
Then you need yet another to explain that HEPlaR was the maneuver drive of the OTU all along.
And then another to establish the technology of T5 as being the true OTU (which just so happens is contradicted by MgT first and second edition).
So is the MgT OTU also a parallel universe similar to the GT ATU? Is it a result of reality manipulation too?
What if in the 30th Century Imperial (or thereabouts), RM is imperfectly understood (similar to how Psychohistory was in the 8th Century)? Perhaps an attempt at a "minor" tweak ended very badly with radically unforeseen consequences . . . that resulted in the Rebellion/Virus timeline? Maybe the Lorenverse is the unaltered base-timeline.
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Doesn't sound as interesting when someone says it back to me. :rofl:
Instead of saying it that way, say it like this:
"GATU doesn't use two of the sandbox features that the OTU uses, namely, the Rebellion and Virus." But that of course doesn't work so easily. At this point I've lost sight of what *good* it is to have a setting in the first place. Anyone can add and subtract stuff from a setting.
The "timelines" exist for self-consistency. The LTU has the enviable position of continuing the Grand Imperium for longer than the OTU, and having a unique and interesting set of plotlines. To do harm to that would be stupid. So we have to let that run its course.
Now. Perhaps the GATU philosophy goes further. Maybe it is that the Third Imperium is "forever", as in good for ten thousand years, without a break. That is, after all, good space opera, too -- but only as history. Epic sizes tend to require epic changes, and we all know how easy it is to cause problems there.
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BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Andre Norton* and H. Beam Piper** are good resources for what you are describing here:
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crossroads_of_Time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_Crosstime
** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratime_series
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crossroads_of_Time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_Crosstime
** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratime_series
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
What if in the 30th Century Imperial (or thereabouts), RM is imperfectly understood (similar to how Psychohistory was in the 8th Century)? Perhaps an attempt at a "minor" tweak ended very badly with radically unforeseen consequences . . . that resulted in the Rebellion/Virus timeline? Maybe the Lorenverse is the unaltered base-timeline.
"I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter."
:coffeesip:
Did I just date myself?
Not counting TL 28 "do overs":
robject, as part of the "reconciliation" between timelines, I suggest these are major issues to contend with which determine when the two might line up. Not saying they could not reconcile, but when and what must occur in either universe. 1248, being one of my favorite time periods:
In the OTU
1.Empress Wave - This is a factor as it causes the break up of the Zhodani Consulate and causes disruption of electronics and such for centuries to come.. It enters the coreward Imperial sectors in the early 1200's going rimward at light speed. You would need to wait until it leaves Imperial space in OTU. If it exists in Lorenverse, there will be a time of discovery and exploration I think before reconciliation of timeline. At least you have to wait until it passes in OTU.
2.Zhodani Concord - In OTU, the Consulate is disrupted/destroyed of Empress Wave, replaced by the smaller and more manageable Concord. To line up, it has to be broken up in Lorenverse and associated impacts (Vargr/Imperial Landgrab?) or wait for the Consulate to "rise again" in OTU.
3.K'kree - In OTU the Dominate was NOT PERMANENTLY defeated at the Second Battle of Gateway Station in 1247. The 4th Imperium has around 5 years until it becomes a factor of some sort (Out of Darkness p. 133) that some Viral Entity/Charismatic K'kree rises up to start problems again. K'kree space must be disrupted in Lorenverse or cleaned up in OTU
4.Virus - is a part of OTU, with Viral Entities being granted citizenship. OTU needs to have Virus "grow up" or eliminate it. Harder to eliminate as even the "nice" Imperial Virals are not just going to lay down and die. This helps resolve point 3 in part. Or makes reconcilliation that much further in the future. So more likely Lorenverse must introduce Virus at some level at a "nicer" level.
5.Territorial claims - In OTU. the 4th Imperium disavowed ALL claims over the previous Imperiums at its inception (p.66) and its future "plans" include a limited size realm.
6.Vargr and Aslan - are major populations in the Fourth Imperium, so what allows their integration in Lorenverse.
7.The Spinward Marches - as a "Regency" or Imperial Domain whatnot is gone by 1248 in OTU, so what is the cause of break up in Lorenverse? What might happen as reconciliation post-1248 in OTU?
robject, as part of the "reconciliation" between timelines, I suggest these are major issues to contend with which determine when the two might line up. Not saying they could not reconcile, but when and what must occur in either universe. 1248, being one of my favorite time periods:
In the OTU
1.Empress Wave - This is a factor as it causes the break up of the Zhodani Consulate and causes disruption of electronics and such for centuries to come.. It enters the coreward Imperial sectors in the early 1200's going rimward at light speed. You would need to wait until it leaves Imperial space in OTU. If it exists in Lorenverse, there will be a time of discovery and exploration I think before reconciliation of timeline. At least you have to wait until it passes in OTU.
2.Zhodani Concord - In OTU, the Consulate is disrupted/destroyed of Empress Wave, replaced by the smaller and more manageable Concord. To line up, it has to be broken up in Lorenverse and associated impacts (Vargr/Imperial Landgrab?) or wait for the Consulate to "rise again" in OTU.
3.K'kree - In OTU the Dominate was NOT PERMANENTLY defeated at the Second Battle of Gateway Station in 1247. The 4th Imperium has around 5 years until it becomes a factor of some sort (Out of Darkness p. 133) that some Viral Entity/Charismatic K'kree rises up to start problems again. K'kree space must be disrupted in Lorenverse or cleaned up in OTU
4.Virus - is a part of OTU, with Viral Entities being granted citizenship. OTU needs to have Virus "grow up" or eliminate it. Harder to eliminate as even the "nice" Imperial Virals are not just going to lay down and die. This helps resolve point 3 in part. Or makes reconcilliation that much further in the future. So more likely Lorenverse must introduce Virus at some level at a "nicer" level.
5.Territorial claims - In OTU. the 4th Imperium disavowed ALL claims over the previous Imperiums at its inception (p.66) and its future "plans" include a limited size realm.
6.Vargr and Aslan - are major populations in the Fourth Imperium, so what allows their integration in Lorenverse.
7.The Spinward Marches - as a "Regency" or Imperial Domain whatnot is gone by 1248 in OTU, so what is the cause of break up in Lorenverse? What might happen as reconciliation post-1248 in OTU?
Many thanks, Nathan, for laying out the various incongruities between the two, and unresolved issues with the timeline going forward. I note that a couple of these points have to be resolved anyway for the 1900 milieu.
Highorbit_drifter
SOC-12
I can understand from a publishing viewpoint converging the timelines would make life easier. The public is free to choose whatever they want for their own TU, but Far Futures, as a publisher, needs to set out the "official" setting. It would be confusing and a straining of resources to attempt to produce material for both the OTU and the Lorenverse.
Mongoose produces all sorts of settings for their Traveller rules because that is what they do. They are supporting a rule-set, not a setting per se. So they can hire writers that want to convert their favorite setting into the Mongoose Traveller rules, because they aren't planning a lot of future support - if it sells then more suppliments, if it doesn't, let it fade and go on to something else that does sell.
In fact, it might make more sense to just license Mongoose the Lorenverse products and let them worry about retconning after the fact whatever Far Futures decides to publish. While I love the Lorenverse it obviously wasn't all that popular - if it was SJGames wouldn't have stopped supporting it. It might make Mongoose some money on future products, especially if Far Futures supports it by re-releasing the GURPS material and JTAS.
Otherwise this seems like a unfruitful distraction away from T5. From a business point of view anyway.
Mongoose produces all sorts of settings for their Traveller rules because that is what they do. They are supporting a rule-set, not a setting per se. So they can hire writers that want to convert their favorite setting into the Mongoose Traveller rules, because they aren't planning a lot of future support - if it sells then more suppliments, if it doesn't, let it fade and go on to something else that does sell.
In fact, it might make more sense to just license Mongoose the Lorenverse products and let them worry about retconning after the fact whatever Far Futures decides to publish. While I love the Lorenverse it obviously wasn't all that popular - if it was SJGames wouldn't have stopped supporting it. It might make Mongoose some money on future products, especially if Far Futures supports it by re-releasing the GURPS material and JTAS.
Otherwise this seems like a unfruitful distraction away from T5. From a business point of view anyway.
I think there was more to it than that. And the Lorenverse certainly has a following - it's not just you. And a little more publicity could increase that as well.
Your suggestion to let it develop independently (3rd party or not) is the current assumption (and Don's death doesn't change that). I just didn't know the best way to explore alternatives without stirring people up.
